Isn't an eternal punishment for a finite sin illogical and unjust?

[petra22]

So what happens if you repent after you have gone to hell?

I think it’s up until your last breath… you have the chance to repent and be sorry–it can happen it the “twinkling of an eye…” but after that last breath… probably not, but only God knows if there is a “time” where the departed “sees” the truth at last and can choose to adore God or to Hate God… ?

 

[Bradski]

I think it’s up until your last breath… you have the chance to repent and be sorry–it can happen it the “twinkling of an eye…” but after that last breath… probably not, but only God knows if there is a “time” where the departed “sees” the truth at last and can choose to adore God or to Hate God… ?

It would have saved you time to simply say: ‘I don’t know’.

 

[Jomann]

I think it’s up until your last breath… you have the chance to repent and be sorry–it can happen it the “twinkling of an eye…” but after that last breath… probably not, but only God knows if there is a “time” where the departed “sees” the truth at last and can choose to adore God or to Hate God… ?

I know a counter argument against this.

If God do such thing then we could ask: why not before?

Why put people under painful doubts through years and years and at the end do such complete view of truth?

The Church teaches our fate is known immediately after the hour of death. The particular judgement is made automatically without the person of Jesus. Jesus will only be present in the Last Judgment.

 

[Jomann]

I think it’s up until your last breath… you have the chance to repent and be sorry–it can happen it the “twinkling of an eye…” but after that last breath… probably not, but only God knows if there is a “time” where the departed “sees” the truth at last and can choose to adore God or to Hate God… ?

I know a counter argument against this.

If God do such thing then we could ask: why not before?

Why put people under painful doubts through years and years and at the end do such complete view of truth?

The Church teaches our fate is known immediately after the hour of death. The particular judgement is made automatically without the person of Jesus. Jesus will only be present in the Last Judgment.

 

[Aloysium]

Now you are contradicting yourself. Which is not surprising, because the whole concept of hell is a contradiction waiting to happen. Ask ten Catholics for their concept of hell and you’ll get 12 different answers…

So what? Ask the Church and you will get only one answer. . . .

Disbelief in God reduces the truth to merely what people think, no reality but the material and after that just opinion. There is no ignorance, just emptiness and chaos.

. . . Once you are through the doors, they slam shut and there is no chance of parole. No matter how contrite you become. And you call that justice. . .

I call that time. It goes only one way; what is done unchangeable. And, once we are dead, there is no opportunity to say sorry nor to redeem oneself. That’s the way it is.

Now, atheists may take heart that what they’ve done may not have been seen. I suppose doing away with witnesses achieves the same end. Ultimately, here there will be no witnesses once the next asteroid hits. But, there is always at least one witness, oneself, who can psychobabble a wrong into oblivion I suppose, or just forget about it. The best we can do I terms of self-absolution is try to understand what we do and why; just carry the guilt and try to do better next time. Hopefully, the regrets and resentments about one’s life do not dominate in the end. I would have thought the concept of hell would be clear to an atheist. Maybe that is why God is denied, because He knows and will always know.

But, God is infinitely compassionate, forgiving and has a way of turning every misfortune around.

 

[Vico]

So what happens if you repent after you have gone to hell?

The accepting or rejecting the divine grace ends with death.

Catechism
1021 Death puts an end to human life as the time open to either accepting or rejecting the divine grace manifested in Christ. 592 The New Testament speaks of judgment primarily in its aspect of the final encounter with Christ in his second coming, but also repeatedly affirms that each will be rewarded immediately after death in accordance with his works and faith. The parable of the poor man Lazarus and the words of Christ on the cross to the good thief, as well as other New Testament texts speak of a final destiny of the soul–a destiny which can be different for some and for others. 593

1022 Each man receives his eternal retribution in his immortal soul at the very moment of his death, in a particular judgment that refers his life to Christ: either entrance into the blessedness of heaven-through a purification 594 or immediately, 595 – or immediate and everlasting damnation. 596

At the evening of life, we shall be judged on our love. 597

• 592 Cf. 2 Tim 1:9-10
• 593 Cf. Lk 16:22; 23:43; Mt 16:26; 2 Cor 5:8; Phil 1:23; Heb 9:27; 12:23.
• 594 Cf. Council of Lyons II (1274) : DS 857-858; Council of Florence (1439) : DS 1304- 1306; Council of Trent (1563) : DS 1820.
• 595 Cf. Benedict XII, Benedictus Deus (1336) : DS 1000-1001; John XXII, Ne super his (1334) : DS 990.
• 596 Cf. Benedict XII, Benedictus Deus (1336) : DS 1002.
• 597 St. John of the Cross, Dichos 64.
• DS = Denzinger-Schonmetzer, Enchiridion Symbolorum, definitionum et declarationum de rebus fidei et morum (1965)

 

[Bradski]

The accepting or rejecting the divine grace ends with death.

