Israel - should the UN have established it?

[Arbutus]

Israel took the West Bank in a defensive war against Jordan. This is the only case I can think of where aggressors have garnered so much sympathy. Israel is singled out and condemned far out of proportion to other countries and without any regard to proportionality. There are other peoples around with a far more convincing claim to statehood. There are places currently occupied by aggressor nations that you never hear about. I can’t remember the last time I saw a free Cyprus bumper sticker or saw any free Cyprus rallies. So when I look and see Israel singled out the way it is the only explanation, considering world history, is embedded antisemitism. The world for whatever reason simply hates the Jews.

I can think of other lands occupied by “aggressors” like Tibet for example. But it does not mean we should ignore Palestine. Palestinians are the indigenous people of the land. Genetic studies have shown that the Palestinian people have more ancient Hebrew blood than Ashkenazi or Sephardi Jews. The Palestinian Christians, particularly those belonging to the Jerusalem church founded by St, James, trace their roots to the Jews who accepted Jesus Christ as the Messiah (the first disciples of Jesus). Palestinians and Jews are related (although Palestinians may more “genetically Jewish”) and should be able to coexist.

If not for Israel’s insistence to be a “Jewish state” the conflict could have been avoided. Palestinian Jews, Christians and Muslims got along fine before the creation of Israel. The 2 state solution is now becoming less realizable. Israel continue to built illegal settlements and Netanyahu had recently declared that he totally rejects that idea of establishing a Palestinian state. A one-state solution could then become the only viable solution. I would support a single state where Jews and Palestinians can live together. Israel can annex Gaza and the West Bank and grant full citizenship to Palestinians and allow Palestinians in diaspora to return home (right of return). Netanyahu and the right wing Zionists are against this because that could mean the end of the “Jewish” nature of Israel (Zionists see the “demographic threat” as serious). As Christians, we should not support a Jewish state nor an Islamic state.

Your statement that the world simply hates the Jews has been overused to justify the oppression of Muslim and Christian Palestinians. We Christians do not hate the Jews (although we have often been accused of antisemitism). Catholics love the Jews and we pray for their salvation by accepting Jesus Christ as their Messiah…and as the second person of the Triune God.

 

[Arbutus]

So credible=whatever Seraphim agrees with? CNN maybe? MSNBC?

Credible means pro-Israel

 

[BornInMarch]

There is nothing wrong with Israel existing. All the nations in the Middle East today were founded around the same time as modern Israel.

Israel was founded after World War Two, as were the other nations in the Middle East. Before that the Middle East was divided between Britain and France.
Before that, it was ruled by the Ottoman Empire. So it is not as though a chunk was ripped out of another nation to form Israel.

The foundation of Israel was legal according to international law.

 

[magnet]

Throughout the centuries Jews have been massacred repeatedly by Christians. During the great bubonic plague of western Europe in 1348-49, the Jews of the Rhine valley were massacred because, according to Christians, God was punishing humanity for its sinful ways. Since Jews were not Christians they obviously were the worst sinners.

So a large portion of the Jewish population moved east toward Poland, Ukraine, and Romania, where the plague was not such a problem and sentiments were not against them. However, anti-semitism grew in intensity throughout the subsequent centuries. Russia often sponsored pogroms to kill off Jews.

Since there was no way for Jews to be protected by their own king, zionism grew as a way to finally establish a Jewish state. Ever since the original Jewish state in Palestine was destroyed by the Romans, many Jews felt disenfranchised. It was logical that the original home of the Jews should be re-established under their own government. Besides, since Joshua had conquered the land of Canaan, why couldn’t the Jews reconquer their original homeland?

 

[Rau]

… It was logical that the original home of the Jews should be re-established under their own government…

I imagine native peoples the world over would agree with you!

