Issues with Catholic teaching on procreation

[ATraveller]

This is just a tad dated. We’re over 7 billion now.

Human population is not in decline.

The Malthusian Trap is flawed, which most if not all of these overpopulation scare scenarios are based on.
forbes.com/sites/larahoffmans/2011/10/31/7-billion-reasons-malthus-was-wrong/#5a0f0cba6b7e
This is a very interesting TEDtalk because it explains population growth won’t continue to be exponential and will most likely stop at around 10 billion.
youtube.com/watch?v=ezVk1ahRF78
Or jumping to the relevant portion of the video:
youtube.com/watch?v=ezVk1ahRF78&feature=youtu.be&t=10m18s

 

[faithsmind]

And all we have to do to keep up with Medicaid is to raise the debt ceiling and its alllll taken care of easy peasey. But don’t get me started on that whole thing Thoroflr… :dts:

 

[Vonsalza]

So do you expect children to stay home to take care of aging parents instead of putting them in nursing homes?

I don’t. Apparently faithsmind does, thus my reply.

…This natural process is what all of man and the story of family and redemption and God are about. We do not separate it out into petri dishes. It’s not to be messed with. It’s like opening Pandora’s box.

It’s subjective and arbitrary to say that this particular natural process should be messed with, but then this one is sacrosanct.

You’re free to feel that way, but then your argument is a lot more specific than limiting “offense to nature”. You should clarify it as such.

And who is running the nursing home and producing the foods and medication and healthcare to nurture an aging population?

Presently in the US, Medicaid and Medicare.

When they finally exhaust what remains of your savings and 401(k), the services you’re afforded are substantially trimmed and you live on the public dime - even if you voted republican

My brother is a financial advisor. He’d be happy to tell you why most probates don’t have to worry about dividing what’s left of mom and dad’s retirement account. Hospitals and nursing homes emptied them long before they finally passed.
That’s who you’re ultimately saving for, by the way. Not your kids.

The Malthusian Trap is flawed, which most if not all of these overpopulation scare scenarios are based on.

I am unfamiliar with the trap you mention. I’m only aware that human population has tripled in the last 80 years alone.

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I realize that I’m not going to change anyone’s mind. If you’ve fully internalized that “‘X’ is true” as a non-negotiable, then no one can convince you otherwise.
Thanks for the time.

 

[MarkInOregon]

Heck, the guy who came up with “The Pill” was a Catholic trying to head-off over-population (just look at the Philippines) and familial strain from having too many kids in a post-agrarian age. His method involved no “death” at all - the woman just didn’t ovulate. No ovum? No death. And no onanism. However, the Pope famously dissented because it still frustrated natural function. But apparently the frustration of natural function sought by taking blood pressure meds, cholesterol lowering meds or most modern medicine in general is still A-OK.

You do realize that blood pressure medication/cholesterol lowering medications don’t frustrate a natural function don’t you? These medications attempt to restore a body that is malfunctioning to normalcy. They attempt to correct of defect. Contraception does exactly the opposite of this. It takes a body that is functioning normally and makes it malfunction.

The peace of Christ,
Mark

 

[MarkInOregon]

I also see, as men might not, a patriarchal history to this, not specifically restrained to Catholicism. Women had their virtual held to a higher standards. Sexually active men weren’t whores, men weren’t the “gate keepers”, men did not have to wear white at their wedding to display their virtue. In many way that the pro-life focus is mostly on women, men it seems get a pass because they aren’t “holding the bag”. Given that history, I feel like these things have bias toward how they are applied women.
Thoughts?

Were they held to a higher standard by God or did men simply fail to live up to the standard God was calling them to live up to? Since men have failed to live up to the standard they have been called to–your suggestion is that we should lower the standards? Wouldn’t it be better to call men to live up to the higher standard - to the one God calls us to live up to? Shouldn’t we stop allowing men to get a free pass? Just because society didn’t call men whores–doesn’t mean their behavior was acceptable. Why do we want to race to the bottom? Why do we always want to lower the standards?

The peace of Christ,
Mark

 

[Sarcelle]

Could you elaborate, please?

See post #4.

 

[faithsmind]

I won’t give up nah nah nah
I won’t give up nah nah nah
Let me love you.
Let me love you.

 

[MarkInOregon]

Regrettably, the population cap on this blue/green marble is not infinite. And we’ve already reached it in many places in the world, as the starvation epidemics prove.

People are not starving because there is not enough food in the world–they are starving because it is wasted and misallocated. Look at the amount of food wasted in this country alone. There is no good reason that anyone in the world should be hungry.

The peace of Christ,
Mark

 

[Rau]

People are not starving because there is not enough food in the world–they are starving because it is wasted and misallocated. Look at the amount of food wasted in this country alone. There is no good reason that anyone in the world should be hungry.

The peace of Christ,
Mark

That is true. Whether it remains so is another question - and the answer will depend in part on the future population.

