Isn't an eternal punishment for a finite sin illogical and unjust?

[Jomann]

A-theism is just a disbelief in gods, if you don’t believe in gods and religions that makes you an atheist, simple as that. What comes after that are the reasons that led you to such conclusions, any human from whatever beliefs they have contributed and contribute in building societies and civilizations, many atheists and disbelievers were included, who may have worked more for secularism or other social political conduct in the modern world, what is done by civilizations is the product of humanity, every civilization made hospitals, libraries, armies etc… None of them were the product of Christianity, Islam or Hinduism, they had their influences on the names these places got, because people belonged to these religions, but civilizations everywhere are the product of humanity, and any belief or disbelief would have done that because the humans are the makers and not their beliefs.

Atheism is a disbelief in concepts of God. First you need a concept of God to disbelieve or deny. Usually atheism don’t make the effort in refuting the concept itself but only stating that such concept cannot exist. What you think about the Christian concept of God? Our God doesn’t exist, He is not a being, He is the very existence.

No individual can build a civilization. Civilizations are built by institutions. Our civilizations were built upon theist Institutions. Of course there was help from nonbelievers but they worked with these institutions. Atheism itself cannot unite people. And secularism was advocated first by Christianity (give to God the things of God and to Caesar the things of Caesar…). The only relevant atheist institution in history is communism.

 

[CHRISTINE77]

Atheism is a disbelief in concepts of God. First you need a concept of God to disbelieve or deny. Usually atheism don’t make the effort in refuting the concept itself but only stating that such concept cannot exist. What you think about the Christian concept of God? Our God doesn’t exist, He is not a being, He is the very existence.

No individual can build a civilization. Civilizations are built by institutions. Our civilizations were built upon theist Institutions. Of course there was help from nonbelievers but they worked with these institutions. Atheism itself cannot unite people. And secularism was advocated first by Christianity (give to God the things of God and to Caesar the things of Caesar…). The only relevant atheist institution in history is communism.

:clapping:

 

[Tantum_ergo]

To have faith or not all human may do good or evil things and there is no need to do in the name of religion. You are right that because we are human and we have human attributes. That make us more than a biological system. Religion advise us to have moral attributes.

What do you define religion as? If you define it as a belief system or ‘advisor’, where did it come from? What makes something ‘moral’? What is the standard that is being used? It is not the religion itself. . .

 

[oyaji]

Also are all sins equal,

In your world, sin does not exist. There is only sin if there is a God. Be an atheist if you must, but be consistent and watch your words…they have meaning.

are intended murder and rape equal to masturbation or premarital sex?

Now you’re being silly.

 

[Samwise21]

All societies evolved from a belief in God or gods. Tell me one society that evolved from atheism.

The Soviet Union?

 

[oyaji]

How do you know this to be true? We know of cases where people have only felt the need to apologize for things they’ve done wrong decades after they were done. Who is to say it’s absolutely impossible for someone to feel remorse for something they did in life after they’ve died?

Since the very beginning of Christianity, there has ALWAYS been a golden thread (belief) running through her tortured history that God indeed continues to offer his mercy and forgiveness beyond this life.

 

[JPUSC]

I agree with the title. It is very unjust to receive eternal punishment for a finite sin.

Why is it that there can be eternal punishment for a small little sin like a small lie, eating meat on a Friday of Lent or masturbation, yet one can receive communion after discernment depending on the diocese for a certain sin mentioned directly by Jesus (Matthew 19:8)?

And what’s the purpose of a “Savior” if not believing in Him would send one to eternal punishment even if one is a good person?

 

[Samwise21]

And what’s the purpose of a “Savior” if not believing in Him would send one to eternal punishment even if one is a good person?

Maybe it’s a matter of ‘ask and you shall receive.’ You don’t ask, you don’t receive.

I’m sure there are better ideas than mine, though.

 

[hasantas]

What do you define religion as? If you define it as a belief system or ‘advisor’, where did it come from? What makes something ‘moral’? What is the standard that is being used? It is not the religion itself. . .

Religion is belief and worship system and valid religions revealed by God. What I try to point human is not just a biological system also human have a soul and moral attributes which prove that human is created by God. Ofcourse biological system of body point eternal knowledge and wisdom of God but human may go on wrong(reject existence of God) ways. Soul and other moral attributes make it easy to understand that we are created by God. So all human have potantial to select/do good or evil. Religion point and advise the good ways.

If someone claim that the good things may occur without religion? Yes it is possible because human itself is creatue of God and human has ability to do good. People heritaged all good attributes from prophets. Some do that in the name of religion and other do in the name of humanity.

 

[CHRISTINE77]

The Soviet Union?

That’s not really a civilization, and in that society a lot of people remained secretly faithful to the Orthodox faith. But it’s a good example of how horrible an atheistic nation can be.

