Israeli rabbi opposes beatification of Nazi-era pope

[pnewton]

What some Israeli Rabbi thinks about the beatification of Pope Pius XII is irrelevant. His time would be better spent trying to stop the secularization of Israel. In other words he should mind his own store.

Like the Jews at the time of Christ, this clueless Rabbi is judging as man sees things, not as God sees. He should cease poking embers of anti-Semitism and issues in which he has no business.

 

[Deacon_Ed_B]

Here’s a man who refuses to acknowledge the truth and does his best to propagate false accusations against a man who truly displayed heroic virtue, a man who did his best to save those who were not his own and ordered his clergy to do their best to save those same, yet we should really care about his opinion in regards to the functioning of the Catholic Church? The Church isn’t a democracy among it’s own members; why should a hostile Jewish Rabbi carry any weight in Church decisions? I’m all for cordiality but there comes a time when we must say “butt out.” I think this is one of those times.

Please read post # 2
Prayers and blessings
Deacon Ed B

 

[Timothysis]

Please read post # 2
Prayers and blessings
Deacon Ed B

Very nice, indeed, Deacon Ed, but there comes a time in life when people must fight for what is right and just, not have a “we’ll pray for you” attitude for people who have no desire for our prayers and even are offended by the thought of Christians praying for Jews.

I agree with you that Pope Pius XII is, most probably, among the blessed in heaven. But are you saying that the Church should set his case aside because of the protest of this hostile rabbi? Do you not think that this is the time to try and correct the malicious revisionism of the past 50 years that slanders a man who was both courageous and holy? Does this man not deserve Justice?

You are correct that Pius does not need a declaration of sainthood to be among the elect, but it doesn’t mean that the Church, who exists for the salvation of the world and gives us the example of the communion of saints, shouldn’t continue to pursue her mission here on earth which includes declaring saints. Pope Pius XII deserves canonization and he also deserves Justice, regardless of what this rabbi thinks and I don’t see why we should care about his opinion in the matter.

 

[Deacon_Ed_B]

Very nice, indeed, Deacon Ed, but there comes a time in life when people must fight for what is right and just, not have a “we’ll pray for you” attitude for people who have no desire for our prayers and even are offended by the thought of Christians praying for Jews.
**
I agree with you that Pope Pius XII is, most probably, among the blessed in heaven. But are you saying that the Church should set his case aside because of the protest of this hostile rabbi? Do you not think that this is the time to try and correct the malicious revisionism of the past 50 years that slanders a man who was both courageous and holy? Does this man not deserve Justice?
**
You are correct that Pius does not need a declaration of sainthood to be among the elect, but it doesn’t mean that the Church, who exists for the salvation of the world and gives us the example of the communion of saints, shouldn’t continue to pursue her mission here on earth which includes declaring saints. Pope Pius XII deserves canonization and he also deserves Justice, regardless of what this rabbi thinks and I don’t see why we should care about his opinion in the matter.

Bolding = mine

To reach the conclusion stated in the area I bolded, shows your logic to be faulty to the extreme. How did you reach this conclusion? Please point out one thing I said that would make you reach this conclusion. My statement was that in my opinion Pope Pius was already a saint and that this rabbi needs prayers. Any other conclusion from that statement is ill formed to say the least. Yes, the rabbi does need prayers. Do you deny that?
Prayers & blessings
Deacon Ed B

 

[AlanF]

Why do the Jews seem to like interfering in church affairs anyway?

This reminds me of the “controversy” over the Good Friday prayer in the 1962 missal.

 

[Timothysis]

To reach the conclusion stated in the area I bolded, shows your logic to be faulty to the extreme. How did you reach this conclusion? Please point out one thing I said that would make you reach this conclusion. My statement was that in my opinion Pope Pius was already a saint and that this rabbi needs prayers. Any other conclusion from that statement is ill formed to say the least. Yes, the rabbi does need prayers. Do you deny that?

Your quote #2:

What the beatification process is, is actually the first step in declaring that one is a saint. If we consider what a saint is, it is nothing more than any person who is in heaven. I personally do believe and have no doubt that Pope Pius XII is in heaven. **That said, he is just as real and truly a saint as any of those who have been canonized. **Regardless of what some may believe, their beliefs do not alter reality. St. Pius XII, pray for us.

It sounds to me like you are saying that it doesn’t matter whether or not Pope Pius XII is canonized or not, he is in heaven. I happen to agree. My point is that we don’t need a hysterical rabbi telling the Catholic Church how to run it’s own institution. Is Pius XII a saint? Probably, so why can’t we let the Church make the declaration and not worry about this guy?

P.S. I really appreciate the “ill formed” comment.

---

 

[Timothysis]

Why do the Jews seem to like interfering in church affairs anyway?

This reminds me of the “controversy” over the Good Friday prayer in the 1962 missal.

