Isn't an eternal punishment for a finite sin illogical and unjust?

[CHRISTINE77]

There can be nothing that would cause repentance after death that was not already refused before death. What “event” could occur in a timeless state that would cause repentance? On what basis would someone in hell suddenly decide to repent?

Exactly. An unrepentant person doesn’t suddenly repent when they are put in jail, either. They may rue the day they murdered that person because of the punishment, but the sentence isn’t going to make the person repent and change. Sexual predators don’t suddenly become safe once they are sentenced. Most criminals go on to offend again. It’s a rare person who becomes reformed in prison.

 

[Wannano]

If you’re truly repent that’s the very reason purgatory exists. God can forgive all your sins but you must pay the consequences of your sins.

Purgatory has levels that are more painful than anything on earth. Some levels are similar to hell but temporary.

When you’re in a state of grace while on earth all your suffering is a payment for the consequences of your sins. And suffering on earth is more valuable than suffering in purgatory.

Catholicism gives meaning to suffering. It’s the only system of thought that can do this.

Your explanation of purgatory here gives me new insight. Could you share a source to verify that what you present is actual Church teaching?

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Exactly. An unrepentant person doesn’t suddenly repent when they are put in jail, either. They may rue the day they murdered that person because of the punishment, but the sentence isn’t going to make the person repent and change. Sexual predators don’t suddenly become safe once they are sentenced. Most criminals go on to offend again. It’s a rare person who becomes reformed in prison.

We have to be careful to emphasize the ‘timeless’ nature of Heaven though. If it is ‘rare’ that a person reforms/repents in prison, that means that it is still possible.

But it is impossible to repent in Hell. . .or, for that matter, to do evil in Heaven.

Because there is no ‘time’. I know that annoys the hell out of some people, who simply cannot fathom an existence outside of time, but it is true. Infinity is not endless time, but existence beyond and out of time.

Here’s the thing. Time is a finite thing. One speaks of ‘infinite time’ but that would by definition be composed of finite parts and so it, itself, is finite. A whole which is composed of finite parts by definition is itself finite, so the whole of an ‘infinity’ which is composed of finite particles of time cannot be ‘infinite’ itself.

And we know that God truly is infinite. And we know that we will be united to Him in Heaven, or refusing to unite with Him in Hell.

But that refusal to unite does not mean that God doesn’t exist for souls in Hell. Rather, they exist exactly in a sense as the souls in Heaven. . .they see the face of God, they are aware of the thoughts of God, they are given the love of God. . .

But for the souls who choose to obey God in Heaven, seeing God’s face is blissful, hearing His thoughts is more satisfying that the greatest music, feeling His love is more than the highest and deepest love they had on earth.

While for the souls in Hell, seeing God’s face is like torture. Hearing his thoughts is like hearing awful unending noise. Feeling His love is like being burned by the hottest and unending fire.

Same conditions --different ‘receptions’, made by choice with full knowledge and consent.

Because God’s gifts to us --His Face, His thoughts, His love–are free. They exist because He exists. We cannot help experiencing them when we exist with Him, but we CAN choose how we experience them.

And once we are dead and ‘in the experience’, there is no ‘finite time’ but rather an infinite ‘now’. It isn’t a question of "I don’t have free will anymore’, it is, “I have freely chosen and I continue to choose”, all experienced as ‘now’, yet encompassing an array of unending mutual exchanges of either God’s love/our love, or God’s love/our rejection.

And remember, those who choose hell never go there unknowingly. They never go unwillingly. They never ‘don’t quite realize’ or ‘change their minds’ because there is nothing TO change. God is timeless, God is endless, God is changeless, and we one day will be united to Him so we will be the same.

God is not unfair. But expecting Him to abide by what you as a human, a finite, fallible human, think ‘must’ be true about life after death, when you have never experienced it, and when it contradicts what He Himself has told you (through Scripture and the Church). . .that’s unfair.

 

[CHRISTINE77]

We have to be careful to emphasize the ‘timeless’ nature of Heaven though. If it is ‘rare’ that a person reforms/repents in prison, that means that it is still possible.

But it is impossible to repent in Hell. . .or, for that matter, to do evil in Heaven.

God is not unfair. But expecting Him to abide by what you as a human, a finite, fallible human, think ‘must’ be true about life after death, when you have never experienced it, and when it contradicts what He Himself has told you (through Scripture and the Church). . .that’s unfair.

