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Reuben_J
Guest
So according to that argument, then you have to be like Muhammad to believe that he received the revelation of the Quran. Yeah.
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OriginalGabrielof12
Guest
Which did Jesus teach? “Love your enemies” or “Kill the infidels”? and which teaching do Muslims follow and which teaching of Jesus does Islam follow?
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Reuben_J
Guest
So Muslims believe that Wudu, which is cleansing before performing prayers, is Baptism. Thank you.
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OriginalGabrielof12
Guest
This is an interesting dichotomy. Muslims or Islam did not exist when Jesus walked the earth. Then Islam enter’s history 700 years after Jesus resurrection, and reject and or object to Jesus teachings and divine revelations. Then Muslims pretend to know about a Christianity that no True Catholic Christian in all of history never believed in.
I am trying to understand; How a Muslim pretends to know about a Christianity, that no True Catholic Christian believes in? When it is revealed that the Quran does not clarify or deny the True Blessed Trinity. Muslims raise a clarion call that the Quran rejects all forms of trinities? I can’t get a direct straight answer from any Muslim. of who revealed a heretical trinity (God, Jesus, Mary) in the Quran?
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CaptainPrudeman
Guest
Correct me if I’m wrong, but you’re asking who the Qur’an claims believes in said trinity, right?
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mhmtas63
Guest
You say God is one. Father is the God. Jesus is the God. Holy Spirit is the God. Is there not a logical flaw?
How one could believe in such absurd thought? Obstinacy make one blind!
Neither logic nor revelation support such fantastic philosophical interpretation.
It is God who peak in Qur’an directly. If you notice it can be seen very easily that the speaking is directly God. There is no any speech belongs to Muhammad. If the utterer were Muhammad so it could be very obvious to see the spken were Muhammad. It is not said “I think” or “God say” or “It is said God create” etc. The words directly come from God. It is said “I create” or “I do” or “I give” etc. The words are directly from God. A humanbeing could not speak in that way. There is a possible way that otherwise Muhammad must be the most great liar on the world. But as we know Muhammad had never lie in His life. He always were ture even before revelation. Muhammad became famous as “Muhammad-al Amin” which means trustworthy Muhammad. And if Muhammad were not so honest and sincere in His claims but there were many clever people around Him to understand. But no one could see any varnish and false deed or speak
On the other hand there is no a direct revelation and there are many philosphical interpretation.
My side is very clear!
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mhmtas63
Guest
I cannot understand what you ask. Sorry!
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mhmtas63
Guest
How many times should I say? Wudu or full ablution must not be just like Baptism. But they are parallel version and the last model. Muslims have no obligation to be Baptized but Muslims have full ablution. You should be Baptized because your prophet(I say “your prophet” because of you follow on His religious laws) taught in that way but our prophet did in another way.
Niblo
Patron
The following posts are addressed to OrininalGabrielof12.
Hello again.
You write that I have: ‘…only shown that the Quran believes that Jesus was fully human, I do not disagree with Jesus being fully human.’
Ahh, but the story doesn’t and there, for the Church - as you well know - declares that Yeshua (ʿalayhi as-salām) is both ‘truly man’ and ‘truly God’.
Allāh (subḥānahu ūta’āla) warns: ‘People of the Book, do not go to excess in your religion, and do not say anything about Allāh except the truth: the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, was nothing more than a messenger of Allāh…’ (Al-Nisa 171).
The message is clear: Yeshua is nothing more than a man. Those who say otherwise - that he is also God - are in error.
You persist in claiming that the Qur’an does not deny the Trinity. All that is required to refute this claim is the ‘Nicene Creed’; and some verses from Surahs ‘Al-Ikhlas’ and ‘Al-Ma’ida.’
As you know, the ‘Nicene Creed’ declares Yeshua to be the: ‘only-begotten Son of God.’
The message is clear: The First Person of the Trinity begets. The Second Person of the Trinity is begotten.
‘Al-Ikhlas’ is a Meccan Surah - the twenty-second to be revealed. Verses 1-4 read: ‘Say: ‘‘He is Allāh the One, Allāh the eternal. He begot no one nor was He begotten. No one is comparable to Him.’’’
