Israel - should the UN have established it?

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Rau said:
Israel’s establishment was not achieved by it winning a war, for it did not exist at the time. Wars came later. It was bequeathed Statehood under unsatisfactory circumstances, because many felt sorry for the Persecuted Jews.

Most perplexing to me is the level of political support Israel finds in the US. I believe no US presidential candidate could be elected if their support was not clearly biased towards Israel. It would not be sufficient to take a neutral position.
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No nation called Palestine has ever existed either, but yet they have been offered a nation time and time again. There should be nothing perplexing about supporting the side that has the moral high ground.
 
freeRadical said:
You have proof that Israel deliberately targeted civilians?
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Yeah I’m calling baloney on that one too. A simple google search will turn up thousands of examples of Palestinian terrorist targeting civilians. Can’t find any on Israel.
 
Seraphim73 said:
Yeah I’m calling baloney on that one too. A simple google search will turn up thousands of examples of Palestinian terrorist targeting civilians. Can’t find any on Israel.
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Both sides tolerate civilian casualties. The Arabs seek them, but are incompetent. Israel does not seek them, but is extremely effective in delivering them.
 
Seraphim73 said:
So you’re in solidarity with the people intentionally firing rockets at Jewish children? How about the suicide bombers who target innocent civilians on buses, in cafes and dance halls?
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Are you saying that the Palestinian Christians are supporting Hamas? Do you have proof?

I do not support Hamas mainly because it is an Islamist group. As a Christian, I cannot support an Islamist state (in case Palestine eventually becomes a sovereign state) in the same way that I cannot support a Jewish state (as Israel identifies itself now).

Hamas is not the problem. Hamas is just a symptom of the problem which is the occupation. Even if Hamas is destroyed, new (even more radical) groups will emerge to continue the resistance to the occupation. And the Palestinians have the right to resist occupation. Even before Hamas came into existence, Israel had already been oppressing the Palestinian people (Muslims and Christians).

Israel used Islamist Hamas (in its early stage) as a counter force against the secular Fatah. Israel provided financial and intelligence (perhaps even arms) to fight Fatah (whose memberships composed of Muslims and Christians). It was the usual divide and conquer tactic.

Seraphim73, do you support the Vatican position for the establishment of a free and sovereign state of Palestine with East Jerusalem as its capital?
 
Seraphim73 said:
So does Israel.
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The Church now recognizes the right of Israel to exist. But the Church did not support its creation in 1948 and refused to recognize it until 1993, when diplomatic relations were established…but the Church does not recognize Israel as a Jewish state.
 
Seraphim73 said:
Yeah I’m calling baloney on that one too. A simple google search will turn up thousands of examples of Palestinian terrorist targeting civilians. Can’t find any on Israel.
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You googled and you missed these?

countercurrentnews.com/2014/08/idf-whistleblower-who-posted-israeli-troops-killed-gaza-civilians-in-revenge-now-under-arrest/

zerohedge.com/news/2014-08-07/united-nations-amnesty-international-and-human-rights-watch-israel-targeting-civilia

hrw.org/news/2014/08/04/gaza-israeli-soldiers-shoot-and-kill-fleeing-civilians

There are more…including IDF soldiers admitting shooting civilians.
 
The study must come from the citizens. The UN has no such jurisdiction. It can only work with established nations. It has no expertise in the area of nation building whatsoever, in fact it was an intrinsic wrong and breached the laws of the common good.

How much involvement by Palestinian citizens.? Were the Palestinian citizens asked to do a referendum? What was their official resultant vote?

So the powers that be expected that assimilation was expected after a time of unrest. Some time period.
 
Arbutus said:
Are you saying that the Palestinian Christians are supporting Hamas? Do you have proof?
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If you support the Palestinians then you support Hamas because the Palestinian people by very wide margins support Hamas and Hamas’ goal of wiping Israel off the map.
Arbutus said:
Hamas is not the problem. Hamas is just a symptom of the problem which is the occupation. Even if Hamas is destroyed, new (even more radical) groups will emerge to continue the resistance to the occupation. And the Palestinians have the right to resist occupation. Even before Hamas came into existence, Israel had already been oppressing the Palestinian people (Muslims and Christians).
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Well I would agree that Hamas is just a symptom of the problem but I disagree as to what the problem is. The problem is the virulent, irrational hatred of the Jews. Also the idea that there is an “occupation” is false. Occupiers are conquerors. There is not and has never been a nation of Palestine to occupy. Any territory Israel has captured has been in purely defensive wars and they have exchanged the vast majority of that territory back to the aggressors in exchange for peace.
Arbutus said:
Seraphim73, do you support the Vatican position for the establishment of a free and sovereign state of Palestine with East Jerusalem as its capital?
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I’m not familiar with the particulars of the Vatican position but yes I do support the establishment of (another) free and sovereign state for the Palestinians. The Palestinians were offered a state with East Jerusalem as it’s capital in the early 90’s. Arafat refused and started a terror campaign in response.
 
