From the man who was largely responsible from co-ordinating Pius XII life-saving directives, that is a statement of peasant-heritage humility, especially when 800,000+ lives saved is the result–an aspect that you seem to have completly missed.…The man who would become Pope John XXIII did indeed work to save Jews. When asked about Vatican policy about saving Jews he is reported to have replied “what policy”?
Hmm, maybe the Rabbi’s concern is that his people were almost wiped out in Germany with the cooperation of many Catholics in good standing and therefore loyal subjects of Pius XII.What some Israeli Rabbi thinks about the beatification of Pope Pius XII is irrelevant. His time would be better spent trying to stop the secularization of Israel. In other words he should mind his own store.
Perhaps you’ll indicate which (academic) historians and now they constitute a ‘preponderance’ of historians of the era, together with their central arguments and evidence?By the way, quoting Daniel Goldhagen is a losing proposition–in the light of the sheer shody (and outright slanderous) “scholarship” in his A Moral Reckoning
historians have gone back over Hitler’s Willing Executioners and feel Goldhagen’s premise to be largely discredited from both prior and post HWE studies that studied the same “police/occupation” Wermacht troops that Goldhagen claimed “sociologially proved” (from Goldhagen himself, address at ASU Grady Gammage auditorium, 1994) that German society was enfused with genocidal tendencies.
As a matter of interest, how was this 800,000 saved as a (direct) result of the Pope’s actions actually calculated? Where are the origins of the information?From the man who was largely responsible from co-ordinating Pius XII life-saving directives, that is a statement of peasant-heritage humility, especially when 800,000+ lives saved is the result–an aspect that you seem to have completly missed.
This is my all time favorite quote.The war would not have happend if we would have prayed like we were told by Our Lady of Fatima. Many innocent people were killed because we did not change our ways.
That being said, here is what Einstein said;
How Pius XII Protected Jews
Finally, let us conclude with a quotation from Lapide’s record that was not given at the death of Pius XII, but was given after the War by the most well-known Jewish figure of this century, Albert Einstein: "Only the Catholic Church protested against the Hitlerian onslaught on liberty. Up till then I had not been interested in the Church, but today I feel a great admiration for the Church, which alone has had the courage to struggle for spiritual truth and moral liberty."23]
catholic.com/library/HOW_Pius_XII_PROTECTED_JEWS.asp
Being a lover of freedom, when the revolution came in Germany, I looked to the universities to defend it, knowing that they had always boasted of their devotion to the cause of truth; but, no, the universities immediately were silenced. Then I looked to the great editors of the newspapers whose flaming editorials in days gone by had proclaimed their love of freedom; but they, like the universities, were silenced in a few short weeks….
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Only the Church stood squarely across the path of Hitler’s campaign for suppressing truth. I never had any special interest in the Church before, but now I feel a great affection and admiration because the Church alone has had the courage and persistence to stand for intellectual truth and moral freedom. I am forced thus to confess that what I once despised I now praise unreservedly.
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- Albert Einstein, Time magazine, 23rd December, 1940 p. 38
exlaodicea.wordpress.com/2008/01/30/einstein-the-nazis-and-the-catholic-church/
This is dangerous. To me it’s conceivable that someday *some *people will actually blame the Catholic Church for Hitler and the Holocaust.More Pope Pius XII bashing:
Israeli rabbi opposes beatification of Nazi-era pope(AFP)
WW2 Pope let Jews down: Rabbi(TVNZ)
Rabbi in Vatican says wartime pope let Jews down(Reuters)
Haifa chief rabbi addresses the Vatican(The Jerusalem Post)
How is the 860,000 figure arrived at? At this point I think we need to look at this concept more carefully.How Pius XII Protected Jews
Perhaps because, if you want people to treat the defense of Pius XII seriously, there has to be a dialog? Perhaps because it may be that, if some of the attacks on Pius are wild, some of the ‘apologetics’ are wilder?Why are we giving credibility to one who has his/her mind made up and is convinced (erroneously) that Pius XII did nothing? History and even Rabbis and noted scholars have said otherwise. Why do we pay heed to this voice in the wilderness?
Prayers & blessings
Deacon Ed B
How is the 860,000 figure arrived at? At this point I think we need to look at this concept more carefully.
Defense is not necessary. His actions are known by those who look seriously into the matter. What was done to the Jews by the Nazis was indeed horrific and diabolical. But they were not the only ones who suffered. Honest inquiry from historical instead of hysterical sources will reveal much.Perhaps because, if you want people to treat the defense of Pius XII seriously, there has to be a dialog? Perhaps because it may be that, if some of the attacks on Pius are wild, some of the ‘apologetics’ are wilder?
Dismissing the Holocaust with the words “they were not the only ones who suffered” shows at best a deep misunderstanding of the uniqueness of the holocaust and at worst its demeaning.Defense is not necessary. His actions are known by those who look seriously into the matter. What was done to the Jews by the Nazis was indeed horrific and diabolical. But they were not the only ones who suffered. Honest inquiry from historical instead of hysterical sources will reveal much.