Again, the message is equally clear: Allāh (subḥānahu ūta’āla) states that He has begotten no one; therefore, He cannot be the First of the three Persons of the Trinity. Moreover, He is not begotten, and therefore cannot be the Second Person. This leaves only the third Person; the Holy Spirit.
The Creed tells us that the Holy Spirit proceeds from both the Father and the Son; and that He is the one who has ‘spoken through the prophets.’
If Allāh (subḥānahu ūta’āla) is not the First Person; and not the Second - and yet is truly God - then one might say (and certain persons most certainly did) that He must be the third of these three. Perhaps the Muslims have got it wrong. Perhaps Allāh (subḥānahu ūta’āla) is really just their perverted understanding of the Holy Spirit, and they have yet to realise this. However, the Exalted denies even this possibility: ‘Those people who say that Allāh is the third of three are defying (the truth)…’ (Al-Ma’ida: 73).
Taken together, these Surahs are a denial of the Trinity. Allāh (subḥānahu ūta’āla) is not ‘God the Father’; not ‘God the Son’; and not ‘God the Holy Spirit’. He is simply God; not three Persons, but one Person.
This is the message, and it is clear enough. That is why no Muslim is a Trinitarian.
Hello again.
You write that I have: ‘…only shown that the Quran believes that Jesus was fully human, I do not disagree with Jesus being fully human.’
Ahh, but the story doesn’t and there, for the Church - as you well know - declares that Yeshua (ʿalayhi as-salām) is both ‘truly man’ and ‘truly God’.
Allāh (subḥānahu ūta’āla) warns: ‘People of the Book, do not go to excess in your religion, and do not say anything about Allāh except the truth: the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, was nothing more than a messenger of Allāh…’ (Al-Nisa 171).
The message is clear: Yeshua is nothing more than a man. Those who say otherwise - that he is also God - are in error.
You persist in claiming that the Qur’an does not deny the Trinity. All that is required to refute this claim is the ‘Nicene Creed’; and some verses from Surahs ‘Al-Ikhlas’ and ‘Al-Ma’ida.’
As you know, the ‘Nicene Creed’ declares Yeshua to be the: ‘only-begotten Son of God.’
The message is clear: The First Person of the Trinity begets. The Second Person of the Trinity is begotten.
‘Al-Ikhlas’ is a Meccan Surah - the twenty-second to be revealed. Verses 1-4 read: ‘Say: ‘‘He is Allāh the One, Allāh the eternal. He begot no one nor was He begotten. No one is comparable to Him.’’’
Again, the message is equally clear: Allāh (subḥānahu ūta’āla) states that He has begotten no one; therefore, He cannot be the First of the three Persons of the Trinity. Moreover, He is not begotten, and therefore cannot be the Second Person. This leaves only the third Person; the Holy Spirit.
The Creed tells us that the Holy Spirit proceeds from both the Father and the Son; and that He is the one who has ‘spoken through the prophets.’
If Allāh (subḥānahu ūta’āla) is not the First Person; and not the Second - and yet is truly God - then one might say (and certain persons most certainly did) that He must be the third of these three. Perhaps the Muslims have got it wrong. Perhaps Allāh (subḥānahu ūta’āla) is really just their perverted understanding of the Holy Spirit, and they have yet to realise this. However, the Exalted denies even this possibility: ‘Those people who say that Allāh is the third of three are defying (the truth)…’ (Al-Ma’ida: 73).
Taken together, these Surahs are a denial of the Trinity. Allāh (subḥānahu ūta’āla) is not ‘God the Father’; not ‘God the Son’; and not ‘God the Holy Spirit’. He is simply God; not three Persons, but one Person.
This is the message, and it is clear enough. That is why no Muslim is a Trinitarian.
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Niblo
Patron
You write: ‘The Quran makes it perfectly clear that the Word of God is God’
I can only assume (since you have not provided a source) that you are referring to the following Surahs:
'People of the Book, do not go to excess in your religion, and do not say anything about Allāh except the truth: the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, was nothing more than a messenger of Allāh, His word (‘wakalimatuhu’), directed to Mary…’ (Al-Nisa 171)
‘The angels said: “Mary, Allāh gives you news of a word (‘bikalimatin’) from Him, whose name will be the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, who will be held in honour in this world and the next, who will be one of those brought near to Allāh.’ (Al‘Imran 45).