 

[Arbutus]

Wow those are some credible news agencies. Even so that is not the intentional targeting of civilians by the Israeli government. That would be like me making the case that the United States is targeting movie goers because some random guy shoots up a movie theater. When an Israeli soldier steps out of line and intentionally targets civilians they are tried and prosecuted. When a Palestinian does it they are given a parade. The fact that people see even the tiniest amount of moral equivalency between the two is absolutely amazing.

I expected you to dismiss all news that are not pro-Israel.

Tell me how many Israeli soldiers who stepped out of line have been prosecuted and how many have been proven guilty and punished accordingly?

I do agree with you though that it is amazing that there are people who see some amount of moral equivalency between Palestinians and Israel. Clearly, the Israeli Zionist regime is morally bankrupt.

Do you think it is morally acceptable for an Israeli Knesset member to call for the killing of Palestinian women? 4thmedia.org/2014/07/they-have-to-die-israeli-politician-calls-for-killing-of-palestinian-mothers/

What about the raping of Palestinian women to deter “terrorist” attacks as proposed by an Israeli scholar…do you find that morally acceptable? alternativenews.org/english/index.php/politics/israeli-sosaciety/8314-israeli-academic-raping-palestinian-women-would-deter-attacks

So much for Israel’s “high moral ground”

 

[Arbutus]

W

Throughout the centuries Jews have been massacred repeatedly by Christians. During the great bubonic plague of western Europe in 1348-49, the Jews of the Rhine valley were massacred because, according to Christians, God was punishing humanity for its sinful ways. Since Jews were not Christians they obviously were the worst sinners.

So a large portion of the Jewish population moved east toward Poland, Ukraine, and Romania, where the plague was not such a problem and sentiments were not against them. However, anti-semitism grew in intensity throughout the subsequent centuries. Russia often sponsored pogroms to kill off Jews.

Since there was no way for Jews to be protected by their own king, zionism grew as a way to finally establish a Jewish state. Ever since the original Jewish state in Palestine was destroyed by the Romans, many Jews felt disenfranchised. It was logical that the original home of the Jews should be re-established under their own government. Besides, since Joshua had conquered the land of Canaan, why couldn’t the Jews reconquer their original homeland?

What about the people who had been living in Palestine for thousand of years before the creation of the state of Israel…including the descendants of Jews who stayed in the land even after the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD many of whom became Christians and Muslims (in the 7th century)? Should they now be displaced through ethnic cleansing to give way to European Jews, many of whom are descendants of non-Semitic people who converted to Judaism?

By supporting the RECONQUEST of the original “Jewish homeland”, are you also supporting (or at least justifying) the ethnic cleansing and genocide of the Palestinian people?

 

[magnet]

W

What about the people who had been living in Palestine for thousand of years before the creation of the state of Israel…including the descendants of Jews who stayed in the land even after the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD many of whom became Christians and Muslims (in the 7th century)? Should they now be displaced through ethnic cleansing to give way to European Jews, many of whom are descendants of non-Semitic people who converted to Judaism?

By supporting the RECONQUEST of the original “Jewish homeland”, are you also supporting (or at least justifying) the ethnic cleansing and genocide of the Palestinian people?

At the end of World War II massive migrations occurred in Europe and the Middle East. When the Soviet Union occupied eastern Europe, it forced ethnic Germans to move to Germany. It also forced Volga Germans to migrate to Siberia. Similarly, when the UN established the state of Israel, Jews in Europe and Arabic countries moved to Israel. Most of the ethnic Arabs living within the new state of Israel moved out either voluntarily or because they were regarded as the enemy. The Arab-Israeli war of 1948 caused most Arabs to flee because Israel won the war. They could have moved to the countries vacated by the Jews. If they were unhappy living in a Jewish state, moving to an Arabic state made sense. Because of the Arab-Israeli war of 1948, much of the animosity between the two groups resulted in occupation of formerly Arab-controlled areas. Many refugee camps established in Lebanon and Jordan were people fleeing the war and its aftermath and being labeled as enemies of Israel.

To simply accuse the Jews of forcibly ejecting Arabs is simplistic.