Prayers & blessings
Deacon Ed B
I’m not saying that he didn’t save any Jews (in Rome for example), I’m trying to get at the 860,000 figure.Contemporary Jews Praised Pius XII For His Work Saving JewsCode:
Perhaps chosenpeople might be able to tell us where this forest is because the only references to it I’ve been able to find come from Catholic sources. I tried looking for Catholic tours online (which, one would think would take people to the Pius XI forest) but have failed to find any.The Israeli government planted 800,000 trees in a forest near Jerusalem to commemorate the 800,000 Jews they estimated Pope Pius XII saved from Hitler.
As I suggested before, he was probably overjoyed at finding somebody who could stand him (in other words, there’s a lot more to the story).*The Chief Rabbi of Rome became Catholic and took Eugenio, the first name of Pius XII, as his Christian name because he was so inspired by the Pontiff’s work in saving Jews from the Nazis.
newsblaze.com/story/20081011180931zzzz.nb/topstory.html
This seems to have its origins on the question of the deportation of Hungarian Jews - in which case it’s both an overstatement of his ‘actions’ (he was just one of a number of people - the Allies, the Swedes etc - putting pressure on Horthy, who was also under considerable pressure from the fact that the Russians were in Poland and only a couple of months from invading Hungary itself) and just plain wrong in terms of the numbers - of Hungary’s 650,000 Jews, 450,000 perished.Firstly, Pinchas Lapide calculated that Pius XII’s actions saved 800,000 Jews, more than all the governments and humanitarian agencies put together.
spectator.co.uk/the-magazine/books/839276/part_4/the-pope-was-wrong.thtml
Indeed, lots of Catholics were killed for being Polish.Defense is not necessary. His actions are known by those who look seriously into the matter. What was done to the Jews by the Nazis was indeed horrific and diabolical. But they were not the only ones who suffered. Honest inquiry from historical instead of hysterical sources will reveal much.
Prayers & blessings
Deacon Ed B
To say this when one also in the same statement says that what the Nazis did was horrific and diabolical reflects a closed mind on the issue. No one denies the suffering that occurred. 6 million Jews were killed. Many more millions were also killed. To focus on only one group is to disregard the sufferings of the others. By your own words, you convict yourself of that which you accused mo of doing.Dismissing the Holocaust with the words “they were not the only ones who suffered” shows at best a deep misunderstanding of the uniqueness of the holocaust and at worst its demeaning. .
Being of Polish extraction, I am only too well aware of the horrors that took place during the holocaust. I have read voraciously on this topic since the 1950’s. All of it was diabolically driven. What I am saying is that to focus on only one group is to myopically disregard all the others that underwent the same suffering. I too have had Polish Catholic relatives die in this horror. A death is a death, whether it be one or 6 million, or 20 Million as were killed in the Ukraine. And these are not all. There were more. Now, after 63 years since this holocaust has ended, and others have began in other parts of the world, to say that one individual could have done more without really having been there and living the horrific event as it unfolded id to disregard what pressures, motives, reasons, fears or whatever other emotions may have been involved. What most of us know we have either read about (influenced by the author’s experiences or what he/she heard or read) or what was told to us or them, which may have been tainted by those same experiences. No one, including you or me has a complete grasp of this horror. Those that do are dead. No one person has all the truth. Every person has opinions. This in no way belittles what happened to the Jews in this time. What I am saying is that to focus only on the Jews is to disregard what happened to many more millions of others.Indeed, lots of Catholics were killed for being Polish.
The thing is, Deacon Ed B, telling us that we’re not only not serious but hysterical isn’t a convincing recipe for putting the record straight.
At no point have I said that the sufferings of other groups should be ignored or belittled - elsewhere on CAF, had you been around in those threads (I’m no way implying that you should have been, I’m just mentioning it), you’d have found me being cross on numerous occasions about such things as the ‘Liquidation of the Kulaks as a class’, the Ukrainian famines and ‘Nation Killing’ in the Soviet Union. I’m an ‘equal opportunity’ “Never Again”.Being of Polish extraction, I am only too well aware of the horrors that took place during the holocaust. I have read voraciously on this topic since the 1950’s. All of it was diabolically driven. What I am saying is that to focus on only one group is to myopically disregard all the others that underwent the same suffering. I too have had Polish Catholic relatives die in this horror. A death is a death, whether it be one or 6 million, or 20 Million as were killed in the Ukraine. And these are not all. There were more. Now, after 63 years since this holocaust has ended, and others have began in other parts of the world, to say that one individual could have done more without really having been there and living the horrific event as it unfolded id to disregard what pressures, motives, reasons, fears or whatever other emotions may have been involved. What most of us know we have either read about (influenced by the author’s experiences or what he/she heard or read) or what was told to us or them, which may have been tainted by those same experiences. No one, including you or me has a complete grasp of this horror. Those that do are dead. No one person has all the truth. Every person has opinions. This in no way belittles what happened to the Jews in this time. What I am saying is that to focus only on the Jews is to disregard what happened to many more millions of others.
Prayers & blessings
Deacon Ed B