Israel Launches Operation Pillar of Defense against Gaza

  • Thread starter Thread starter pepipop
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
Dale_M said:
Israel’s targets seem increasingly to be civilian infrastructure. First, it was police stations and mass communications outlets. But the scope is expanding.

For example, Wadi Bridge, the main crossing between north and south Gaza,was destroyed last night. Israel also dropped a bomb, very precisely, on wasteland in between two hotels housing journalists. The target seems to have been a water main.

(click on picture to make bigger)
Click to expand...
There is no possible way to justify this.
 
Ecoclimber said:
You CANNOT have a ‘democratic’ movement in the Middle East where a country is ruled by an theocratic ideology that is opposed to democracy!
Click to expand...
Lol, and to be sure, you can scarcely call a country a democracy where the majority of people want instead a theocracy !

Indeed, it requires everything anti-democratic to try to suppress the majority will of the people. Seems anti-sensical that a supposedly democratic country would spend most of its time trying to frustrate the people.

For a real democracy to take root, the majority of the people have to actually want and prefer it to all the other forms of government.
 
1AugustSon7 said:
Lol, and to be sure, you can scarcely call a country a democracy where the majority of people want instead a theocracy !

Indeed, it requires everything anti-democratic to try to suppress the majority will of the people. Seems anti-sensical that a supposedly democratic country would spend most of its time trying to frustrate the people.

For a real democracy to take root, the majority of the people have to actually want and prefer it to all the other forms of government.
Click to expand...
Are you referring to Israel? I’m not quite sure you are, because the majority of Israelis do not favor a theocracy; if anything, they are more secular than religious.
 
meltzerboy said:
The media originally portrayed Arafat’s PLO as a terrorist organization. Then the political party of Fatah, the main constituent of the PLO, was described as the radical element of the PLO organization. After that, Fatah was considered more mainstream compared to the terrorist group called Hamas. Now, I heard a commentator say that Hamas is conservative compared to other fringe elements of the Muslim Brotherhood. I suppose there is a certain relative aspect to this classification, but it seems the definition of terrorism is changing for the worse.
Click to expand...
Haj Amin al-Husseini died in exile in 1974. He never returned to Jerusalem after his 1937 departure. His place as leader of the radical, nationalist Palestinian Arabs was taken by his nephew Mohammed Abdel-Raouf Arafat As Qudwa al-Hussaeini, better known as Yasser Arafat.
and we all know who Haj Amin al-Husseini is don’t we?

that is why peace will never come and the war wont stop.it just has a ceasefire… until it is strong enough to have another go…its a business for them.sadly…

and i totally agree with your last line
 
Do tell.
How about all the civilians killed in US drone attacks in Pakistan & Afghanistan, men,women and children alike?

I’m not asking because I’m anti-US of anti-Israel but there seem to some weird disconnects. Would the Palestinian attacks on Israel be more acceptable if the Palestinian Authority were a “real” government waging a declared war? What if the attack on the bus were carried out by Palestinian drones or soldiers operating behind Israeli lines?
 
meltzerboy said:
Are you referring to Israel? I’m not quite sure you are, because the majority of Israelis do not favor a theocracy; if anything, they are more secular than religious.
Click to expand...
Why would you even think that I was referring to Israel?
 
meltzerboy said:
I hope so too. Hillary, wonder-woman, comes through again! If the cease-fire holds and can lead to further, more lasting negotiations, that would be a great legacy for her and the Obama administration, apart from the benefits to Israel and the Palestinians. I’m probably being too optimistic, but time will tell.
Click to expand...
Doesn’t there have to be a first time to use the word again?

Reports I heard indicate the cease fire agreement was signed yesterday but they had to wait for Hillary to arrive to make the announcement. In the mean time people died. :rolleyes:
 
In the future, let’s hope that Israel issues warnings before taking unilateral action rather than shocking and surprising the whole world like this.

According to the UK’s Telegraph, the first strike was an operation of Bin Shet. My question is, if Israel was under such duress for so long from rocket fire from Gaza, why wouldn’t they issue warnings to cease firing said rockets before carrying out its first assssination, which they knew could (and did) result in furious (and consequently foolish) reaction from Hamas? In my opinion, the way in which Israel conducted itself at the beginning could be argued as being a deliberate attempt to provoke Hamas.

