Israel - should the UN have established it?

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One thing to keep in mind is that Palestinians are not genetically distinct from Jews, except insofar as there has been a bit of intermarriage with outside groups over the centuries, by both Jews and Palestinians. Although the Muslim Palestinians downplay their “Jewish” blood for historical reasons, the Christian Palestinians do not. The Palestinian people are really just descendents of the Jews who converted to Christianity, and later Islam, and remained in the land. Genetic tests have shown this time and again.

Of course this has no bearing on the justice or injustice of the formation of Israel, but it should put to rest the argument that Jews were simply reclaiming their homeland; the people living there were already the descendents of Israel and Judea.
 
One thing to keep in mind is that Palestinians are not genetically distinct from Jews, except insofar as there has been a bit of intermarriage with outside groups over the centuries, by both Jews and Palestinians. Although the Muslim Palestinians downplay their “Jewish” blood for historical reasons, the Christian Palestinians do not. The Palestinian people are really just descendents of the Jews who converted to Christianity, and later Islam, and remained in the land. Genetic tests have shown this time and again.

Of course this has no bearing on the justice or injustice of the formation of Israel, but it should put to rest the argument that Jews were simply reclaiming their homeland; the people living there were already the descendents of Israel and Judea.
Genetic tests have shown that while paternally Ashkenazim are Levantine, maternally they are European in origin.
 
Does anyone want to address my questions in post 32?
  1. Shouldn’t Germany cede some of its land for the Jews to live in, since the Germans did wrong to the Jews?
  2. Considering paulrxp’s points in post 10, and the work of George Friedman I mentioned in post 32, is it then better for the US and Israel to continue to be allies, but not stand so close?
Plus this question:
3) Isn’t the continued US support for Israel based on Christian Zionism, which Catholics oppose?
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=130176

scripturecatholic.com/zionism.html
In summary, Zionism is an anti-Catholic movement that attempts to remove the Church as the fulfillment of Old Testament prophecies, and the only authoritative voice for interpreting these prophecies. By turning Scripture into a wax nose for their own political and religious fantasies, Zionists make the Jews and Israel, and not the New Testament Church, the focus of God’s divine plan. Zionism is blatantly false and has no basis in Sacred Scripture or Tradition.
I’ll take a crack at it…
  1. After Germany surrendered, the Allies could have turned all of Germany over to the Jews to govern for perpetuity. I think the Jews would have refused. They wanted their own traditional homeland.
  2. Allies are expected to stand close.
  3. The continued U.S. support for Israel is based on Alliances and treaties. Nothing more.
    We are both countries that allow religious freedoms but our diplomatic and international relations are strictly secular.
 
I’ll take a crack at it…
  1. After Germany surrendered, the Allies could have turned all of Germany over to the Jews to govern for perpetuity. I think the Jews would have refused. They wanted their own traditional homeland.
I can understand such a want, but it is not obvious that they had any such right.
 
As I understand it (amateur reader, not historian), the UN mandate established political boundaries but did not seize anybody’s land.
That would require the land in question to be ownwed/claimed by no existing state. Are you saying no one / no state was dispossessed of existing ownership or claim? This would mean the original dispute (prior to Israel expanding) is simply about “not liking the new neighbours”?
 
A friend of mine remarked recently that there was an injustice done to Arab peoples last century when the (new) State of Israel was established. His argument is: The original Israel was lost many centuries ago and there is no basis in law to re-establish it. While Jewish people were horrendously maligned in the early to mid years of last century, it did not justify confiscating the (long established) land of others so that Jewish people could come together in their own State. Is this view much shared by others? Is there a sound counter-position?
Your friend’s statement, while maybe over-simplified, is basically correct. Because the British saw themselves as masters of the world in the late 19th century, a number of British functionaries thought it would be good to encourage Jewish immigration to Palestine. This, conveniently, would also get the Jews out of Europe so the movement (Zionism) had a great deal of support from many quarters. The basic idea was ill-conceived from the get go, but so were a lot of other British colonial ideas. At first, most of the land was legitimately purchased, although from absentee Turkish landlords. Arabs tenant families that had been farming the land for centuries were eventually displaced by policies favoring ownership and the hiring of Jews over non-Jews. And like any area that experiences massive immigration from a very different culture–most of the first Jewish immigrants were Europeans–there were lots of cultural tensions.

As other posters have pointed out, when the Israeli War for Independence broke out after the British fled the nightmare they themselves had created, many common people evacuated and were never allow to return. Israelis argue that some were fighting against the new state (true for many I’m sure), but to my mind, banning them from their property would be akin to saying that anyone who fought against the Union in the U.S. Civil War and didn’t stay on their property the whole should automatically have lost all their property rights and not be allowed to return. That’s just not going to work in the long run. So now there are Palestinian families who have been living in refugee camps since the 1940s.

