Israel Launches Operation Pillar of Defense against Gaza

[austenbosten]

Then who has been firing the rockets?

Well clearly Hamas’s military wing is not the one. They only shoot rainbows and puppies over to Israel.

 

[1AugustSon7]

Then who has been firing the rockets?

According to Canada’s law, it’s a terrorist organization, which by definition of that law, is not an army or even a freedom-fighting force.

Regardless, Hamas in Gaza cannot be realistically called an army by any Western definition.

Ergo, I reiterate, what the Canadian federal government is doing is manipulating the Canadian public and trying in a most pathetic, desperate and even cowardly way to unilaterally alter Canadian policy by -in Orwellian fashion- retroactively changing public belief and understanding, in order to foster the erroneous impression that there is anything even remotely akin to an alliance between Israel and Canada.

Canada and Israel have no alliance: never have and, if public opinion has any choice, not likely will any time soon.

 

[_L]

There is not much evidence of Arabs wanting peace with the Jews. They want the Jews dead.

Would you want peace on the terms the Israeli’s are offering? The nation was formed by western powers taking land that belonged to Palestinians and giving it to foreigners who had been living in Europe for centuries. Imagine if Native Americans kicked you off your property claiming that their ancestors lived there and so they have a right to take that land back, it would be absurd wouldn’t it? What kind of world would we be living in if that sort of thing was acceptable? I can’t blame the Palestinians for not wanting peace until Israel is ready to make real concessions.

 

[meltzerboy]

Would you want peace on the terms the Israeli’s are offering? The nation was formed by western powers taking land that belonged to Palestinians and giving it to foreigners who had been living in Europe for centuries. Imagine if Native Americans kicked you off your property claiming that their ancestors lived there and so they have a right to take that land back, it would be absurd wouldn’t it? What kind of world would we be living in if that sort of thing was acceptable? I can’t blame the Palestinians for not wanting peace until Israel is ready to make real concessions.

I find it interesting that you bring up Native Americans (or indigenous people, for the more politically correct) as equivalent to the Israelis. Usually the comparison you make is in reverse: that is, White Americans, who pushed Native Americans off their land, are compared to the Israelis who supposedly took the land from the Palestinians. You seem to deflect blame from Caucasians by casting Native Americans as villains while comparing them to Israelis. To take up another point, Israel has already made plenty of concessions, many of which the Palestinian Arab leaders have refused.

 

[1AugustSon7]

I find it interesting that you bring up Native Americans (or indigenous people, for the more politically correct) as equivalent to the Israelis. Usually the comparison you make is in reverse: that is, White Americans, who pushed Native Americans off their land, are compared to the Israelis who supposedly took the land from the Palestinians. You seem to deflect blame from Caucasians by casting Native Americans as villains while comparing them to Israelis. To take up another point, Israel has already made plenty of concessions, many of which the Palestinian Arab leaders have refused.

I agree: this is not the 17th century.

We have these crazy ideas like international law and the United Nations now. And human rights.

For Catholics, though, the Church’s social doctrine and teaching on human dignity, combined with simple justice, are regulating factors.

Taking these factors into mind, things don’t look so hot for the army amassing on the borders of the absurdly helpless people of Gaza.

 

[meltzerboy]

I agree: this is not the 17th century.

We have these crazy ideas like international law and the United Nations now. And human rights.

For Catholics, though, the Church’s social doctrine and teaching on human dignity, combined with simple justice, are regulating factors.

Taking these factors into mind, things don’t look so hot for the army amassing on the borders of the absurdly helpless people of Gaza.

Leaving aside the political “look” of the situation, I must wonder what Israel hopes a ground war will accomplish which the drone attacks cannot. Maybe someone with more knowledge about military operations and strategy can explain how such as war is thought to be more targeted and effective.

 

[1AugustSon7]

Leaving aside the political . . .

Political? I think you quoted the wrong person.

