Issue with Ordaining Women

[Ryan1]

Even further, I would contend that early Christians faced far more intense persecution than most do today.

 

[Fauken]

I assumed that In Persona Christi meant that it is Christ himself ministering the sacrament.

No, that is not correct. All Sacraments come from Christ, yes. But to be In Persona Christi means to be standing in as Christ. From the Catechism:

“1548 In the ecclesial service of the ordained minister, it is Christ himself who is present to his Church as Head of his Body, Shepherd of his flock, high priest of the redemptive sacrifice, Teacher of Truth. This is what the Church means by saying that the priest, by virtue of the sacrament of Holy Orders, acts in persona Christi Capitis:23
It is the same priest, Christ Jesus, whose sacred person his minister truly represents. Now the minister, by reason of the sacerdotal consecration which he has received, is truly made like to the high priest and possesses the authority to act in the power and place of the person of Christ himself (virtute ac persona ipsius Christi).24
Christ is the source of all priesthood: the priest of the old law was a figure of Christ, and the priest of the new law acts in the person of Christ.25”

 

[Ryan1]

Thank you for clarifying.

 

[vsedriver]

If so, cannot women act “IPC” when baptizing and marrying? After all, it is Christ who baptizes and marries through that woman.

no, because anyone can baptize and the couple marry each other, the priest just acts as the witness of the church.

 

[Brendan_64]

We have a faith shortage, not a priest shortage.

I would agree with that, as regards the West. But if we look to places such as Africa, India and also I believe Poland, I believe there are plenty of priests. Perhaps we need to offer more opportunities for priests from more faithful parts of the world to come to us, to minister to us, to evangelise us, and to revitalise our faith?

 

[CTBcin]

I find it hard to marginalize the exclusion from leadership roles of one out of every two human beings as “today’s cause.”

This is one thing I’ve observed about arguments for women’s ordination. Advocates are always focused on words like leadership and power. It’s never about pastoring, caring for Christ’s flock, or feeding them through the sacraments. It’s about power. I don’t want that mindset from any priest (male or otherwise). But the fact that advocates for women’s ordination are focused on these things is very troubling to me and is yet another reason why I’ll never advocate for women’s ordination.

 

[on_the_hill]

You can call it whatever you want. Leadership and pastoring should be synonymous.

 

[Crocus]

If He wanted a female priest, He would have picked His Mother or Mary Magdalene.

Surely one could find a more appropriate example of contemporary women when Jesus was choosing apostles; Mary Magdalene, maaay-be (if Jesus wanted women priests), but IMO Mother Mary already had her life filled with a unique vocation, let’s not burden her with another role huh?

 

[WingsOfEagles]

phil19034:

If He wanted a female priest, He would have picked His Mother or Mary Magdalene.

Surely one could find a more appropriate example of contemporary women when Jesus was choosing apostles; Mary Magdalene, maaay-be (if Jesus wanted women priests), but IMO Mother Mary already had her life filled with a unique vocation, let’s not burden her with another role huh?

Joanna, Susanna …

 

[Crocus]

Joanna, Susanna

Nice! Joanna (one of the women who brought myrrh to Jesus’ tomb), is my daughter’s middle name.

I admit my knowledge of women’s names in the bible is lacking. There are many more though, that perform vital roles in the service of the Church, living their vocation, without taking priesthood.

 

[Dovekin]

I don’t think it’s so much a shortage in ‘faith’ as it is a shortage in ‘willingness to hear and respond to God’s call’…

Yes, the bishops of the world need to be more willing “to hear and respond to God’s call.” There are people who wish to work with them to care for the Church, and they seem unable to hear.

 

[GospelOfMatthew]

The Priest shortage ebbs and flows. My diocese 5 years ago under the old bishop had a very serious priest shortage and they were closing parishes. Now with a new bishop, we have so many new seminarians and priests that we can’t fund them all and have to send them to other dioceses (and my diocese is a big one with lots of money). There’s also so many deacons to be ordained soon they have had to reject deaconate applicants. Right now there is no shortage at all!

 

[Gorgias]

Yes, the bishops of the world need to be more willing “to hear and respond to God’s call.”

Wow: “the bishops misunderstand what God is doing” is quite a bold assertion…

There are people who wish to work with them to care for the Church, and they seem unable to hear.

This is the fun part of the discussion of ‘alternate’ ordinations. Here’s the thing: how does a person know that he’s been called to be a priest? Is it an inner sense? Is it something that’s an experience of the person alone?