I was only using the prisoner on earth as an example for people who think someone would be truly sorry for their sins after death. I understand the timelessness of the afterlife and you are absolutely correct.

 

[Jomann]

But that refusal to unite does not mean that God doesn’t exist for souls in Hell. Rather, they exist exactly in a sense as the souls in Heaven. . .they see the face of God, they are aware of the thoughts of God, they are given the love of God. . .

While for the souls in Hell, seeing God’s face is like torture. Hearing his thoughts is like hearing awful unending noise. Feeling His love is like being burned by the hottest and unending fire.

This is not true. People in hell will not feel the God’s love or see His face. Hell is exactly the absence of these. God knows that His qualities hurt them because they don’t want them. So God lovingly will insulate them from Him. They only have the remembrance of God and hate that very memory.

They will experience a living that nobody can experience while on earth/purgatory/heaven: the total absence of God.

They only have contact with God as existence because God is the sustainer of everything including the existence of hell. Existence as thing-in-itself is the only good in hell. And of course they hate that too…

There’s some controversy if this extreme reality is already in hell or if it will take place only after the Last Judgement when humans will receive their physical bodies and satan and demons will be with them.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

This is not true. People in hell will not feel the God’s love or see His face. Hell is exactly the absence of these. God knows that His qualities hurt them because they don’t want them. So God lovingly will insulate them from Him. They only have the remembrance of God and hate that very memory.

They will experience a living that nobody can experience while on earth/purgatory/heaven: the total absence of God.

They only have contact with God as existence because God is the sustainer of everything including the existence of hell. Existence as thing-in-itself is the only good in hell. And of course they hate that too…

There’s some controversy if this extreme reality is already in hell or if it will take place only after the Last Judgement when humans will receive their physical bodies and satan and demons will be with them.

I think you misunderstand. God’s love will ‘feel’ like torture to those who have turned away from Him. God will not ‘insulate’ people. He will permit them to turn away, but He will not turn away Himself. God still loves these people. . .or don’t you agree?

 

[Jomann]

I think you misunderstand. God’s love will ‘feel’ like torture to those who have turned away from Him. God will not ‘insulate’ people. He will permit them to turn away, but He will not turn away Himself. God still loves these people. . .or don’t you agree?

Exactly. If God knows His love is a torture to someone He will stop that. Literally insulate that person. He will continue to love them eternally but will not permit those people to feel that because they don’t want it. This is what hell is.

I’m talking about the perspective of hell from inside.

Hell is like a vault made by thick nihil (nothingness) and its gates can only be locked from inside. People who hate the very nature of God (theosis) will enter in this vault and lock it from inside.

It’s dreadful only to imagine someone wanting to do that but we know that some really did it like satan and his demons and at least some humans too.

 

[reggieM]

Your explanation of purgatory here gives me new insight. Could you share a source to verify that what you present is actual Church teaching?

I can affirm that what he said is correct.
The section in the Catechism on purgatory has similar information. It’s a little more difficult to understand than what Jomann provided - which was clear and direct. The Catechism is more theological. But the concept is the same and correct.

 

[reggieM]

Hell is like a vault made by thick nihil (nothingness) and its gates can only be locked from inside. People who hate the very nature of God (theosis) will enter in this vault and lock it from inside.

That’s a good example because they choose to lock themselves in. They want to stay away from God and His love. We can see that on earth with a hardened-sinner who gets angry at any mention of God. They want to run away from His love.

It’s dreadful only to imagine someone wanting to do that but we know that some really did it like satan and his demons and at least some humans too.

The people who do this have embraced themselves instead of God, and like Satan, they would rather love created being than to serve Him (and submit and obey). Since they are really nothing without God, they can’t love anything in Hell. It’s just emptiness and sorrow.

 

[Jomann]

I can affirm that what he said is correct.
The section in the Catechism on purgatory has similar information. It’s a little more difficult to understand than what Jomann provided - which was clear and direct. The Catechism is more theological. But the concept is the same and correct.

Thank you!

Yes it’s everything in the Catechism.

 

[Jomann]

That’s a good example because they choose to lock themselves in. They want to stay away from God and His love. We can see that on earth with a hardened-sinner who gets angry at any mention of God. They want to run away from His love.

The people who do this have embraced themselves instead of God, and like Satan, they would rather love created being than to serve Him (and submit and obey). Since they are really nothing without God, they can’t love anything in Hell. It’s just emptiness and sorrow.