The words ‘wakalimatuhu’ and ‘bikalimatin’ share the trilateral root ‘Kāf Lām Mīm’; which has seven derived forms. Every form denotes speech, both human and divine. The root occurs seventy-five times on the Qur’an; and on no occasion does in refer to the ‘Word’ (‘Logos’), as understood by Trinitarians.
You write: ‘Does the Quran have a problem with Jesus teaching from His humanity the ways of God?
The Qur’an has no problem with Yeshua (ʿalayhi as-salām). On the contrary, he is an honoured messenger of Allāh (subḥānahu ūta’āla).
You write: ‘There have been excommunicated Christian heretics who deny Jesus humanity before the Quran enters history, maybe it was to these heretics the Quran is addressing, who denied Jesus full humanity?’
It is a mistake to think that the Qur’an is addressing only Christian ‘heretics’. I have said before that the Qur’an addresses all notions current among the Christian community in Arabia over the period (twenty-three years) it was revealed; this includes Trinitarian notions.
By the way, I never said that the ‘Gloria’ is heretical. This is what I wrote: ‘I doubt that you will find anything ‘heretical’ in the Gloria.’…meaning that you will not disagree with it.
I can only assume (since you have not provided a source) that you are referring to the following Surahs:
'People of the Book, do not go to excess in your religion, and do not say anything about Allāh except the truth: the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, was nothing more than a messenger of Allāh, His word (‘wakalimatuhu’), directed to Mary…’ (Al-Nisa 171)
‘The angels said: “Mary, Allāh gives you news of a word (‘bikalimatin’) from Him, whose name will be the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, who will be held in honour in this world and the next, who will be one of those brought near to Allāh.’ (Al‘Imran 45).
The words ‘wakalimatuhu’ and ‘bikalimatin’ share the trilateral root ‘Kāf Lām Mīm’; which has seven derived forms. Every form denotes speech, both human and divine. The root occurs seventy-five times on the Qur’an; and on no occasion does in refer to the ‘Word’ (‘Logos’), as understood by Trinitarians.
You write: ‘Does the Quran have a problem with Jesus teaching from His humanity the ways of God?
The Qur’an has no problem with Yeshua (ʿalayhi as-salām). On the contrary, he is an honoured messenger of Allāh (subḥānahu ūta’āla).
You write: ‘There have been excommunicated Christian heretics who deny Jesus humanity before the Quran enters history, maybe it was to these heretics the Quran is addressing, who denied Jesus full humanity?’
It is a mistake to think that the Qur’an is addressing only Christian ‘heretics’. I have said before that the Qur’an addresses all notions current among the Christian community in Arabia over the period (twenty-three years) it was revealed; this includes Trinitarian notions.
By the way, I never said that the ‘Gloria’ is heretical. This is what I wrote: ‘I doubt that you will find anything ‘heretical’ in the Gloria.’…meaning that you will not disagree with it.
Niblo
Patron
You write: ‘Tell me Niblo, does the Quran reject that the Voice of God and the Word of God are two different Gods’?
I don’t understand what you mean by this. If you are referring to the ‘Voice’ as the First Person of the Trinity, and the ‘Word’ as the Second, then the Qur’an rejects this notion utterly. Please clarify.
You write: ‘The Word which created all things, became flesh and dwelt among us. Who dares to place God in a box and claim God’s Word could never create or become flesh, when the prophecies of God speak of such a Messiah who is to come. Jesus fulfilled these prophecies. Yet (the) Quran does not speak of the prophecies which God’s Word fulfilled in Jesus Christ.’
This matter lies outside the scope of our conversation. Perhaps we can return to these ‘prophecies’ once we have agreed to differ (as indeed we shall!) on the matter in hand.
I apologise for my use of the KJV (in a previous post). Force of habit. I was a Catholic for over fifty years, and during that time had many debates with evangelicals. These folk had two things in common: a visceral hatred of the Catholic Church, and an almost idolatrous devotion to the KJV. In order to have a conversation acceptable to them I needed to use the KJV. My own version was the ‘Jerusalem - Study Edition’; and is now the ‘New Jerusalem.’
In reply to another user you complain that you: ‘Can’t get a direct straight answer from any Muslim of who revealed a heretical trinity (God, Jesus, Mary) in the Quran?