Catechism
1021 Death puts an end to human life as the time open to either accepting or rejecting the divine grace manifested in Christ. 592 The New Testament speaks of judgment primarily in its aspect of the final encounter with Christ in his second coming, but also repeatedly affirms that each will be rewarded immediately after death in accordance with his works and faith. The parable of the poor man Lazarus and the words of Christ on the cross to the good thief, as well as other New Testament texts speak of a final destiny of the soul–a destiny which can be different for some and for others. 593

1022 Each man receives his eternal retribution in his immortal soul at the very moment of his death, in a particular judgment that refers his life to Christ: either entrance into the blessedness of heaven-through a purification 594 or immediately, 595 – or immediate and everlasting damnation. 596

At the evening of life, we shall be judged on our love. 597
​

So no chance for repentance after the sentemce.

That is not justice as we know it.​

 

[Jomann]

So no chance for repentance after the sentemce.

That is not justice as we know it.

Yes it is.

Justice demands very stipulated and determined timing. Time must be limited in justice.

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reasonable_time

 

[Clevus]

So what happens if you repent after you have gone to hell?

Fr. Ripperger’s YouTube articles on hell will explain everything. Not a read in front of the fire place with a cup of coffee I’m afraid. Sobering maybe.

 

[ANV]

So you kill thousands of people let’s say, then 30 seconds before your death you repent and confess and your sins are forgiven? doesn’t sound much of a justice thing, specially when you use what is done to others as an argument for after life like “if there is no afterlife then who judges the evil that is done on earth”. repenting before death exclude that argument from your concern about a just judgment.

 

[Jomann]

So you kill thousands of people let’s say, then 30 seconds before your death you repent and confess and your sins are forgiven? doesn’t sound much of a justice thing, specially when you use what is done to others as an argument for after life like “if there is no afterlife then who judges the evil that is done on earth”. repenting before death exclude that argument from your concern about a just judgment.

If you’re truly repent that’s the very reason purgatory exists. God can forgive all your sins but you must pay the consequences of your sins.

Purgatory has levels that are more painful than anything on earth. Some levels are similar to hell but temporary.

When you’re in a state of grace while on earth all your suffering is a payment for the consequences of your sins. And suffering on earth is more valuable than suffering in purgatory.

Catholicism gives meaning to suffering. It’s the only system of thought that can do this.

 

[reggieM]

So no chance for repentance after the sentemce.

That is not justice as we know it.

There can be nothing that would cause repentance after death that was not already refused before death. What “event” could occur in a timeless state that would cause repentance? On what basis would someone in hell suddenly decide to repent?

 

[steve_b]

Also are all sins equal, are intended murder and rape equal to masturbation or premarital sex?

Here is where the distinction between sins occurs in scripture.

(internal Links are all operational)
For context #15

 

[STT]

There can be nothing that would cause repentance after death that was not already refused before death. What “event” could occur in a timeless state that would cause repentance? On what basis would someone in hell suddenly decide to repent?

Then your timeless theory about life after death is wrong. Why? Because it cannot fulfill Divine Justice.

 

[Jomann]

Then your timeless theory about life after death is wrong. Why? Because it cannot fulfill Divine Justice.

Timeless regarding our time on earth.

Heaven and hell have their proper time. This is known since the OT.

 

[reggieM]

Then your timeless theory about life after death is wrong. Why? Because it cannot fulfill Divine Justice.

Time is the movement and change in a material universe.
God exists outside of that. There is no time, as we know it.
Divine Justice emanates from His Being - in which all things occur instantaneously.

 

[Jomann]

Time is the movement and change in a material universe.
God exists outside of that. There is no time, as we know it…

That’s exactly what I said.

I’m not talking about God and time (any kind of time).

I’m talking about some metaphysical time experienced by finite creatures in heaven and hell.

After (and during) the Last Judgment everyone (Heaven and hell) will gain their physical bodies again and some kind of physical time will exist. Because physical bodies (even though transformed bodies) need (some kind of) physical time.

That’s what it means the “end of times”. Now the creatures experience different times. After the Last Judgment everyone will experience the same time.

 

[STT]

Time is the movement and change in a material universe.
God exists outside of that. There is no time, as we know it.
Divine Justice emanates from His Being - in which all things occur instantaneously.

I was talking about creatures and not God. Timeless-spaceless Heaven and Hell are meaningless for creature who are created to live in time.

 

[STT]

That’s exactly what I said.

I’m not talking about God and time (any kind of time).

I’m talking about some metaphysical time experienced by finite creatures in heaven and hell.

After (and during) the Last Judgment everyone (Heaven and hell) will gain their physical bodies again and some kind of physical time will exist. Because physical bodies (even though transformed bodies) need (some kind of) physical time.

 

[Jomann]

Every finite creature will always experiences some kind of time.

Only their Will (voluntas) will not be free anymore because they will not be able to change their will (voluntas) to choose God or not. Only that property will change.

Einstein equated physical time with physical space and called it spacetime. Bergson equated time with consciousness and called it duration. It’s a very interesting philosophical theory about time. The time our souls experience (while without body) must be very similar to this concept of duration.

Even while we’re in soul and body union we experience a psychological/metaphysical/spiritual time that’s very different from the purely physical time.