 

[Jomann]

Religion is belief and worship system and valid religions revealed by God. What I try to point human is not just a biological system also human have a soul and moral attributes which prove that human is created by God. Ofcourse biological system of body point eternal knowledge and wisdom of God but human may go on wrong(reject existence of God) ways. Soul and other moral attributes make it easy to understand that we are created by God. So all human have potantial to select/do good or evil. Religion point and advise the good ways.

If someone claim that the good things may occur without religion? Yes it is possible because human itself is creatue of God and human has ability to do good. People heritaged all good attributes from prophets. Some do that in the name of religion and other do in the name of humanity.

Romans 1:19,20.

 

[AgnosticBoy]

Isn’t an eternal punishment for a finite sin illogical and unjust?

I think that logic is irrelevant here unless you can prove that there is an objective standard in place to determine how long a punishment should be. The same can be said for what we consider “unjust”. I also think that the duration of the sin is not the only factor that God consider since He also could look at the magnitude of the sin. Rejecting God is probably the greatest sin, and if so, that should lead to the greatest punishment.

Also are all sins equal, are intended murder and rape equal to masturbation or premarital sex?

In some senses all sins are equal. They’re all sin or wrong. If you live your life as an unrepentant adulterer, you’ll get the same eternal punishment as an unrepentant serial rapist.

 

[ffg]

Also are all sins equal, are intended murder and rape equal to masturbation or premarital sex?

My thoughts on the OP.

Hell is desired by those who reside.

Does that mean that ‘punishment’ is desired specifically? That’s the classic ‘what I don’t know can’t be that bad’ illusion.

Hell residents know what they are doing in rejecting God, and know they are not going to be with God forever due to their desire to reject God’s mercy.

What they don’t know is how painful it is to make such a choice.

Another angle, Hell is not what you assume in the title, where it seems a ‘not by choice’ punishment’ is being doled out for an act. You have to consider what the desire to act does to the actor’s desire regarding the God relationship.

With regard to 'are all sins equal' - NO, but again, grave matter is grave matter because of what it does to the actor in leading them down a path away from God, not what the matter does to God.

 

[Bradski]

In some senses all sins are equal. They’re all sin or wrong. If you live your life as an unrepentant adulterer, you’ll get the same eternal punishment as an unrepentant serial rapist.

By ‘in some sense’ it appears that you understand all sins to be equal simply because the punishment is the same. And anyone who thinks that sleeping with a woman to whom you are not married is as bad as raping dozens of women has no business discussing justice.

 

[Vico]

So no chance for repentance after the sentemce.

That is not justice as we know it.

In this case the person has already lost both spiritual life (habitual grace) and so to make an analogy with man’s law, is already executed. There is no change after the physical death so one in that condition is not revived to spiritual life after physical death. (The soul still exists however.)

 

[Jomann]

By ‘in some sense’ it appears that you understand all sins to be equal simply because the punishment is the same. And anyone who thinks that sleeping with a woman to whom you are not married is as bad as raping dozens of women has no business discussing justice.

AFAIK even hell has levels.

 

[Mike_from_NJ]

I want to present two items that, while not totally analgous, might shed some light as to why some of us have trouble as outlined in the thread title.

Item 1) A young man is growing up and does not honor his mother and father. The mother and father are not the greatest parents, but they try. At 18 the young man gets into an accident serious enough that he could die. If he dies, then he is likely sent to Hell for eternity for breaking one of the commandments without repenting. If he lives, he grows up and has a child of his one. If it’s the latter then after having his own son this man realizes the struggles and difficulties his parents had to go through and is more understanding. He apologizes to them and repents his sin to God.

Now in this instance, if the young man lives then time and understanding in this life allows him to see the error of his ways. If he dies then the time and understanding after death is (by what most here are saying) will never be sufficient to allow him to repent of his errors. He’s still the same person, just the plane of existence where he gets his information and introspection from is different.

Item 2) The idea that there is a tipping point (in this case death) from which no amount of sorrow or understanding is sufficient to repent for one’s sins is not unlike a scenario where an entity loaning money to a person adds on so much interest/fees that a person will be utterly incapable of escaping that debt.

By God (allegedly) saying that from the moment of death on all the time and reflection in the world is not enough for God to forgive the person, he is the loan shark in this scenario, setting up rules that he could waive if he wanted to give the person a fair break in allowing a person to only serve a punishment his sin is due – not be punished forever.

I think that’s key, because I find that the people who are lightning quick to limit the power of God are believers and not unbelievers – specifically due to questions like these.

 

[Vico]

I want to present two items that, while not totally analgous, might shed some light as to why some of us have trouble as outlined in the thread title.