Hopefully Israel managed to kill a lot of the idiots running the military aspect of Hamas for the people of Gaza’s sake: how idiotic do you have to be to load up on weapons (rockets and rocket-launchers) to fight against a country that had already procured -and I am pretty sure this was even public knowledge- the capacity to neutralize that weaponry?
 
Israel has been warning for months. But come on, do you really expect that Hamas needed any warnings to stop if they wanted to? It is like someone setting up a machine gun nest across the street from your house and firing the gun every day for 1 minute. Don’t you think they know it will upset you?
 
gilliam said:
Israel has been warning for months. But come on, do you really expect that Hamas needed any warnings to stop if they wanted to? It is like someone setting up a machine gun nest across the street from your house and firing the gun every day for 1 minute. Don’t you think they know it will upset you?
Click to expand...
If that were true, the press would have not presented the conflict the way they did. We would have heard that we were expecting this; and if we were expecting this, or had reason to, then we in the West should have already been prepared for a crisis. It is manifestly obvious that we were not.
 
Here is the full text of the agreement:Understanding regarding ceasfire in Gaza Strip
  • Israel shall stop all hostilities in the Gaza Strip land sea and air, including incursions and targeting of individuals.
  • All Palestinian factions shall stop all hostilities from the Gaza Strip against Israel, including rocket attacks and all attacks along the border.
  • Opening the crossings and facilitating the movement of people and transfer of goods and refraining from restricting residents’ free movements and targeting residents in border areas. Procedures of implementation shall be dealt with after 24 hours from the start of the ceasefire.
  • Other matters as may be requested shall be addressed.
Implementation mechanism
  • Setting up the zero hour understanding to enter into effect.
  • Egypt shall receive assurances from each party that the party commits to what was agreed upon.
  • Each party shall commit itself not to perform any acts that would breach this understanding. In case of any observations, Egypt as a sponsor of this understanding, shall be informed to follow up.
 
gilliam said:
Here is the full text of the agreement:Understanding regarding ceasfire in Gaza Strip
  • Israel shall stop all hostilities in the Gaza Strip land sea and air, including incursions and targeting of individuals.
  • All Palestinian factions shall stop all hostilities from the Gaza Strip against Israel, including rocket attacks and all attacks along the border.
  • Opening the crossings and facilitating the movement of people and transfer of goods and refraining from restricting residents’ free movements and targeting residents in border areas. Procedures of implementation shall be dealt with after 24 hours from the start of the ceasefire.
  • Other matters as may be requested shall be addressed.
Implementation mechanism
  • Setting up the zero hour understanding to enter into effect.
  • Egypt shall receive assurances from each party that the party commits to what was agreed upon.
  • Each party shall commit itself not to perform any acts that would breach this understanding. In case of any observations, Egypt as a sponsor of this understanding, shall be informed to follow up.
Click to expand...
Does this mean the blockade remains?

Hopefully we can get humanitarian relief into the affected areas.
 
1AugustSon7 said:
In the future, let’s hope that Israel issues warnings before taking unilateral action rather than shocking and surprising the whole world like this.

:confused:

June 2012
Six Palestinians have been killed in targeted air strikes carried out by the Israeli air force since Monday afternoon. At least seven targets were struck by Israeli missiles on Tuesday night and early on Wednesday.
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
 
Alright, so why was everyone so surprised by this? It’s just not adding up for me.
Dale_M said:
:confused:

June 2012

guardian.co.uk/world/2012/jun/20/rockets-gaza-israel-border

July 2012

indianexpress.com/news/gaza-rocket-hits-israel-army/972542

August 2012

articles.chicagotribune.com/2012-08-27/news/sns-rt-us-palestinians-israel-violencebre87q17s-20120827_1_hamas-gaza-city-nidal-al-mughrabi

October 2012

usatoday.com/story/news/world/2012/10/24/gaza-israel-rockets/1653689/

I am sure there were other incidents of Gazan attacks and Israeli retaliation. Those are just some examples grabbed from a quick Google search.
Click to expand...
 
1AugustSon7 said:
Alright, so why was everyone so surprised by this? It’s just not adding up for me.
Click to expand...
I tacked on an addition to my comment. The assassination of Jabari is what took everyone by surprise and is what ignited this major crisis.
 
Dale_M said:
**What was surprising was the assassination **of Jabari. Certainly that was unexpected by Hamas and journalists around the world. That incident is what raised the tit for tat to a whole new level.
Click to expand...
I see you added this bit : that’s what I am referring to.