As for the military perspective, it is rather simple: one side has an (i) advanced, (ii) trained and (iii) professional army. The other does not.

 

[LEMAITRE]

Would you want peace on the terms the Israeli’s are offering? The nation was formed by western powers taking land that belonged to Palestinians and giving it to foreigners who had been living in Europe for centuries. Imagine if Native Americans kicked you off your property claiming that their ancestors lived there and so they have a right to take that land back, it would be absurd wouldn’t it? What kind of world would we be living in if that sort of thing was acceptable? I can’t blame the Palestinians for not wanting peace until Israel is ready to make real concessions.

Historically the land doesn’t belong to the Palestinians. There is no Palestine. The Palestinians historically were people who came from the Agean Sea area Syria/Egypt and moved into a small portion of the land now known as ‘Israel’, they never owned the entire land of ‘Israel’.

These people become the Philistines (Goliath was one) then started warring with the Israelites.

The Philistines were a people from the area of the Aegean Sea who invaded the southern coast of Palestine and threatened the Israelites.

"In the latter half of the 2d millennium b.c., invading Indo-European tribes forced many people living on the islands and coast of the northeastern Mediterranean out of their original homeland. These displaced people attacked the hittites in Asia Minor and the cities of the North Syrian and Palestinian coast; they finally invaded Egypt in the reign of Ramses III, who defeated them in a land and naval battle fought on the coast (c. 1170 b.c.). When these so-called Peoples of the Sea were forced out of Egypt, one group, the Tsikal, settled in the coastal area of which is now Palestinian Territories at the vicinity of Dor (South of Carmel). Another group that are called prst in the Egyptian records settled along the Palestinian coast south of Dor.

Their Egyptian designation, pronounced approximately pulastu, corresponds to the name p elištîm, Philistines, by which they were known to the Israelites. The name Palestine is derived from it. In a short time the Philistines took over the area between Joppe and the Wadi Ghazzeh and formed a pentapolis, a group of “five cities,” some of which included Gaza, Ashkelon, and Ashdod (later Azotus) on the coast." ~ CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA

Having said that both parties have been there for so long now they can’t be expected to leave. They must share the land peacefully. I favour a two state solution.

 

[1AugustSon7]

Historically the land doesn’t belong to the Palestinians. There is no Palestine. The Palestinians historically were people who came from the Agean Sea area Syria/Egypt and moved into a small portion of the land now known as ‘Israel’, they never owned the entire land of ‘Israel’.

These people become the Philistines (Goliath was one) then started warring with the Israelites.

The Philistines were a people from the area of the Aegean Sea who invaded the southern coast of Palestine and threatened the Israelites.

"In the latter half of the 2d millennium b.c., invading Indo-European tribes forced many people living on the islands and coast of the northeastern Mediterranean out of their original homeland. These displaced people attacked the hittites in Asia Minor and the cities of the North Syrian and Palestinian coast; they finally invaded Egypt in the reign of Ramses III, who defeated them in a land and naval battle fought on the coast (c. 1170 b.c.). When these so-called Peoples of the Sea were forced out of Egypt, one group, the Tsikal, settled in the coastal area of which is now Palestinian Territories at the vicinity of Dor (South of Carmel). Another group that are called prst in the Egyptian records settled along the Palestinian coast south of Dor.

Their Egyptian designation, pronounced approximately pulastu, corresponds to the name p elištîm, Philistines, by which they were known to the Israelites. The name Palestine is derived from it. In a short time the Philistines took over the area between Joppe and the Wadi Ghazzeh and formed a pentapolis, a group of “five cities,” some of which included Gaza, Ashkelon, and Ashdod (later Azotus) on the coast." ~ CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA

Having said that both parties have been there for so long now they can’t be expected to leave. They must share the land peacefully. I favour a two state solution.

Link please.

And your assumption is denied: even the Israelis cannot help but admitt and confess that there is such a people called the Palestinians. Moreover, universal consensus has no difficulty with calling the area -part of which belongs to the country of Israel- Palestine.

