B
Bradski
Guest
Perhaps you can tell me where you get this imformation?
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J
Jomann
Guest
From the Church of Jesus Christ.
Search your being, your soul, and you will get a certain validation of this reality. Our souls were created to spot truth.
B
Bradski
Guest
Ah. You made it up.
J
Jomann
Guest
It’s a wager.
We can’t be both right or both wrong.
If you’re right we will never know anyway.
A
Aloysium
Guest
From the Catechism of the Catholic Church:
To the extent that we do this in our lives, we grow ever closer to God. The further we divert from this path, the deeper we fall into hell. It all begins here.
We are all different and have our own particular relationship with the world, others and God, and our particular version of heaven and hell would reflect this. The stakes cannot be higher. It’s wise that in the absence of a motivation to love, that we consider the consequences of not doing so. It is imperative that we repent and move on to do God’s will.
1059 “The holy Roman Church firmly believes and confesses that on the Day of Judgment all men will appear in their own bodies before Christ’s tribunal to render an account of their own deeds” (Council of Lyons II [1274]S 859; cf. DS 1549).
We’re called to do the right thing, to be good, loving. We’ve got the Ten Commandments for when this isn’t clear and the lies we tell ourselves sound too convincing. Ultimately, it boils down to two: to love each other as we live ourselves and God with all our being, to give back to Him what He brings into existence.
To the extent that we do this in our lives, we grow ever closer to God. The further we divert from this path, the deeper we fall into hell. It all begins here.
We are all different and have our own particular relationship with the world, others and God, and our particular version of heaven and hell would reflect this. The stakes cannot be higher. It’s wise that in the absence of a motivation to love, that we consider the consequences of not doing so. It is imperative that we repent and move on to do God’s will.
I
inocente
Guest
I think Thomas Aquinas decided when someone dies, they go to one of four places: Gehenna, where the damned are punished; Limbus parvulorum for unbaptized children; Limbus patrum for OT saints (now vacant); and Purgatory which leads to heaven.
In an economy measure, the children’s limbo was officially closed down in 2007.
V
Vonsalza
Guest
As to whether everyone in hell experiences equal torment, I don’t think the Church has commented on that in an authoritative way (but someone be sure to correct me on that if it has).
Dante started writing an interesting fiction using the assumption of a heterogenous hell somewhere around 1300. I doubt he was the first to think it.
Christ seems to hint at comparative punishment in Luke 10 "“I tell you, it will be more bearable on that day for Sodom than for that town”
-Sodom being, of course, the town of “fire and brimstone” fame.
It goes without saying that regardless what “level” one occupies in hell, it’s probably best to avoid the place altogether.
G
Gorgias
Guest
You’ve raised a couple of good issues, Mike. Here’s my take (which, IIRC, is the take of the Catholic Church) on the first one (if I get a minute later today, I’ll take on the second one, too):
The Catholic Church recognizes that sin has both an objective and subjective aspect. Objectively, there are two levels of sin – the less serious damage our relationship with God, and the more serious sever it. Subjectively, there are two considerations: whether the person recognized the sin he was committing, and whether he fully and willfully assented to it.
So, when we talk about “damnation”, what we’re really saying is that a person committed a serious sin, with clear knowledge of the gravity of its sinfulness, and in full willingness to do so, and never repented of it (them?).
We recognize that God is just, but we also assert that He is merciful. In the case you raise above, you’re really talking about someone whose knowledge – and perhaps, even, willingness to commit sin per se – doesn’t seem to rise to the level of “mortal sin.” Therefore, it doesn’t rise to the level of implying damnation.
Let’s put it another way: in civil law, there’s the maxim “ignorance of the law excuses no one”. However, in canon law, there is the notion of “invincible ignorance.” In other words, culpability for one’s sins may, in certain circumstance, be mitigated based on what a person knows (or should now), vis-a-vis the decisions they make.
So, I’m not certain your example holds: if the young man you posit dies at 18, it does not necessarily follow that he’s damned. Therefore, the conundrum you propose does not exist.
V
Vico
Guest
Reference: Denzinger: Sources of Catholic Dogma
patristica.net/denzinger/
EUGENIUS IV 1431-1447
COUNCIL OF FLORENCE 1438-1445
Ecumenical XVII (Union with the Greeks, Armenians, Jacobites)
Decree for the Greeks *
[From the Bull “Laetentur coeli,” July 6, 1439]
693 De novissimis] * It has likewise defined, that, if those truly penitent have departed in the love of God, before they have made satisfaction by the worthy fruits of penance for sins of commission and omission, the souls of these are cleansed after death by purgatorial punishments; and so that they may be released from punishments of this kind, the suffrages of the living faithful are of advantage to them, namely, the sacrifices of Masses, prayers, and almsgiving, and other works of piety, which are customarily performed by the faithful for other faithful according to the institutions of the Church. And that the souls of those, who after the reception of baptism have incurred no stain of sin at all, and also those, who after the contraction of the stain of sin whether in their bodies, or when released from the same bodies, as we have said before, are purged, are immediately received into heaven, and see clearly the one and triune God Himself just as He is, yet according to the diversity of merits, one more perfectly than another. Moreover, the souls of those who depart in actual mortal sin or in original sin only, descend immediately into hell but to undergo punishments of different kinds [see n.464].
COUNCIL OF LYONS II 1274
464 … The souls of those who die in mortal sin or with original sin only, however, immediately descend to hell, yet to be punished with different punishments. …
A
ANV
Guest
Hell is very consistent with the existence of God since God made the innocents suffer here on Earth, why wouldn’t he allow Hell to those who disobey and not follow him? Pretty much logical on that manner, for Hell to exist.
R
reggieM
Guest
People suffer unjustly for a temporary time on earth.
If they accept, with faith in God’s goodness, they go to heaven for eternal joy.
Other people cause suffering by disobeying God and not following his goodness on earth.
If they don’t repent and continue to embrace evil, they suffer in Hell for eternity.
That is the consistent logic of it.
I ask atheists, how are they going to repair all of the evil they put into the world by their own sins?
Haven’t had an answer yet to that.
V
Vonsalza
Guest
Excellent, excellent reference on the issue. Thanks for it.
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