Arbutus said:
You googled and you missed these?

countercurrentnews.com/2014/08/idf-whistleblower-who-posted-israeli-troops-killed-gaza-civilians-in-revenge-now-under-arrest/

zerohedge.com/news/2014-08-07/united-nations-amnesty-international-and-human-rights-watch-israel-targeting-civilia

hrw.org/news/2014/08/04/gaza-israeli-soldiers-shoot-and-kill-fleeing-civilians

There are more…including IDF soldiers admitting shooting civilians.
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Wow those are some credible news agencies. Even so that is not the intentional targeting of civilians by the Israeli government. That would be like me making the case that the United States is targeting movie goers because some random guy shoots up a movie theater. When an Israeli soldier steps out of line and intentionally targets civilians they are tried and prosecuted. When a Palestinian does it they are given a parade. The fact that people see even the tiniest amount of moral equivalency between the two is absolutely amazing.
 
Seraphim73 said:
**If you support the Palestinians then you support Hamas because the Palestinian people by very wide margins support Hamas and Hamas’ goal of wiping Israel off the map. **

Well I would agree that Hamas is just a symptom of the problem but I disagree as to what the problem is. The problem is the virulent, irrational hatred of the Jews. Also the idea that there is an “occupation” is false. Occupiers are conquerors. There is not and has never been a nation of Palestine to occupy. Any territory Israel has captured has been in purely defensive wars and they have exchanged the vast majority of that territory back to the aggressors in exchange for peace.

I’m not familiar with the particulars of the Vatican position but yes I do support the establishment of (another) free and sovereign state for the Palestinians. The Palestinians were offered a state with East Jerusalem as it’s capital in the early 90’s. Arafat refused and started a terror campaign in response.
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I’m sure if you polled Irish people before independence a very wide margin would have supported driving the British out with force.

Just remember, if people fled because they heard about those massacres they abandoned their property thus banning them from returning then seizing the property because they didn’t return is totally fair and not theft.
 
Seraphim73 said:
If you support the Palestinians then you support Hamas because the Palestinian people by very wide margins support Hamas and Hamas’ goal of wiping Israel off the map.

So for you “Palestine = Hamas” and therefore since Palestinian Christians are Palestinians, they must be Hamas supporters. Hamas controls Gaza but not the West Bank, hence it is not correct to assume that the Palestinian people “by very wide margins support Hamas.” The Palestinian Christians admit that radical Muslims extremists (including Hamas) persecute them too, but they say that the main cause of their sufferings is the Israeli occupation and oppression.

I support the Palestinian people and their struggle to be free. The Vatican also officially announced its support for a Palestinian state (Pope Francis already referred to Palestine as “the state of Palestine” during his visit to holy land). By your definition I am pro-Hamas, the Vatican is pro-Hamas and the Catholic Church in the holy land is pro-Hamas.
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Seraphim73 said:
Well I would agree that Hamas is just a symptom of the problem but I disagree as to what the problem is. The problem is the virulent, irrational hatred of the Jews. Also the idea that there is an “occupation” is false. Occupiers are conquerors. There is not and has never been a nation of Palestine to occupy. Any territory Israel has captured has been in purely defensive wars and they have exchanged the vast majority of that territory back to the aggressors in exchange for peace.
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The International Court of Justice, the UN General Assembly and the United Nations Security Council regards Israel as the “Occupying Power”. The Israeli High Court of Justice has ruled that Israel holds the West Bank under “belligerent occupation”.

You can accuse all those who support Palestine of " virulent, irrational hatred of the Jews" but that will not change the fact that Israel is illegally occupying Palestine.
 
Arbutus said:
The International Court of Justice, the UN General Assembly and the United Nations Security Council regards Israel as the “Occupying Power”. The Israeli High Court of Justice has ruled that Israel holds the West Bank under “belligerent occupation”.

You can accuse all those who support Palestine of " virulent, irrational hatred of the Jews" but that will not change the fact that Israel is illegally occupying Palestine.
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Israel took the West Bank in a defensive war against Jordan. This is the only case I can think of where aggressors have garnered so much sympathy. Israel is singled out and condemned far out of proportion to other countries and without any regard to proportionality. There are other peoples around with a far more convincing claim to statehood. There are places currently occupied by aggressor nations that you never hear about. I can’t remember the last time I saw a free Cyprus bumper sticker or saw any free Cyprus rallies. So when I look and see Israel singled out the way it is the only explanation, considering world history, is embedded antisemitism. The world for whatever reason simply hates the Jews. 🤷
 
I appreciate that and I think the vast majority of people would agree with you. That being said my point is to show how Israel is singled out compared to other nations. How many UN resolutions have been passed condemning Turkey? The answer is twenty two. There were twenty one resolutions condemning Israel in 2013 alone!

So I’ll ask you a couple of questions. Do you agree that Israel is singled and if so why?
 
Seraphim73 said:
Wow those are some credible news agencies. Even so that is not the intentional targeting of civilians by the Israeli government. That would be like me making the case that the United States is targeting movie goers because some random guy shoots up a movie theater. When an Israeli soldier steps out of line and intentionally targets civilians they are tried and prosecuted. When a Palestinian does it they are given a parade. The fact that people see even the tiniest amount of moral equivalency between the two is absolutely amazing.
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So credible=whatever Seraphim agrees with? CNN maybe? MSNBC?
 
Hobbes42 said:
So credible=whatever Seraphim agrees with? CNN maybe? MSNBC?
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Do you have a link to an AP, Reuters or CNN article? You can’t expect someone to take at face value stories from websites they’ve never heard of before. Are you a frequent reader of Zerohedge.com?
 
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