 

[1AugustSon7]

Moreover, I beg the forum Moderators to delete any post whatsoever that dares deny or challenge that Palestinians are actually a people, a fact that even human speech and convention cannot help but confess : firstly, it is contrary to international law to deny a people nationhood, according to the U.N Charter of Human Rights. Secondly, racism is universally recognized as an evil; moreover, the Palestinians are assumed to be Semites, and no one on this forum would ever be allowed to speak, e.g., of the Jews as if they were somehow not actually a people; and this would be considered anti-Semitism. Likewise, denying that the Palestinians are really a people is anti-Semitism.

To conclude, the fact that it is highly probably that hundreds (hopefully not thousands) of these people are likely to die in the next few days makes the whole subject (of questioning wether or not Palestinians are a people) revolting to simple Christian morality- not to mention charity.

 

[ishii]

Would you want peace on the terms the Israeli’s are offering? The nation was formed by western powers taking land that belonged to Palestinians and giving it to foreigners who had been living in Europe for centuries. Imagine if Native Americans kicked you off your property claiming that their ancestors lived there and so they have a right to take that land back, it would be absurd wouldn’t it? What kind of world would we be living in if that sort of thing was acceptable? I can’t blame the Palestinians for not wanting peace until Israel is ready to make real concessions.

All of those nations in the area were carved up arbitrarily by Western powers after the fall of the Ottoman empire. If Israel has no legitimate claim to its land, then neither does Saudi Arabia, Libya, Syria, Iraq, etc. Why the desire to focus only on Israel on this issue of legitimacy?

Ishii

 

[LEMAITRE]

Link please.

And your assumption is denied: even the Israelis cannot help but admitt and confess that there is such a people called the Palestinians. Moreover, universal consensus has no difficulty with calling the area -part of which belongs to the country of Israel- Palestine.

The Palestinians were originally invaders who have been there so long in the area they live in it is now known as Palestine but they never inhabited the area now know as Israel. If you really want to go back to ancient history and really have a closer look, and by that I mean BC. Sure they are now known as Palestinians but history goes further than that point. We know that the Israelites, the Jewish tribes such as the Canaanites were there prior to the “Palestinians” who were referred to as Philistines. These new people turned up and started wars with the Israelites. They arrived there because Ramses III had defeated them when they tried to take Egyptian lands and they pretty much had nowhere else to go.

encyclopedia.com/article-1G2-3407708787/philistines.html

 

[ishii]

Moreover, I beg the forum Moderators to delete any post whatsoever that dares deny or challenge that Palestinians are actually a people, a fact that even human speech and convention cannot help but confess : firstly, it is contrary to international law to deny a people nationhood, according to the U.N Charter of Human Rights. Secondly, racism is universally recognized as an evil; moreover, the Palestinians are assumed to be Semites, and no one on this forum would ever be allowed to speak, e.g., of the Jews as if they were somehow not actually a people; and this would be considered anti-Semitism. Likewise, denying that the Palestinians are really a people is anti-Semitism.

To conclude, the fact that it is highly probably that hundreds (hopefully not thousands) of these people are likely to die in the next few days makes the whole subject (of questioning wether or not Palestinians are a people) revolting to simple Christian morality- not to mention charity.

Since when is the UN the official law of the world? All people are to not be denied nationhood? So if a group of people in northern Idaho decide to form their own nation, then they should be able to? Because of the UN charter on human rights?

Ishii

 

[1AugustSon7]

The Palestinians were originally invaders have been there so long now the area they live in is Palestine but they never inhabited the area now know as Israel. If you really want to go back to ancient history and really have a closer look, by that I mean BC. Sure they are now known as Palestinians but history goes further than that point. We know that the Israelites, the Jewish tribes such as the Canaanites were there prior because when these new people turned up they started wars with the Israelites.

encyclopedia.com/article-1G2-3407708787/philistines.html

This is trivial and beside the point. Scarce anyone anywhere can trace their descent to the first and original inhabitants of a terrority or region.

