Issues with Catholic teaching on procreation

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I needed this video for myself today, too.

m.youtube.com/watch?v=GSayMXTaQY8

Here’s the 45 min. on him:

m.youtube.com/watch?v=e0oRBKbRYnY
I am very aware of the inspirational life of Nick Vujicic. However, his condition is a physical abnormality that occurs by chance, its not hereditary. I am talking about people knowingly reproducing known genetic diseases and or/not taking steps to decrease chances of having a child with a disorder (ex. folic acid to prevent spina bifida). Obviously, people with genetic diseases and handicaps make contributions to society everyday and if some couples see no problem with passing the struggles of a hereditary disease onto other innocent human beings down the generations because they expect that human to have the same outlook or make the same contributions as others with their condition, then they do. Maybe the kid will or maybe they won’t and maybe they’ll be happy to just be born or maybe they’ll end up hating there parents.

And two can play this game:

m.youtube.com/watch?v=JI3D637UXn8

m.youtube.com/watch?v=Gy9A68on49I

These videos show the suffering of a child with EB syndrome. This is also not an isolated case, many kids with this condition have wounds all over there body just like this. Can he make good contributions in this world, yes. However, should his disease be passed down to others knowingly so other children must endure what he has just so there parents can have a baby? No.
 
Unchecked human-reproduction is creating death?

Huh?

I would have to blame a lack of clean water supply and unsanitary conditions, as well as other political and environmental causes as the major source of death. People in poor countries are not dogs to be neutered, and should NEVER be educated as not having enough dignity to practice self-control. There are much better ways to offer a helping hand…
Good.

I am not the only one who sees the not so subtle racism here.

The post with the terms “dumb native” comes to mind.
 
You have your opinion and I’ll have mine. Thankfully I actually care about the children I might bring into the world and take into consideration the impact my decision might have on there life, and want to take responsible actions BEFORE a child gets conceived. Its obvious not everyone does.
You are quite right to care about the predicament of children you may bring into the world. I think most everyone does. Any your judgement that you should not procreate (in light of serious risk of seriously bad outcomes) is surely yours to make, and your decision may be good and proper. I presume the only matter of any substantive debate is the means you adopt to avoid procreating.
 
The “means” I adopt is called, common sense.
What Rau was trying to say by “means” is the method used to avoid an unhealthy pregnancy; birth control, abstinence, or strict use of NFP. And you want to go with birth control, and don’t care whether it is against church teaching or not because you are the one with the common sense, not the church. Am I right?
 
Desiring sex with your wife is not a sin and since you are not forcing sex on her (rape), you are not objectifying her. Your not sinning by wanting physical intimacy with your spouse and there is nothing sinful about having incompatible sex drives.
No. You misunderstand. I know I’m not sinning my wanting physical intimacy with my wife.

The lust and objectification take place when my wife and I engage in unchaste relations due to her lack of wanting to engage in the marital act. Not to be graphic, but during those instances, I’m “using her” for my own needs and while she is a willing participant, she is not receiving anything out of it. It’s totally a one way street.

This is happening because she’s not open to life and I currently do not have the willpower to remain in a state of continence.

Please pray for me.
 
Truly heroic, Phil. What a difficult situation. You and your wife are in my prayers.
 
What Rau was trying to say by “means” is the method used to avoid an unhealthy pregnancy; birth control, abstinence, or strict use of NFP. And you want to go with birth control, and don’t care whether it is against church teaching or not because you are the one with the common sense, not the church. Am I right?
If the debate is about the “common sense” of contraception, then in fact the focus is the predicament of the parent(s), not the potential child.
 
I’ve had an issue with Catholic teachings on procreation. I know the dogma,but I would love to hear how you deal with it.
It’s doctrine, not dogma. Dogma is official infallible definitions. It’s a doctrine. In this case, it is the Church being very specific about how the principles of Catholic Moral teachings apply to something very specific. The principles matter more than the conclusion. Anyone using the conclusion as if it were a moral principle will fall into moral problems when they try to reason through moral situations that the Church doesn’t directly address.

In this case, the primary root of this teaching rests on Natural Law Theory. I have yet to read a formulation over how the natural law reaches it’s conclusion that makes sense to me and I feel this often leaves me at a level of an obedience to the specific teaching while struggling to figure out moral situations the Church doesn’t speak on. I believe in natural law theory. I just need to study it more.

JP II’s Theology of the Body has been very influential, and I love it but I find most people who do follow the teaching do so out of obedience more than conviction. Most of us are still seeking understanding and trying to form our consciences rightly around it.
However I see the prohibition or contraceptives and the sin of abortions, in anything less than extraordinary conditions as one exacerbating the other. I’d rather see an conception not happen than a child aborted.
I don’t think the Catholics who embrace the teaching regarding contraceptives are more likely to abort. In fact, I’d say they’re far less likely. That said, in regard to public policy, contraceptive overall does decrease the rate of abortion though it doesn’t touch about the ratio. Whereas most GOP policies tend to result in a higher abortion rate while the ratio remains the same as well.