The Church says that there’s a certain nuptial dimension to the priesthood, so it’s valuable to look at things from that perspective. Let’s ask the same thing about a person who wants to marry. (@Dovekin, I don’t know your gender, but for the sake of this example, I’m going to assume you’re female.) So, if I wake up one morning and say “you know, that @Dovekin is one heck of an awesome Catholic woman! I can feel God’s plan working in me – He wants me to marry Dovekin!”

The question then becomes “how do we discern if God wishes Gorgias and Dovekin to marry?” Is it merely an inner feeling I’m having? Is it based solely on my personal experience? Or do you, Dovekin, have a say in the matter? And, if you say “no”, then wouldn’t we decide that this isn’t what God had in mind (because the potential spouse is sitting there saying, “no, that’s not what God has in mind; I do not assent, and therefore, God couldn’t possibly have this in mind!”).

With that in mind, let’s look back at the priesthood. If anyone – be they man, woman, or Labrador retriever – says “God is calling me to be a priest”, is that therefore necessarily true, merely on the assertion of the individual person? Or, isn’t it true that, in order to decide that God, indeed, wishes it, then the Church must assent to the assertion? (And, if the Church says ‘no’, then it means, analogously to our marriage discussion, then the answer is not only “no”, but also, “it is not true that God wills it.”)

 

[ontheway1]

That’s an immigration question, and our government makes it difficult for Cath priests to come and work in the US.

 

[otjm]

There have been more martyrs in the 20th century than all the previous centuries combined.

You may or may not be correct as a percentage of all Catholics, but the persecution of Catholics and other Christians is intense, and in some areas, most definitely results in death. In the US, the persecution is perhaps couched in a way that is not as obvious; but if you want a very tiny sliver, look at the questioning of Judge Amy Coney Barrett.

 

[otjm]

While I understand your comments about how StJemma opened the discussion, I found the information helpful. I have been on our parish RCIA team for about 25 years. Something like 10 years ago we had a young woman join RCIA; she traveled a good distance but came because she had heard about our specific group.

It was helpful to me and the rest of the team to know her background (she was an engineer at Intel) as it was clear from the get-go that simplistic presentations were not going to be of any use (having been raised on the Baltimore Catechism, I understand that many Catholics do not get exceedingly farther into theology than the basics).

The young woman had an issue she struggled with through most of the program, and finally the issue fell into place. What was helpful, I say again, was knowing her background.

And I don’t find any objection to StJemma noting she is an attorney, any more than I would if someone said they were a Lutheran or Seventh Day Adventist or Latter Day Saint. At least I know where our starting point is.

 

[Dovekin]

Hmmm.

Yes. That is exactly my point.

It is the Church, through the bishops, who calls people and judges if people can be priests. So if someone is not hearing God calling people to the priesthood, it has to be the bishops. Individuals can hear and respond, but that does not mean anything if the bishops do not also hear that call.

I am glad we agree?

 

[stpurl]

How is that? What exactly is the policy regarding ‘foreign’ priests? Does it differ depending on whether they are ‘secular’ (i.e. diocesean) or from a particular order? Does it depend on the bishop or patriarch of the diocese?

 

[WingsOfEagles]

That’s an immigration question, and our government makes it difficult for Cath priests to come and work in the US.

I don’t know, we have multiple priests in my diocese from overseas right now. Most of them are from India.

 

[Gorgias]

It is the Church, through the bishops, who calls people and judges if people can be priests. So if someone is not hearing God calling people to the priesthood, it has to be the bishops.

Two thoughts:

• First, is there a way to distinguish between “the bishops aren’t hearing God calling people to the priesthood” and “people aren’t hearing that it’s not God who is ‘calling’ them to the priesthood”? If there is not, then how can you assert that one is true, over above the other?
• Second, you worked a crafty sleight of hand into your statement. Without fanfare, you changed the statement from “the Church … judges if people can be priests” to “the bishops [are] not hearing God calling.” If it’s the Church who judges, then it’s the bishops who judge. And therefore, it’s the bishops – who, after all, are successors to the apostles – who validly judge. So, when they judge… how can you say that they judge inaccurately?

It’s a nice dodge, and one well played. But, if it’s the Church who judges, and the Church is saying ‘no’… then how can you say that they’re in error?

We agree in one thing: the Church says ‘no’. For some reason, you think that the Church to whom Christ gave authority is mistaken. That’s where we disagree.