The basic problem with the State of Israel is that it has been established as a “Jewish state.” Although originally this designation was meant to only have ethnic implications, over time the State has taken on a religious identity as well. If you’re not Jewish and you live in Israel, it is possible to be a citizen, but you will never be fully recognized as a citizen in the same way a Jew would be. For all practical purposes, non-Jews cannot own land within the State of Israel. Also, for a variety of reasons, non-Jews live under what we would think of as a sort of “Jim Crow” existence within the State of Israel. The idea of a nation built so strictly on the principle of ethnicity is abhorrent to our ideals as Americans. We (rightfully) bristle at the idea of Iran calling itself an “Islamic State” because we know non-Muslims will never ever have equal rights when a nation sees itself as a religious state. In the same way, the whole idea of a “Jewish State” in retrospect is just as ill-conceived because non-Jews will always experience discrimination and will never really have the same rights as Jews. Most Americans think that a nation needs to be a nation of its citizens that strives for equal treatment for all. Nations where one ethnicity is favored over another in terms of national identity is always going to discriminate against the non-“in group.”

The same principles were applied after the 1967 war, but only much more aggressively. As a practical matter, any occupied (outside the boundaries of the State) and that the State of Israel wishes to acquire for settlement, industry, parkland or whatever other use, the State acquires. The Palestinians view this as a violation of their property rights, and this is, to my mind a legitimate complaint.

In summary, it’s sort of a bizarre idea that the British implemented after WWI. We are still living with the consequences of bizarre British ideas in the Middle East that were implemented after WWI, most notably in Iraq.
 
That would require the land in question to be ownwed/claimed by no existing state. Are you saying no one / no state was dispossessed of existing ownership or claim? This would mean the original dispute (prior to Israel expanding) is simply about “not liking the new neighbours”?
The land in question had been part of the Ottoman Empire until the end of World War I, when the OE was disemboweled by the victors of that war (the OE had allied with Germany). From the end of WWI, Palestine was ruled by the British effectively as a sort of colony. The Palestinians had very limited (if any) say over the laws that governed them.
The partition plan put together by the UN would not really have eliminated any sovereign state or dispossessed it of its land. As proposed by the UN, it also would not have deprived any individual land owners of their land.

A later poster claims that non-Jews cannot own land in modern Israel and live a sort of “Jim Crow” existence. Either I’m misinformed or this is a misunderstanding. Palestinians in Gaza and the West Bank do indeed suffer a sort of limbo existence in which they are almost entirely dependent on Israeli commerce, but their ability to travel into Israel proper is severely restricted and their employment security is perilous at best. But as far as I know Arab Israeli citizens own their own land, vote for Knesset and enjoy most other benefits of citizenship. There are even Arab Knesset members. To be sure, the nation of Israel probably has taken steps to ensure that the Arab Israeli population remains a minority so that it cannot elect a scoundrel like Haj Amin al Husseini who would simply build working replicas of Auschwitz within Israel. But there’s a pretty big difference between that and “Jim Crow.”

As for why no Jewish homeland inside Germany? Nationhood is about establishing civilization where people are AT. Jews hardly flocked to Germany after WWII. You could build it, but nobody would come.

There’s a lesson here, BTW, for America. Assimilate your immigrants and encourage them to become prosperous parts of society. Don’t ostracize them, berate them, conspire to keep them in second class status (guest workers) forever. Reward those who want to assimilate. Perhaps even punish those who refuse. But if you try to minimize immigration by making things miserable for them, it will eventually bite you in the butt.
 
The land in question had been part of the Ottoman Empire until the end of World War I, when the OE was disemboweled by the victors of that war (the OE had allied with Germany). From the end of WWI, Palestine was ruled by the British effectively as a sort of colony. The Palestinians had very limited (if any) say over the laws that governed them.
The partition plan put together by the UN would not really have eliminated any sovereign state or dispossessed it of its land. As proposed by the UN, it also would not have deprived any individual land owners of their land.

A later poster claims that non-Jews cannot own land in modern Israel and live a sort of “Jim Crow” existence. Either I’m misinformed or this is a misunderstanding. Palestinians in Gaza and the West Bank do indeed suffer a sort of limbo existence in which they are almost entirely dependent on Israeli commerce, but their ability to travel into Israel proper is severely restricted and their employment security is perilous at best. But as far as I know Arab Israeli citizens own their own land, vote for Knesset and enjoy most other benefits of citizenship. There are even Arab Knesset members. To be sure, the nation of Israel probably has taken steps to ensure that the Arab Israeli population remains a minority so that it cannot elect a scoundrel like Haj Amin al Husseini who would simply build working replicas of Auschwitz within Israel. But there’s a pretty big difference between that and “Jim Crow.”

As for why no Jewish homeland inside Germany? Nationhood is about establishing civilization where people are AT. Jews hardly flocked to Germany after WWII. You could build it, but nobody would come.

There’s a lesson here, BTW, for America. Assimilate your immigrants and encourage them to become prosperous parts of society. Don’t ostracize them, berate them, conspire to keep them in second class status (guest workers) forever. Reward those who want to assimilate. Perhaps even punish those who refuse. But if you try to minimize immigration by making things miserable for them, it will eventually bite you in the butt.
The Jews in Iran are treated better than Muslims in Israel, that should make you think.
 