I heard the reason was largely two-fold: First, because he was supposed to be involved in a 2006 kidnapping of an Israeli soldier; however, the press should not have admitted this reason without an objection, because this occured several years before the last cease-fire and, therefore, cannot possibly constitute a legitimate reason to break that cease-fire. The second, more credible reason was because he was supposed to be -at least in part- responsible for the rocket attacks against Israel. That being admitted, I still believe Israel should have issued warnings that it was planning on escalating its response to the rocket attacks- not necessarily specifying what they were going to do, but at least giving the world a “heads up” that something serious might be coming (in the near future).

If Israel had done that, then the press could have explained the situation and context to the people: i.e., that this rocket fire was coming from Gaza and that the previous cease-fire was breaking down, with Israel naturally desiring to bring an end to the rocket attacks. As it happened, this crisis didn’t just hit that first Hamas official out of the blue, but all of us.
 
1AugustSon7 said:
If Israel had done that, then the press could have explained the situation and context to the people: i.e., that this rocket fire was coming from Gaza and that the previous cease-fire was breaking down, with Israel naturally desiring to bring an end to it. As it happened, this crisis didn’t just hit that first Hamas official out of the blue, but all of us.
Click to expand...
I dunno… I remember seeing this Reuters headline a couple days before the killing of Jabari.

**
Israel’s next war may be with Gaza, but not Syria
**
For almost 40 years the Golan has been one of Israel’s quietest fronts, and despite the close-up view of the Syrian civil war they now have from windy Golan outposts, Israeli generals are not expecting things to heat up in the north.
Click to expand...
But down south, real war clouds are gathering over the Gaza Strip, the blockaded coastal enclave from where Islamist Palestinian fighters are firing rockets at Israel, and in return are being picked off by Israeli air force strikes.
Click to expand...
“In the past month, over 20 terrorists and some civilians have been killed in the Gaza Strip and dozens have been wounded,” Israeli Defence Minister Ehud Barak said on Sunday. “The shooting has not stopped even today, even at this hour.”
Click to expand...
Barak says the Israel Defense Forces (IDF) will respond.
Click to expand...
“Under my instruction the IDF … is exploring the possibilities of increasing the response to Hamas and the other terror groups and we will hit the terror groups at an ever-growing pace,” he said on Sunday.
Click to expand...
“If we are forced to go back into Gaza in order to hit Hamas and restore calm, we will not hesitate to do so.”
Click to expand...
articles.chicagotribune.com/2012-11-12/news/sns-rt-us-israel-warbre8ab0td-20121112_1_disengagement-line-syrian-civil-war-gaza-strip
 
didymus said:
Do tell.
How about all the civilians killed in US drone attacks in Pakistan & Afghanistan, men,women and children alike?

I’m not asking because I’m anti-US of anti-Israel but there seem to some weird disconnects. Would the Palestinian attacks on Israel be more acceptable if the Palestinian Authority were a “real” government waging a declared war? What if the attack on the bus were carried out by Palestinian drones or soldiers operating behind Israeli lines?
Click to expand...
🤷 ? I am not sure I am following the point you are trying to make, but I will answer your question. No, the Palestinian rockets or bombings would not be any more acceptable if they were a real government, waging a declared war. In fact targeting civilians (buses and population centers) is a violation of the rules of war. As it is, the Palestinian authority is not a signatory of the GC and thus it is ‘less wrong’ to violate the rules now than if they were members, though the GC declares some universal jurisdiction). We got bombed/attacked in a civilian population center and bombed the bejeezers out of Iraq (toppled their government) and Afghanistan. If we were continually bombed in our populous cities, I don’t think the US would hesitate to wipe the people doing it off the map. (As is a state’s right of self defense under international law). Thus the fact that Israel has not done so with the Palestinian Authority shows many things. 1. The delicate nature and precarious situation the are in, in that area of the world. 2. Enormous restraint (more so than Syria’s Assad, and they were just protesting, not trying to wipe him off the map). 3. That they are at least marginally sympathetic to the Palestinians claims of a homeland and right to be there…
 
So much for the cease fire.

Ceasefire brokered by Egypt, U.S., went into force at 9:00 p.m. but Hamas keeps on firing rockets. In a joint mission by the IDF and the General Security Service, the operational facilities of Islamic Jihad in Gaza were hit. Two rockets were fired from southern Lebanon towards the Israeli border on Wednesday evening.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top