I do think anyone who thinks restricting access to contraceptives will undo the harms of the sexual revolution. The dam already broke and taking away people’s boats isn’t going to do anything. But this isn’t a disagreement on doctrine. It’s a disagreement on HOW to promote morality, much like how people can have differing ideas over how to combat prostitution. There are actually Catholic countries where prostitution is legal and the Church encourages it to be so because what’s actually illegal is the hiring of a prostitute. As such, you imprison the person hiring the prostitute, not the prostitute and destroy the market. But that seems backward to some people. Again, we’re free to disagree there and still be faithful Catholics.
men did not have to wear white at their wedding to display their virtue.
The white wedding gown tradition orginates from the 19th century. Queen Victoria wore white simply because she liked white. It’s hard to say how it became a symbol of virginity, though our priest talked about it as us wearing our baptismal garmets. You can attach whatever meaning you want to it. It’s not a part of the actual wedding liturgy.
Also I see some social justice issues with the prohibition of condoms.
What’s funny, is that the USCCB was actually having a discussion on this and taking the situation seriously in the 80’s. Then Cardinal Ratzinger made a statement that scared the bishops away from discussing it. Then, as Pope, he made an analogy about a gay prostitute with HIV and how he’s taking a better step in putting on a condom than having sex without one, but it’s still less than perfect. The point was we’re called to holiness, but people freaked out by his statement.

In this case, I’d say the big issue is that the Church (as in the faithful members) have been so concerned about being clear that contraceptives are immoral, that they’re afraid of addressing the use of a condom because they know if they go into depth and are exact about Church teaching, the media will generalize some random statement and it’ll lead likely to Catholics deciding contraceptives are being okayed now for some reason.

It’s a bit of group think going on, and I think any clarification about more ambigious and complicated areas of Catholic morality is going to rest upon a well articulated explanation of Natural Law theory so that we’re actually reasoning from it rather than using our starting premise as “Condoms are immoral.”
 
In this case, I’d say the big issue is that the Church (as in the faithful members) have been so concerned about being clear that contraceptives are immoral, that they’re afraid of addressing the use of a condom because they know if they go into depth and are exact about Church teaching, the media will generalize some random statement and it’ll lead likely to Catholics deciding contraceptives are being okayed now for some reason.
I’d say that the bigger issue for everyone I personally come into contact with stems from the fact that children just cost more than they used to. There are a lot of legal minimums concerning the care of children that must be met now that were not in place 50 years ago. If I raised mine like the 70-year-old deacon at my church was raised (in the rural south with 9 siblings), social services would show up and break-up my home.

The average American income simply cannot support an unlimited number of kids. For a family with children, there exists a very real economic stopping point.

“The pill” was such an elegant solution. The classic arguments against contraception revolved around abortion/death and onanism and the pill simply required none of those things. It was genuinely new.
The Catholic that developed it did so with a pure conscience and thought he was finding a solution to a growing problem that both the Church and humanity would both agree to. Despite the majority of the bishops on his advisory council disagreeing with him, we know how the Pope went on that.

Now the party rhetoric has switched to arguments against “nature” - which is rather dubious; as modern medical science exists to prevent what would otherwise “naturally” happen in most of it’s practices. Modern medicine slows the macular degeneration that would have otherwise “naturally” destroyed your sight. It lowers your high blood pressure that’s largely the “natural” result of obesity. It allows you to live into middle-age with diseases or genetic defects that would have “naturally” killed you in childhood.

There are a lot of Catholics out there who need to “wake up” about the population problem was well. Thanks to petroleum, modern medicine and the death of large-scale conventional war brought on by the existence of nuclear weapons, human population has completely exploded.

Verily, 5% of all people who have ever lived in human history are alive right now.

Regrettably, the population cap on this blue/green marble is not infinite. And we’ve already reached it in many places in the world, as the starvation epidemics prove.

As the nominal faith of a sixth of all humanity, the Catholic Church has an obligation to find an answer to this macroscopic problem. “Have your kids, then you should live as brother and sister” doesn’t appear to be working.
 
There are a lot of Catholics out there who need to “wake up” about the population problem was well. Thanks to petroleum, modern medicine and the death of large-scale conventional war brought on by the existence of nuclear weapons, human population has completely exploded.

Verily, 5% of all people who have ever lived in human history are alive right now.

Regrettably, the population cap on this blue/green marble is not infinite. And we’ve already reached it in many places in the world, as the starvation epidemics prove.