Yes, I notice the angry and hate some people display towards Jesus. It’s not a normal thing. I don’t believe in Zeus or Thor but I would consider myself very silly hating these characters. I can even talk with people who actually worship them and have a normal conversation about their beliefs. But hate their gods? How can I hate something I believe that don’t exist in first place?

Another thing very noticeable is those people who are angry and hatred are diving very deep in the philosophical nihilism. The thought of “I don’t care about anything”. But they care a lot about something they say don’t exist at all…

It’s very unhealthy to harbor such contradictory attitudes.

 

[ANV]

Yes, I notice the angry and hate some people display towards Jesus. It’s not a normal thing. I don’t believe in Zeus or Thor but I would consider myself very silly hating these characters. I can even talk with people who actually worship them and have a normal conversation about their beliefs. But hate their gods? How can I hate something I believe that don’t exist in first place?

Another thing very noticeable is those people who are angry and hatred are diving very deep in the philosophical nihilism. The thought of “I don’t care about anything”. But they care a lot about something they say don’t exist at all…

It’s very unhealthy to harbor such contradictory attitudes.

If you were at the age where half or majority of people believe in these Gods and do bad things in their name, would your approach be the same?

 

[Jomann]

If you were at the age where half or majority of people believe in these Gods and do bad things in their name, would your approach be the same?

At first I would point out logical contradictions in their very system of thought.

After that if they really want to continue doing bad things in the name of very self contradictory premises I would defend myself in a very active way.

But hate their very contradictory premises? No way.

For instance, atheism it’s not even a system of thought. It’s only one negative premise that even depends on external definition. Atheism can only exist after someone defines a concept of God (actually every Christian is an atheist considering some concepts of God). Nobody can build much things upon this silly negative premise. Indeed history shows that no civilization was ever built upon atheism. And I’m sure atheism can’t sustain any existing civilization.

I understand atheism and reject it as a system of thought. Actually I’m very impressed how someone can identify itself with a single negative premise…

 

[steve_b]

Exactly. If God knows His love is a torture to someone He will stop that. Literally insulate that person. He will continue to love them eternally but will not permit those people to feel that because they don’t want it. This is what hell is.

I’m talking about the perspective of hell from inside.

Hell is like a vault made by thick nihil (nothingness) and its gates can only be locked from inside. People who hate the very nature of God (theosis) will enter in this vault and lock it from inside.

It’s dreadful only to imagine someone wanting to do that but we know that some really did it like satan and his demons and at least some humans too.

for those who die in mortal sin, God eternalizes their disposition at death. One can no longer choose differently as they could on this side of eternity. One can’t change their answer(s) on the test after the test is over. They have been judged, All the graces were given them to do what’s right. Their position at death with regards to God is locked forever. That’s the purpose of this life. Pass the test given or fail… Death, (graduation if you will) shows if one either passed or failed this life.

From the CCC
598 In her Magisterial teaching of the faith and in the witness of her saints, the Church has never forgotten that “sinners were the authors and the ministers of all the sufferings that the divine Redeemer endured.” Taking into account the fact that our sins affect Christ himself, the Church does not hesitate to impute to Christians the gravest responsibility for the torments inflicted upon Jesus, a responsibility with which they have all too often burdened the Jews alone:

We must regard as guilty all those who continue to relapse into their sins. Since our sins made the Lord Christ suffer the torment of the cross, those who plunge themselves into disorders and crimes crucify the Son of God anew in their hearts (for he is in them) and hold him up to contempt.

 

[CHRISTINE77]

Yes, I notice the angry and hate some people display towards Jesus. It’s not a normal thing. I don’t believe in Zeus or Thor but I would consider myself very silly hating these characters. I can even talk with people who actually worship them and have a normal conversation about their beliefs. But hate their gods? How can I hate something I believe that don’t exist in first place?

Another thing very noticeable is those people who are angry and hatred are diving very deep in the philosophical nihilism. The thought of “I don’t care about anything”. But they care a lot about something they say don’t exist at all…

It’s very unhealthy to harbor such contradictory attitudes.

So true!

 

[CHRISTINE77]

At first I would point out logical contradictions in their very system of thought.

After that if they really want to continue doing bad things in the name of very self contradictory premises I would defend myself in a very active way.

But hate their very contradictory premises? No way.