The primary goal was to establish a Jewish state, i.e. a political entity that recognized Jews as legitimate first-class citizens.

 

[Arbutus]

The primary goal was to establish a Jewish state, i.e. a political entity that recognized Jews as legitimate first-class citizens.

So you agree that the Jewish state is racist since the Jews are first-class citizens while the Palestinians and non-Jews (e.g. Muslims and Christians) are second class citizens or lower/non-existent (if they have not been granted Israeli citizenship)?

And I repeat my previous question: By supporting the RECONQUEST of the original “Jewish homeland”, are you also supporting (or at least justifying) the ethnic cleansing and genocide of the Palestinian people?

 

[magnet]

So you agree that the Jewish state is racist since the Jews are first-class citizens while the Palestinians and non-Jews (e.g. Muslims and Christians) are second class citizens or lower/non-existent (if they have not been granted Israeli citizenship)?

And I repeat my previous question: By supporting the RECONQUEST of the original “Jewish homeland”, are you also supporting (or at least justifying) the ethnic cleansing and genocide of the Palestinian people?

The Israeli constitution guarantees equal rights of all its people. However, being Jewish is an advantage in business and politics. It’s the same in Arabic countries where being Arabic is an advantage. I am not aware of ethnic cleansing or genocide in Israel.
However, since six million Jews were exterminated by the Nazis, do you blame any of them for wanting to purge non-Jews?

After the Balfour policy was announced, Jews were in the minority in Palestine. The strategy of Zionism was to encourage mass immigration of Jews so that they were no longer a minority. Whole shiploads of Jews left Black Sea ports bound for Palestine. Palestine was a British protectorate and the British were against these large Jewish immigrations. That prompted a large smuggling operation where offshore ships sent boatloads of Jews to the beaches. Whether the British liked it or not, the Jews prevailed.

 

[Arbutus]

The Israeli constitution guarantees equal rights of all its people. However, being Jewish is an advantage in business and politics. It’s the same in Arabic countries where being Arabic is an advantage. I am not aware of ethnic cleansing or genocide in Israel.
However, since six million Jews were exterminated by the Nazis, do you blame any of them for wanting to purge non-Jews?

After the Balfour policy was announced, Jews were in the minority in Palestine. The strategy of Zionism was to encourage mass immigration of Jews so that they were no longer a minority. Whole shiploads of Jews left Black Sea ports bound for Palestine. Palestine was a British protectorate and the British were against these large Jewish immigrations. That prompted a large smuggling operation where offshore ships sent boatloads of Jews to the beaches. Whether the British liked it or not, the Jews prevailed.

Then you admit that the Israeli government is racist and favors Jews over non-Jews. While it may be true that the constitution guarantees equal rights to all of its people, the reality is that there is no real equal rights. The Jewish advantage in politics (which is institutionalized) is already proof that real equality does not exist.

The sufferings of the Jews under the Nazis do not justify the purge of non-Jews and do not justify the genocide of the Palestinian people. And yes I blame and condemn the Zionists who carry out the ethnic cleansing. But no I do not blame nor condemn all Jews because there are Jews (including survivors of the holocaust themselves and their descendants) who oppose the evil deeds Israel’s Zionist Likud government.

The strategy was not just the mass immigration of Jews but also included the mass expulsion and massacres of Palestinians. The Palestinians in diaspora now are denied their right of return. As a Catholic Christian I cannot support.

Here are some definitions for you:

ETHNIC CLEANSING is the systematic forced removal of ethnic or religious groups from a given territory with the intent of creating a territory inhabited by people of a homogeneous or pure ethnicity, religion, culture, and history. The forces applied may be various forms of forced migration (deportation, population transfer), as well as mass murder, and intimidation.

GENOCIDE is the systematic destruction of all or part of a racial, ethnic, religious or national group via the (a) Killing of members of the group; (b) Causing of serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group; (c) Deliberate inflicting on the group’s conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part; (d) Imposing of measures intended to prevent births within the group; or (e) Forcible transferring of children of the group to another group.