 

[Vonsalza]

You do realize that blood pressure medication/cholesterol lowering medications don’t frustrate a natural function don’t you? These medications attempt to restore a body that is malfunctioning to normalcy. They attempt to correct of defect. Contraception does exactly the opposite of this. It takes a body that is functioning normally and makes it malfunction.

The peace of Christ,
Mark

Respectfully sir, I’ll have to debate you on this. For the overwhelming majority, these issues are not defects. They are the natural and boringly common result of lifestyle choices.

Are there some folks out there with high BP and cholesterol due to genetic issues?
Absolutely. But they are a minority.

When one gets fat, the heart must beat harder and their vessels will constrict in order to continue pushing blood to all the corners of their over-large body. This increase in “line pressure” is represented by higher numbers on your BP meter. It is a “natural” process.

Coincidentally, this is also why most BP issues resolve when the obese individual returns to a healthy weight. “When diet and exercise aren’t enough” is a drug sales-pitch that does not apply to the majority of humanity.

Same goes with cholesterol. If you eat a diet high in fats, but also high in sugars (as to promote near-continuous insulin response), I’ll just about bet my retirement account that you’ll have cholesterol issues if you’re out of your 20s. Again, are there a few out there that are going to have high cholesterol even if they follow a strict vegan diet? Sure. But they’re the extreme minority. They alone can claim some defect.

The rest of us who take BP and cholesterol meds are deliberately frustrating a natural response that comes from our lifestyle choices - not some random malfunction.

 

[Rau]

The medications attempt to compensate for dangerous conditions in a body that is performing poorly - in most cases - due to ill treatment, sometimes due to naturally occurring defect or other cause.

Contraceptive medicines attempt to thwart normal healthy processes in a normal healthy body.

 

[Vonsalza]

The medications attempt to compensate for dangerous conditions a body that - in most cases - is performing poorly due to ill treatment.

You are absolutely right. It’s still a chemically induced frustration of what has naturally manifested.

 

[ThundersnowIV]

Two points.

1.) When you practice contraception, you are in essence saying the act is good, the results are bad.

I am not stating that I am against the Church’s stand on contraception…but that statement is too general and is often not true.

 

[Rau]

You are absolutely right. It’s still a chemically induced frustration of what has naturally manifested.

Frustrate the good, healthy and normal differs from “frustrating” what has gone awry. The latter objectively serves the good. The merits of the former is up for debate.

 

[ThundersnowIV]

When God created us in his image, he created us to participate and assist in creation. The first commandment he gave to humanity was “Go forth and multiply!”

Does it make sense, then, that when we purposefully thwart creation by contracepting, we are breaking this first commandment? Should this be something we stand against?

Through the same logic we should be conceiving baby after baby after baby…etc.

 

[Rau]

Through the same logic we should be conceiving baby after baby after baby…etc.

Why? How much “multiply” do you assume was in God’s mind?

 

[Vonsalza]

Frustrate the good, healthy and normal differs from “frustrating” what has gone awry.

They’ve only “gone awry” because you declare it so.

The point still stands - if you follow poor diet and exercise habits, high BP and cholesterol will naturally occur.

Popping a pill to offset the consequences of these natural bodily responses is quintessentially the frustration of a natural state.

 

[Vonsalza]

By popping that BP pill you’re essentially telling God:

“Lord, the system you’ve devised where my BP raises in order to continue successfully pumping blood to all the nooks of my obese body was very poorly thought out. Raising BP increases my odds of myopathy or megaly occurring with my heart! And having a stroke!
You messed up, God. I’m going to take my beta-blocker and vasodilator in an attempt to correct your design error. Limiting the risks of heart problems is clearly more important than Your design to maintain good blood-flow all over my body.”

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This is why the “frustration of nature” argument doesn’t work very well.

 

[faithsmind]

By popping that BP pill you’re essentially telling God:

“Lord, the system you’ve devised where my BP raises in order to continue successfully pumping blood to all the nooks of my obese body was very poorly thought out. Raising BP increases my odds of myopathy or megaly occurring with my heart! And having a stroke!
You messed up, God. I’m going to take my beta-blocker and vasodilator in an attempt to correct your design error. Limiting the risks of heart problems is clearly more important than Your design to maintain good blood-flow all over my body.”

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This is why the “frustration of nature” argument doesn’t work very well.

Ok, but the difference Btwn BP meds and birth control is that there is an ACT between two consenting individuals involved.

 

[Sarcelle]

By popping that BP pill you’re essentially telling God:

“Lord, the system you’ve devised where my BP raises in order to continue successfully pumping blood to all the nooks of my obese body was very poorly thought out. Raising BP increases my odds of myopathy or megaly occurring with my heart! And having a stroke!
You messed up, God. I’m going to take my beta-blocker and vasodilator in an attempt to correct your design error. Limiting the risks of heart problems is clearly more important than Your design to maintain good blood-flow all over my body.”

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This is why the “frustration of nature” argument doesn’t work very well.

So do you consider female fertility a design error hence the need for the birth control pill?