Item 1) A young man is growing up and does not honor his mother and father. The mother and father are not the greatest parents, but they try. At 18 the young man gets into an accident serious enough that he could die. If he dies, then he is likely sent to Hell for eternity for breaking one of the commandments without repenting. If he lives, he grows up and has a child of his one. If it’s the latter then after having his own son this man realizes the struggles and difficulties his parents had to go through and is more understanding. He apologizes to them and repents his sin to God.

Now in this instance, if the young man lives then time and understanding in this life allows him to see the error of his ways. If he dies then the time and understanding after death is (by what most here are saying) will never be sufficient to allow him to repent of his errors. He’s still the same person, just the plane of existence where he gets his information and introspection from is different.

Item 2) The idea that there is a tipping point (in this case death) from which no amount of sorrow or understanding is sufficient to repent for one’s sins is not unlike a scenario where an entity loaning money to a person adds on so much interest/fees that a person will be utterly incapable of escaping that debt.

By God (allegedly) saying that from the moment of death on all the time and reflection in the world is not enough for God to forgive the person, he is the loan shark in this scenario, setting up rules that he could waive if he wanted to give the person a fair break in allowing a person to only serve a punishment his sin is due – not be punished forever.

I think that’s key, because I find that the people who are lightning quick to limit the power of God are believers and not unbelievers – specifically due to questions like these.

The eternal punishment or reward is self chosen and God is not withdrawing the free will given the soul that is used to choose. The angels choose once and human choice is completed at the death of the body.

 

[Jomann]

I want to present two items that, while not totally analgous, might shed some light as to why some of us have trouble as outlined in the thread title.

Item 1) A young man is growing up and does not honor his mother and father. The mother and father are not the greatest parents, but they try. At 18 the young man gets into an accident serious enough that he could die. If he dies, then he is likely sent to Hell for eternity for breaking one of the commandments without repenting. If he lives, he grows up and has a child of his one. If it’s the latter then after having his own son this man realizes the struggles and difficulties his parents had to go through and is more understanding. He apologizes to them and repents his sin to God.

Now in this instance, if the young man lives then time and understanding in this life allows him to see the error of his ways. If he dies then the time and understanding after death is (by what most here are saying) will never be sufficient to allow him to repent of his errors. He’s still the same person, just the plane of existence where he gets his information and introspection from is different.

Item 2) The idea that there is a tipping point (in this case death) from which no amount of sorrow or understanding is sufficient to repent for one’s sins is not unlike a scenario where an entity loaning money to a person adds on so much interest/fees that a person will be utterly incapable of escaping that debt.

By God (allegedly) saying that from the moment of death on all the time and reflection in the world is not enough for God to forgive the person, he is the loan shark in this scenario, setting up rules that he could waive if he wanted to give the person a fair break in allowing a person to only serve a punishment his sin is due – not be punished forever.

I think that’s key, because I find that the people who are lightning quick to limit the power of God are believers and not unbelievers – specifically due to questions like these.

You must think of freewill as the box of Schroedinger’s cat.

While you are on earth God Himself chose not to interfere in your freewill. That means you are the only one in the whole universe who can access your freewill. You can even hide your will from others and nobody can suspect. It’s total privacy so even God must “hide” in some sense. Because if God revealed Himself in a full way your freewill would collapse immediately because there’s no freewill between choosing a piece of chalk and a palace of pure gold. Free-will must be probated because justice demands authenticity.

When you die God will measure your box of freewill and He will use what is called “scientia media”. When God uses this ability doesn’t matter if you lived one second or one hundred years.

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molinism

 

[Jomann]

Item 2) The idea that there is a tipping point (in this case death) from which no amount of sorrow or understanding is sufficient to repent for one’s sins is not unlike a scenario where an entity loaning money to a person adds on so much interest/fees that a person will be utterly incapable of escaping that debt.

By God (allegedly) saying that from the moment of death on all the time and reflection in the world is not enough for God to forgive the person, he is the loan shark in this scenario, setting up rules that he could waive if he wanted to give the person a fair break in allowing a person to only serve a punishment his sin is due – not be punished forever.

I think that’s key, because I find that the people who are lightning quick to limit the power of God are believers and not unbelievers – specifically due to questions like these.

Justice needs a time limit. While on earth anybody has a chance until their last breath to repent of all sins. This is really a very good provision but can’t last forever.

God will know about the deepest intentions of your heart. That’s why you must always keep a heart of repentance because if you die suddenly your intentions will be fixed. Repentance is a state and you must keep it all the time confessing you are a sinner. But if you think it’s all made up and nonsense then you’re in a very serious danger.

The only known excuse for not knowing about your afterlife judgment is called invencible ignorance. But in our age of information it’s becoming a very unlike situation.

And this reality is written in your very soul. People even before Christ were aware about an afterlife judgment.