 

[magnet]

Then you admit that the Israeli government is racist and favors Jews over non-Jews. While it may be true that the constitution guarantees equal rights to all of its people, the reality is that there is no real equal rights. The Jewish advantage in politics (which is institutionalized) is already proof that real equality does not exist.

 

[Arbutus]

Arbutus;12267522:

Remember that a wartime mentality pervades Israel. They are in a state of war against Gaza and the West Bank. Israel has occupied the West Bank for decades. After having had several devastating wars waged against them by Arabs ever since statehood was achieved, how can they possibly forgive and forget. Treaty after treaty has fallen apart. As long as there are people who vow to destroy Israel, they will be paranoid against Arabs with good reason. As long as Arab groups are still regarded as the enemy, making them equal to Jews is impossible, especially in the political arena. Ethnic cleansing and genocide are a natural outcome of being deathly afraid of your neighbor.

The war between Israel and Palestine is a war of resistance between an oppressive occupier and its victims.

You are saying that Israel is suffering from paranoia, and I agree with you. However, that paranoia does not excuse them from their war crimes.

Israel does not consider all Arabic countries as enemies at the present time. Egypt is now an ally and a party to the oppression of Palestinians. Even Saudi Arabia is not really an enemy anymore but a partner (together with the US) in the ISIS/ISIL project to destabilize the rest of the middle east.

While the Palestinians are seeking a just solution to the conflict (even Hamas has declared that it is open to a peaceful solution), Israel does not really want peace. Israel wants all the land it can steal but without the Palestinians. The ouster of the present right-wing Likud government of Israel may bring about the possibility of a negotiated peace. Another possible avenue for a peaceful solution is the BDS movement (which is now gaining ground) to force Israel to end the occupation.

 

[clintonm]

What about the people who had been living in Palestine for thousand of years before the creation of the state of Israel…including the descendants of Jews who stayed in the land even after the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD many of whom became Christians and Muslims (in the 7th century)?

Keep in mind the number of Arabs that arrived in what was Christendom in the late seventh century, early eights century and killed off the original inhabitants. You keep asking if one evil allows another. There are no end to evils in that regions history. Looking back on them may put current events into perspective, but there are realities of today that are also worthy of discussion. Seeking to wipe an entire ethnic group off the face of the earth is not a “good” societal view.

 

[magnet]

magnet;12267641:

The war between Israel and Palestine is a war of resistance between an oppressive occupier and its victims.

You are saying that Israel is suffering from paranoia, and I agree with you. However, that paranoia does not excuse them from their war crimes.

What is a war crime, and who decides that it is a war crime? War is brutal. When brutality is exercised upon a people and war breaks out, when are certain acts considered war crimes?

What is your source for claiming genocide by the Israelis? All the statistics I am able to dig up do not support this allegation. You are jumping on the popular bandwagon of blaming the Israelis for acts they have not committed.

Israel is occupying the West Bank for good reason. When they won the last war, occupying this area was part of the settlement for defense purposes. Too bad, the residents had to get mixed up. It’s the same with Gaza. Hamas started the current fighting, but the innocent bystanders get caught in the middle.

 

[Ridgerunner]

So you agree that the Jewish state is racist since the Jews are first-class citizens while the Palestinians and non-Jews (e.g. Muslims and Christians) are second class citizens or lower/non-existent (if they have not been granted Israeli citizenship)?

And I repeat my previous question: By supporting the RECONQUEST of the original “Jewish homeland”, are you also supporting (or at least justifying) the ethnic cleansing and genocide of the Palestinian people?

The differences between Jewish citizens in Israel and Arab citizens in Israel are: Non-Jews are not subject to the draft, and Arabs cannot hold the highest security offices in the government. In all other ways, they are the same.