Real people are dying. Please get that into your head.

 

[LEMAITRE]

This is trivial and beside the point. Scarce anyone anywhere can trace their descent to the first and original inhabitants of a terrority or region.

Real people are dying. Please get that into your head.

How is it trivial, it’s historical fact and you did ask me for proof. Please don’t patronise me, I’m fully aware that people are dying on both sides. Didn’t you read where I said I favour a two-state solution because both parties have been on that land for so long. I realise you are emotional about the issue but please try to make informed statements.

 

[1AugustSon7]

Since when is the UN the official law of the world? All people are to not be denied nationhood? So if a group of people in northern Idaho decide to form their own nation, then they should be able to? Because of the UN charter on human rights?

Ishii

It is the official law of the world insomuch as it reflects truth and reality, since truth and reality is, by its own nature, law. Moreover, when nations accept it, then there is added strength to it.

The Quebecois, e.g., in Canada are not merely people in the Canadian province of Quebec: we have a name for them, and it is anti-sensical to think of the Quebecois -or even French Canadians (as touching their diaspora in Canada, e.g.)- as somehow not being a people, by inventing some stupid argument that they are not a real people because they immigrated there. Taking this absurd logic to its conclusion, the French as a whole are not a people either, because they descended from the Franks, who were originally of Germanic origin.

And no, it is hardly necessary that an international law must represent the truth or reality; however, sometimes it might or does. In this case, it usually does, to the benefit of, e.g., both Jews and Palestinians… and the French (in France - or even in Canada, as we have seen).

 

[1AugustSon7]

How is it trivial, it’s historical fact and you did ask me for proof. Please don’t patronise me, I’m fully aware that people are dying on both sides. Didn’t you read where I said I favour a two-state solution because both parties have been on that land for so long. I realise you are emotional about the issue but please try to make informed statements.

Excuse me. I thought you felt it was necessary to trace a peoples pedigree before acknowledging them as such, even though they are already acknowledged as such. I donèt like it because it reminds me of something like subjecting a child at conception to similar tests before determining whether or not he or she is actually a human. I do not like the logic of it.

 

[LEMAITRE]

Excuse me. I thought you felt it was necessary to trace a peoples pedigree before acknowledging them as such, even though they are already acknowledged as such. I donèt like it because it reminds me of something like subjecting a child at conception to similar tests before determining whether or not he or she is actually a human. I do not like the logic of it.

You may not like it but it is fact. Don’t make assumptions about my posts okay. Your argument was that Palestine has always existed and demanded a link to the facts that I provided. You then summarily dismissed it when I did and accused me of not knowing or caring that people were dying. As a Doctor I find this offensive. You have issues buddy.

 

[1AugustSon7]

You may not like it but it is fact. Don’t make assumptions about my posts okay. Your argument was that Palestine has always existed

Plainly false.

Now I will actually ask you to prove something: i.e., that I said what you alleged as if it even mattered; whereas, my earlier post demonstrates the complete antithesis to the invented claim that you have applied to me.
LEMAITRE;10033266:

As a Doctor I find this offensive. You have issues buddy.

As a doctor, I hope you know what an ad hominem is - and I also hope that, as an alleged doctor, you realize how ridiculous it is to claim credentials on an anonymous internet forum, Dr. LEMAITRE.

 

[LEMAITRE]

Plainly false. Now I will actually ask you to prove something: i.e., that I said what you alleged as if it even mattered; whereas, my earlier post demonstrates the complete antithesis to the invented claim that you have applied to me.

As a doctor, I hope you know what an ad hominem is - and I also hope that, as an alleged doctor, you realize how ridiculous it is to claim credentials on an anonymous internet forum, Dr. LEAITRE.

You really should see someone about your attitude issues. You are clearly not here to discuss the topic on hand. Troll?