An excellent question, Alan. As I said before, I’m sure they would be more than congenial if Pope Benedict XVI assumed to tell them how their congregations should worship…

 

[OriginalJS]

Now that WWII and the Nazi threat is long since history, it is easy to look back and criticize. Those who do forget how powerful Germany was at the time and that Hitler had massive resources available to him. HItler was also a consummate politician and immensely popular. Mussolini was also powerful and popular until the tide changed. The Church simply did not have the power to do anything but try to get along as best it could.

 

[rien]

Now that WWII and the Nazi threat is long since history, it is easy to look back and criticize. Those who do forget how powerful Germany was at the time and that Hitler had massive resources available to him. HItler was also a consummate politician and immensely popular. Mussolini was also powerful and popular until the tide changed. The Church simply did not have the power to do anything but try to get along as best it could.

Ever heard of stepping out in faith. Pius XII was complicent IMO for his reticense to speak out. Despite all the dancing some Catrholics try to do to finesse the facts of history.

 

[ASimpleSinner]

Ever heard of stepping out in faith. Pius XII was complicent IMO for his reticense to speak out. Despite all the dancing some Catrholics try to do to finesse the facts of history.

There is no dancing - there are compelling cases to be made for the venerable Pope. I pray for his beatification OFTEN.

 

[pnewton]

Ever heard of stepping out in faith. Pius XII was complicent IMO for his reticense to speak out. Despite all the dancing some Catrholics try to do to finesse the facts of history.

The canonization process is not a vote. Individual opinions, especially of those not Catholic matter nothing.

 

[Kaninchen]

What some Israeli Rabbi thinks about the beatification of Pope Pius XII is irrelevant. His time would be better spent trying to stop the secularization of Israel. In other words he should mind his own store.

Now, I have to say that I’ve always thought that the Pius XII question is an enormous diversion but isn’t there something of a problem in what you’re saying here?

Given the way in which, for example, Catholic Europe has given way to rampant secularization, should Catholic clergy be quiet on issues involving other religions/Christian denominations/sects and get on with minding their own store?

 

[Kaninchen]

Why do the Jews seem to like interfering in church affairs anyway?

This reminds me of the “controversy” over the Good Friday prayer in the 1962 missal.

Well, I’m Jewish and I’m (obviously) blissfully unaware of all this interfering - unless you mean that any member of any religion making any kind of comment about another religion is ‘interfering’ in it - in which case perhaps it would be a really good thing if nobody made any kind of comment whatsoever about religions other than their own.

Not such a bad idea perhaps . . .

 

[katy]

Ever heard of stepping out in faith. Pius XII was complicent IMO for his reticense to speak out. Despite all the dancing some Catrholics try to do to finesse the facts of history.

He had good reasons for trying to work mostly behind the scenes. For instance, when the bishops of the Netherlands spoke out, the Nazis responded by rounding up all the Jewish-born Catholics there and taking them to concentration camps. That is what happened to Edith Stein. Look into the real history some more, please.

 

[Deacon_Ed_B]

Thanks

 

[AlanF]

Ever heard of stepping out in faith. Pius XII was complicent IMO for his reticense to speak out. Despite all the dancing some Catrholics try to do to finesse the facts of history.

What would you have done in his place?

 

[33paul]

Oh please! Pius was suppose to attack the German political machine, have his moment in glory, and then what???(The world did not listen to the Pope in WW1 - how was this to be different?) Hitler was chomping at the bit for the Vatican to make that exact move so he could simply shut Catholicism down in the name of German unity. And just what would that have accomplished other than being ‘officially’ against Nazism??? Pius was a Vatican diplomat prior to his elevation to pope. He did move very slowly. But to absurdly say that Pius was ‘reticent’ in a situation that was so complex is the height of idiocy. Hitler was well aware of the millions of German Catholics. As was Pius. Only an outright fool would have ignored that simple fact with some outrageous statement that would not have saved anyone but would make good rhetoric.

All of you haters of the late Pope Pius XII, and that includes that Israeli rabbi, cannot or will not even begin to understand the actions of the Church in Italy where over 70% of Italian Jews survived - because of the actions of Pius.

It was only in the early 1960’s from a German playwright who started the smear on Pius with no evidence whatsoever but only a smoldering hatred of the Catholic Church.

 

[Soutane]

An excellent question, Alan. As I said before, I’m sure they would be more than congenial if Pope Benedict XVI assumed to tell them how their congregations should worship…

They’d never admit it but I’m sure they feel if they don’t keep on top of what those nasty Catholics are doing that a pogrom would break out immediately

 

[Lion_of_Narnia]

Ever heard of stepping out in faith. Pius XII was complicent IMO for his reticense to speak out. Despite all the dancing some Catrholics try to do to finesse the facts of history.

I assume THIS is what you mean by “finesse the facts of history”

By his “reticense” (sic) in not speaking out (though he did speak in such a way the Nazi’s knew he was their mortal enemy) Pius XII was able to work behind the scenes and save Jews–and NOT provoke a retaliation that would have had more rectories and convents raided, uncovering more Jews, sending those Jews (and their protectors) to their deaths.

So would you have prefered that Pius XII have spoken out and provoked that result??

 

[Lion_of_Narnia]

Sound of crickets chirping in response to my challenge…