There have always been Jews in Palestine. They were in the minority for a long time. They are now the majority in Israel. There are two existing Palestinian states: Jordan and Gaza. About 1/3 of the population of the West Bank are Jews. So, what proposal do those who want a third Palestinian state, have for the Jews living there? One almost hesitates to ask for fear one knows the answer already…the one followed in every Muslim land.

The inhabitands of Israel and the West Bank could live together in a confederation sort of like that of Switzerland. But the Arabs won’t allow that. It’s “Jews out” or nothing at all.

 

[Seraphim73]

While the Palestinians are seeking a just solution to the conflict (even Hamas has declared that it is open to a peaceful solution)

Now you’re just trolling.

 

[clintonm]

In total fairness, Hamas does want a “peaceful solution”. Because when they have killed every last Jew there will no longer be a need for them to fight them, thus peace.

 

[Arbutus]

Arbutus;12267661:

What is a war crime, and who decides that it is a war crime? War is brutal. When brutality is exercised upon a people and war breaks out, when are certain acts considered war crimes?

What is your source for claiming genocide by the Israelis? All the statistics I am able to dig up do not support this allegation. You are jumping on the popular bandwagon of blaming the Israelis for acts they have not committed.

Israel is occupying the West Bank for good reason. When they won the last war, occupying this area was part of the settlement for defense purposes. Too bad, the residents had to get mixed up. It’s the same with Gaza. Hamas started the current fighting, but the innocent bystanders get caught in the middle.

You are blind if you do not see the war crimes. There is no good reason for occupation and oppression of another people.

Hamas did not start the current fighting. Israel did. Israel did not want the Palestinian unity government to materialize so they made an excuse to start a war. They used the kidnapping of 3 settlers to agitate the population. Israel did not present any evidence that Hamas was responsible and Hamas denied the allegation. Even though Israel knew that the 3 settlers were already dead they still embarked on their brutal “search” which was actually intended to provoke a response from the Palestinians. At the same time they agitated the Israeli population to a frenzy and soon Israeli mobs were crying “death to Arabs!” A Palestinian boy was kidnapped, beaten and burned to death. Israel would later admit that the kidnapping of the 3 settlers was not the handiwork of Hamas. Israel’s attack on Gaza was collective punishment.

warincontext.org/2014/07/22/israel-not-hamas-orchestrated-the-latest-conflict-in-gaza/

 

[Arbutus]

The differences between Jewish citizens in Israel and Arab citizens in Israel are: Non-Jews are not subject to the draft, and Arabs cannot hold the highest security offices in the government. In all other ways, they are the same.

There have always been Jews in Palestine. They were in the minority for a long time. They are now the majority in Israel. There are two existing Palestinian states: Jordan and Gaza. About 1/3 of the population of the West Bank are Jews. So, what proposal do those who want a third Palestinian state, have for the Jews living there? One almost hesitates to ask for fear one knows the answer already…the one followed in every Muslim land.

The inhabitands of Israel and the West Bank could live together in a confederation sort of like that of Switzerland. But the Arabs won’t allow that. It’s “Jews out” or nothing at all.

Israel wants to draft Palestinian Christians into the army (as part of its divide and conquer tactic) but the Palestinian Christians themselves oppose this.

Jordanians and Palestinians are not the same. Jordanians are the nationals of Jordan (East of River Jordan. Capital:Amman). Palestinians are of two types: those who are still living in Gaza and West bank, and those who were expelled by the Israelis in 1948 and 1967 wars. The Palestinians who were expelled mainly went to Jordan. They were given the Jordanian passports but their loyalty is still to Palestine. About 60-65% of the population of Jordan now are Palestinians. There seem some degree of animosity between Jordanians and Palestinians.

Gaza is technically still under Israeli occupation. It is a large open air prison (like the Warsaw ghetto under the Nazis).

The Muslims, Christians, and Jews lived together harmoniously in Palestine before the creation of Israel. Coexistence is still possible but Israel does not want this.