Yet again you make no attempt to quote a source . I have to assume, therefore, that you are referring to this:
‘When Allāh says: “Jesus, son of Mary, did you say to people, “Take me and my mother as two gods alongside God”?’ he will say, ‘May You be exalted! I would never say what I had no right to say - if I had said such a thing You would have known it: You know all that is within me, though I do not know what is within You, You alone have full knowledge of things unseen - I told them only what You commanded me to: “Worship God, my Lord and your Lord.” I was a witness over them during my time among them. Ever since You took my soul, You alone have been the watcher over them: You are witness to all things.’ (Al-Ma’ida: 116-117)
Yeshua is being asked two things: Did he give permission for his mother to be treated as a god; and did he give permission to be regarded as a god himself.
The historian Edward Gibbon writes: ‘(The) Collyridian heretics, who flourished in the fruitful soul of Arabia, invested in the Virgin Mary with the name and honours of a goddess.’ (‘The History of the Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire; Volume 9). Yeshua denies ever giving permission for this.
Yeshua also denies giving permission to be declared God.
I don’t understand what you mean by this. If you are referring to the ‘Voice’ as the First Person of the Trinity, and the ‘Word’ as the Second, then the Qur’an rejects this notion utterly. Please clarify.
You write: ‘The Word which created all things, became flesh and dwelt among us. Who dares to place God in a box and claim God’s Word could never create or become flesh, when the prophecies of God speak of such a Messiah who is to come. Jesus fulfilled these prophecies. Yet (the) Quran does not speak of the prophecies which God’s Word fulfilled in Jesus Christ.’
This matter lies outside the scope of our conversation. Perhaps we can return to these ‘prophecies’ once we have agreed to differ (as indeed we shall!) on the matter in hand.
I apologise for my use of the KJV (in a previous post). Force of habit. I was a Catholic for over fifty years, and during that time had many debates with evangelicals. These folk had two things in common: a visceral hatred of the Catholic Church, and an almost idolatrous devotion to the KJV. In order to have a conversation acceptable to them I needed to use the KJV. My own version was the ‘Jerusalem - Study Edition’; and is now the ‘New Jerusalem.’
In reply to another user you complain that you: ‘Can’t get a direct straight answer from any Muslim of who revealed a heretical trinity (God, Jesus, Mary) in the Quran?
Yet again you make no attempt to quote a source . I have to assume, therefore, that you are referring to this:
‘When Allāh says: “Jesus, son of Mary, did you say to people, “Take me and my mother as two gods alongside God”?’ he will say, ‘May You be exalted! I would never say what I had no right to say - if I had said such a thing You would have known it: You know all that is within me, though I do not know what is within You, You alone have full knowledge of things unseen - I told them only what You commanded me to: “Worship God, my Lord and your Lord.” I was a witness over them during my time among them. Ever since You took my soul, You alone have been the watcher over them: You are witness to all things.’ (Al-Ma’ida: 116-117)
Yeshua is being asked two things: Did he give permission for his mother to be treated as a god; and did he give permission to be regarded as a god himself.
The historian Edward Gibbon writes: ‘(The) Collyridian heretics, who flourished in the fruitful soul of Arabia, invested in the Virgin Mary with the name and honours of a goddess.’ (‘The History of the Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire; Volume 9). Yeshua denies ever giving permission for this.
Yeshua also denies giving permission to be declared God.
Niblo
Patron
I close with the words of Thomas Paine:
‘I do not mean by this declaration to condemn those who believe otherwise; they have the same right to their belief as I have to mine. But it is necessary to the happiness of man, that he be mentally faithful to himself. Infidelity does not consist in believing, or in disbelieving; it consists in professing to believe what he does not believe.’ (‘Age of Reason: The Definitive Edition’).
Have a great weekend, and may the Peace of God be with you.
‘I do not mean by this declaration to condemn those who believe otherwise; they have the same right to their belief as I have to mine. But it is necessary to the happiness of man, that he be mentally faithful to himself. Infidelity does not consist in believing, or in disbelieving; it consists in professing to believe what he does not believe.’ (‘Age of Reason: The Definitive Edition’).
Have a great weekend, and may the Peace of God be with you.