Really? You have proof for this assertion right?
While Iranians hate Israel their hatred doesn’t spill over against Jews, on the other hand half of Jewish youth don’t even want to be in a classroom with Arabs. Iranian parliamentarians don’t attack the Jewish parliamentarian on the floor whereas that has happened in Israel.
 
A friend of mine remarked recently that there was an injustice done to Arab peoples last century when the (new) State of Israel was established. His argument is: The original Israel was lost many centuries ago and there is no basis in law to re-establish it. While Jewish people were horrendously maligned in the early to mid years of last century, it did not justify confiscating the (long established) land of others so that Jewish people could come together in their own State. Is this view much shared by others? Is there a sound counter-position?
So the God of Abraham Itzhak and Yakov did not establish the everlasting covenant to him and his descendants?

Holy Land Gift Shop
 
A friend of mine remarked recently that there was an injustice done to Arab peoples last century when the (new) State of Israel was established. His argument is: The original Israel was lost many centuries ago and there is no basis in law to re-establish it. While Jewish people were horrendously maligned in the early to mid years of last century, it did not justify confiscating the (long established) land of others so that Jewish people could come together in their own State. Is this view much shared by others? Is there a sound counter-position?
Well, it’s kind of a silly argument. Of course Israel was founded by conquest. But so was the Ottoman Empire which preceded it. Why do you think there are ethnic Arabs in Israel, after all? Last I saw Israel is not on the Arabian peninsula.

If Arabs suddenly have a problem with conquest perhaps they can clarify their opposition to it by returning Turkey to the Byzantines!
 
The Jews in Iran are treated better than Muslims in Israel, that should make you think.
The Iranian Jewish community consists of a small group of ultra-orthodox Jews who reject modern Israel on theological grounds. They believe that only Messiah can re-establish Israel and than human attempts to “speed up” G-d’s plan amount to little more than blasphemy.

Such a Jewish view is highly politically useful to the Iranian leadership (who, contrary to popular views have never been mindless jihadis like ISIS). Why on earth WOULD they bother them?

But those Jews are essentially zoo specimens, not free citizens in a larger society. True, they aren’t harassed because the Iranian leadership keeps them safely in their ghetto. But don’t remotely confuse that with freedom. They are only safe as long as they are useful.
 
Well, it’s kind of a silly argument. Of course Israel was founded by conquest. But so was the Ottoman Empire which preceded it. Why do you think there are ethnic Arabs in Israel, after all? Last I saw Israel is not on the Arabian peninsula.

If Arabs suddenly have a problem with conquest perhaps they can clarify their opposition to it by returning Turkey to the Byzantines!
Now i’m getting confused - I presumed (by the nature of the domain name) this forum would present answers from a Godly (scriptural based) position

Holy Land Christian Gifts
 
Now i’m getting confused - I presumed (by the nature of the domain name) this forum would present answers from a Godly (scriptural based) position

Holy Land Christian Gifts
If you want to base modern land claims on the Bible (which I’m not endorsing), you might want to start with Genesis 15 where the land is promised to all of Abraham’s descendants, not just a select few.

Also, take a look at Jer 31:32. Unfortunately, the Israelites chose to forfeit their covenant with Yahweh.
 
Religion has nothing to do with the creation of Israel, which happened out of whole cloth when the UN at the request of the British crafted the partition plan. Israel is a secular, modern, liberal state with abortion, divorce, and other ills of post-Christian Western society.

While the Jews agreed to the partition plan, the Arabs did not. Muslims AND Christians in Palestine objected to Zionism and the plan to erect a Jewish state where none had been before in many hundreds of years.

So if the OP is asking whether Christians wanted the UN to establish Israel, the answer is no, Christians in the Holy Land did not want Israel to be created.

Whether it should have been created when only one of the parties (the Jews) agreed to the partition of Palestine, is a separate question.
 
The Jews in Iran are treated better than Muslims in Israel, that should make you think.
That’s a bunch of baloney. There are over 1.5 million Arab citizens of Israel who have every singe right and protection the Jewish citizens have.
 
Well, it’s not completely without base to say it’s hard to be an Israeli Arab. From what I’ve read, Arab Israelis have it about as hard in Israeli life as ethnically Mexican people do in Texas. Subject to some unfair discrimination, unjust assumptions, cultural segregation, police racial profiling and economic depression? Yup. Apartheid? Uh, not even close.
 
Well, it’s not completely without base to say it’s hard to be an Israeli Arab. From what I’ve read, Arab Israelis have it about as hard in Israeli life as ethnically Mexican people do in Texas. Subject to some unfair discrimination, unjust assumptions, cultural segregation, police racial profiling and economic depression? Yup. Apartheid? Uh, not even close.
Where did you read this? There is so much anti-semitsm I am skeptical of anything put out by the media.
 
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