As the nominal faith of a sixth of all humanity, the Catholic Church has an obligation to find an answer to this macroscopic problem. “Have your kids, then you should live as brother and sister” doesn’t appear to be working.
There is no population problem. Europe and many parts of Asia are on the decline. All modern famines are not due to a lack of food but a serious flaw in the distribution process. Not just Yemen, Nigeria, South Sudan or Somalia right now, Ethiopia of the 1980s and further back are included.
 
population explosion over the course of 200 years is due to advances in medicine and therefore longer lives. But the danger in birth control is that there is a lack of replacement, and the population becomes top-heavy. This leads to serious threats economically, because you see, young, healthy happy people can actually be resources, not dregs. People plant food, trees, aid forms of life in resproduction to feed their villages. People come up with technology to find and clean water sources. Water can be cleaned and renewed. There are ways.
The earth is huge, and the entire population of the world can fit into the Southeast United States with an acre per person to spare.
If explosion of more human lives were such a problem, there would not be such a thing as cities. People need each other. We need to be close to eachother to trade our resources and enjoy each other’s company, ideas, laughter.

Yes, birth dearth happens when you start medicating yourself with birth control and begin equating sons and daughters with types of natural processes such as aging and obesity. We can throw in diarrhea as well. If it’s kept at the level of a petri dish, one can also realize that sons and daughters will be taking care of parents in old age. That’s when birth dearth really starts to become a problem.

More on population growth and decline here:
ourworldindata.org/world-population-growth/
 
Some population decline would probably be a good thing. Having less traffic in places like Los Angeles would be a good thing.
 
I agree fully. The most commonly batted around number for Earth’s human population cap is somewhere around 10-12 billion. So one way or another, populations will decline.

Luckily I probably won’t be around to see the horrors of when they do.
population explosion over the course of 200 years is due to advances in medicine and therefore longer lives.
You should add to that petroleum (both as a transit fuel and a synthetic fertilizer) and the lack of large-scale, conventional and generational war in a post-nuclear age.
The earth is huge, and the entire population of the world can fit into the Southeast United States with an acre per person to spare.
Unfortunately, that may not be correct nor relevant.

First, the US in total is about 2.5 billion acres - including Alaska. That’s about 3 people per acre, falsely assuming all the land is available for arable distribution (no mountains, permafrost or anything like that). It also assumes that people don’t require space for other purposes, like shelter.
If explosion of more human lives were such a problem, there would not be such a thing as cities.
I don’t see how your conclusion follows from that premise.
If it’s kept at the level of a petri dish, one can also realize that sons and daughters will be taking care of parents in old age. That’s when birth dearth really starts to become a problem.
Maybe in previous generations that was true. Currently, adult kids “lovingly” toss their aging and demanding parents into nursing homes and stop by on the occasional weekend - if at all. This is sadly common to the point of being blase.

I genuinely don’t see how someone can look at the human population growth in the last 50 years and not see an issue. I’m dumbstruck by it, actually.

Are we looking at the same graph?
 
Maybe in previous generations that was true. Currently, adult kids “lovingly” toss their aging and demanding parents into nursing homes and stop by on the occasional weekend - if at all. This is sadly common to the point of being blase.
So do you expect children to stay home to take care of aging parents instead of putting them in nursing homes? If they did, how would these children make a living? Most families do not have stay-at-home women who can take care of aging parents any more.
 
And I know, Vonsalza that you were trying to make a point against angel’s argument on natural law. So then, these are natural processes of the body as well (i.e. Aging, diarrhea etc) and that medication is allowed in these instances. And a pregnancy in certain instances would be considered unhealthy as well. But the argument is not so much that it is a natural process, but that it is a natural process that contains the powers of life, family, and relationship. This natural process is what all of man and the story of family and redemption and God are about. We do not separate it out into petri dishes. It’s not to be messed with. It’s like opening Pandora’s box.
 
So do you expect children to stay home to take care of aging parents instead of putting them in nursing homes? If they did, how would these children make a living? Most families do not have stay-at-home women who can take care of aging parents any more.
Well, and the fact is, most people don’t have saved income to put themselves into a nursing home. And who is running the nursing home and producing the foods and medication and healthcare to nurture an aging population?
 
Well, and the fact is, most people don’t have saved income to put themselves into a nursing home. And who is running the nursing home and producing the foods and medication and healthcare to nurture an aging population?
In the US, Medicaid is paying for most people in nursing homes since, as you pointed out, most people don’t have enough saved income or long-term care insurance. And there is a shortage of people to work in places like nursing homes, too, since they don’t pay these people enough, usually only about $10 an hour. That’s not enough to entice most people to do the kind of demanding work required to take care of old or disabled people such as washing them, helping them go to the restroom, changing soiled sheets, dealing with people who have challenging mental impairments like Alzheimer’s, etc.
 
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