For instance, atheism it’s not even a system of thought. It’s only one negative premise that even depends on external definition. Atheism can only exist after someone defines a concept of God (actually every Christian is an atheist considering some concepts of God). Nobody can build much things upon this silly negative premise. Indeed history shows that no civilization was ever built upon atheism. And I’m sure atheism can’t sustain any existing civilization.

I understand atheism and reject it as a system of thought. Actually I’m very impressed how someone can identify itself with a single negative premise…

Great post. It is so refreshingly true!

 

[ANV]

At first I would point out logical contradictions in their very system of thought.

After that if they really want to continue doing bad things in the name of very self contradictory premises I would defend myself in a very active way.

But hate their very contradictory premises? No way.

For instance, atheism it’s not even a system of thought. It’s only one negative premise that even depends on external definition. Atheism can only exist after someone defines a concept of God (actually every Christian is an atheist considering some concepts of God). Nobody can build much things upon this silly negative premise. Indeed history shows that no civilization was ever built upon atheism. And I’m sure atheism can’t sustain any existing civilization.

I understand atheism and reject it as a system of thought. Actually I’m very impressed how someone can identify itself with a single negative premise…

A-theism is just a disbelief in gods, if you don’t believe in gods and religions that makes you an atheist, simple as that. What comes after that are the reasons that led you to such conclusions, any human from whatever beliefs they have contributed and contribute in building societies and civilizations, many atheists and disbelievers were included, who may have worked more for secularism or other social political conduct in the modern world, what is done by civilizations is the product of humanity, every civilization made hospitals, libraries, armies etc… None of them were the product of Christianity, Islam or Hinduism, they had their influences on the names these places got, because people belonged to these religions, but civilizations everywhere are the product of humanity, and any belief or disbelief would have done that because the humans are the makers and not their beliefs.

 

[hasantas]

Also are all sins equal, are intended murder and rape equal to masturbation or premarital sex?

Killing as an action last very shortly. But the punishment could be lifetime and perpetual. Because killer destroy a life so the punishment could be equal to a life.

Likewise meaning of rejection existence of God is as killing eternal life of God as moraly. Because God is eternal with all attributes. If anyone reject those so that mean the eternal killings are committed and punishment require to stand in Hell prison as eternal life sentence.

Sins are not equal and God could/might forgive sins. The life on the world is an exam. So humanbeing should do good deeds(for our case repenting) on the world. It is non sense to find/give/do true answer after exam had already finished.

There is grace of God in Hell also. Because human demand to go on life even in prison. Our conscience want that ofcourse if that conscience is not corrupted. Like that a life though in Hell is a great blessing for human. Being destroyed forever is the most desperate suffering. And also a sinner suffer punishment according to sins after that there is no suffering but also there is exit from Hell. Not suffering is grace of God but sin of rejection eternal God require eternal punishment.

 

[CHRISTINE77]

A-theism is just a disbelief in gods, if you don’t believe in gods and religions that makes you an atheist, simple as that. What comes after that are the reasons that led you to such conclusions, any human from whatever beliefs they have contributed and contribute in building societies and civilizations, many atheists and disbelievers were included, who may have worked more for secularism or other social political conduct in the modern world, what is done by civilizations is the product of humanity, every civilization made hospitals, libraries, armies etc… None of them were the product of Christianity, Islam or Hinduism, they had their influences on the names these places got, because people belonged to these religions, but civilizations everywhere are the product of humanity, and any belief or disbelief would have done that because the humans are the makers and not their beliefs.

All societies evolved from a belief in God or gods. Tell me one society that evolved from atheism.

 

[hasantas]

A-theism is just a disbelief in gods, if you don’t believe in gods and religions that makes you an atheist, simple as that. What comes after that are the reasons that led you to such conclusions, any human from whatever beliefs they have contributed and contribute in building societies and civilizations, many atheists and disbelievers were included, who may have worked more for secularism or other social political conduct in the modern world, what is done by civilizations is the product of humanity, every civilization made hospitals, libraries, armies etc… None of them were the product of Christianity, Islam or Hinduism, they had their influences on the names these places got, because people belonged to these religions, but civilizations everywhere are the product of humanity, and any belief or disbelief would have done that because the humans are the makers and not their beliefs.

To have faith or not all human may do good or evil things and there is no need to do in the name of religion. You are right that because we are human and we have human attributes. That make us more than a biological system. Religion advise us to have moral attributes.