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CaptainPrudeman
Guest
God is not a being in this universe. He exists outside of it, and our simple minds cannot comprehend the trinity in its fullness. Just because we can’t understand it doesn’t mean it isn’t true.
I do believe that Muhammad is a great great liar. Who told you about his being “trustworthy?” I would doubt that it came from someone outside of Islam. Simply put, I don’t believe that anything in the Qur’an said to be new or “purified” revelation from God is true at all.
One could say it was made clear because simple minds make simple lies.
Then why call Jesus a prophet at all if you’re going to trample his religious commands?
Niblo
Patron
Gandhi:
‘I became more than ever convinced that it was not the sword that won a place for Islam in those days in the scheme of life. It was the rigid simplicity, the utter self-effacement of the prophet, the scrupulous regard for his pledges, his intense devotion to his friends and followers, his intrepidity, his fearlessness, his absolute trust in God and in his own mission. These, and not the sword carried everything before them and surmounted every trouble.’ (‘Young India - periodical’ 1928; Volume 10).
William Montgomery Watt:
‘His readiness to undergo persecutions for his beliefs, the high moral character of the men who believed in him and looked up to him as leader, and the greatness of his ultimate achievement - all argue his fundamental integrity. To suppose Muhammad an impostor raises more problems than it solves. Moreover, none of the great figures of history is so poorly appreciated in the West as Muhammad.’ (Mohammad At Mecca’).
Reverend Bosworth Smith:
‘….he was Caesar and Pope in one; but he was Pope without the Pope’s pretensions, and Caesar without the legions of Caesar. Without a standing army, without a bodyguard, without a palace, without a fixed revenue, if ever any man had the right to say that he ruled by a right Divine, it was Mohammed; for he had all the power without its instruments and without its supports.’ (Mohammed and Mohammedanism’)
David George Hogarth:
‘Serious or trivial, his daily behaviour has instituted a canon which millions observe this day with conscious mimicry. No one regarded by any section of the human race as Perfect Man has been imitated so minutely. The conduct of the Founder of Christianity has not so governed the ordinary life of His followers. Moreover, no Founder of a religion has been left on so solitary an eminence as the Muslim Apostle.’ (Arabia’).
Annie Besant:
‘It is impossible for anyone who studies the life and character of the great Prophet of Arabia, who knows how he taught and how he lived, to feel anything but reverence for that mighty Prophet, one of the great messengers of the Supreme. And although in what I put to you I shall say many things which may be familiar to many, yet I myself feel whenever I re-read them, a new way of admiration, a new sense of reverence for that mighty Arabian teacher.’ (The Life And Teachings Of Muhammad).
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CaptainPrudeman
Guest
I don’t see anyone who gave a firsthand testimony. All these came from people who heard it from others that he was. Who first said Muhammad was worth trust?
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OriginalGabrielof12
Guest
Your post follows mine so I will respond to your question?
The Quran pretends to reveal a heretical trinitarian belief that never exist’s in Christianity consisting of God, Jesus and a Mary, then reject this unknown false tri-diety. then Muslims claim the Quran rejects all forms of Trinities. Yet the Quran never makes such a claim that Muslims protest against a Trinity which the Quran never rejects or clarifies to reject.
Thus I raise the question, who records or reveals this false heretical trinity in the Quran? I get no honest answer from any Muslim. The general answer thus far is God revealed the Quran.
How can God make such a blunder?
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CaptainPrudeman
Guest
I did not ask if non-Muslims said it, I asked if it originated outside Islam. You have not yet said who determined that Muhammad never lied.
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OriginalGabrielof12
Guest
That is the most outrageous false statement I ever heard.
NO Christian believes that “God the Father in human form”. I see now how confused and misinformed Muslims mistake Jesus Christ divine revelations of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
Let us be clear here; God the Father does not proceed in human form and that is NEVER a reason to believe Jesus is God. You have been misinformed in the most tragic way.
Why would you protest against a Christian faith you do not correctly understand? Is it not more wise to learn first what is believed before making false judgments about the True Catholic Christian faith? You protest against a faith that you lack the faith and understanding.
Peace be with you
Niblo
Patron
The burden of proof rests on the one making the claim.
You are claiming that the Prophet (sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam) was a liar, and untrustworthy. All you have to do now is prove it…using original eyewitness sources.
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