Issues with Divine Mercy Devotion

[thevickinator16]

One other thing I wanted to ask of those having issues. What is the real reason for these issues? Do you not believe in Saints? Or rather, do you not believe in what the Lord or the Virgin Mary tells the? I have never heard of such commotion over a devotion. It seems to me that there is more to this than just this particular devotion.

Just curious!

God Bless!

 

[Virginia804]

Maybe the devotion itself is fine, and just some people’s interpretation of it is off. What I saw was a DVD, but I don’t know who put it out. It was in there that it described the special graces as equivalent to a second baptism. Here is a link where it is saying the same thing. thedivinemercy.org/news/story.php?NID=2485&PLID=75#comments
Maybe the DVD is from there.
I do believe in the saints, and that through their lives guidience and examples for the whole body of Christ are provided.
It was just that there were several things, such as what I listed before, that concerned me, but I also said there were things about the devotion, such as the image, that I did like.
There is a branch of Catholicism that portrays God as the wrathful God who is waiting to shower down judgement on the earth, and there are some devotions that suggest we ask intercessions of Mary to hold back the wrath of God and have maintly that sort of outlook. The part of the DVD where it was saying that one needed to pray the Divine Mercy Chaplet with the exact words for it to be most effective sounded to me like “magical thinking”. It’s the heart that matters, and if someone wahts to pray using specific words, I don’t think that makes the prayer more effective.

I also had a general sense of concern about the concept of special graces being poured out on that day, but maybe I’m wrong. I just think that someone should not value going to confession and receiving the Eucharist more on one day than another. Every day should be equivalently miraculous, or it seems that the conclusion is that on some days the sacraments are “better” than on others. That seems a dangerous road to go down.

Sorry if I’m not making any sense. But if you read the link above, which I think is from an official Divine Mercy site, you can see what I mean about second baptism comment.

 

[thevickinator16]

I think as with any writing a human can write, there are a number of ways that things are interpeted. I still think that the confusion is about Dr. Stackpole’s wording in his descripitons. Most people are not aware that there are graces of many levels. The Saints just do not wake up and they are a saint. It is through God that this is possible. Many saints say or hear various things. Things only God was responsible for. The holier that you become the more graces God pours on you. Many of us do not realize that these graces are being given. Sometimes we shun these graces in our daily lives for various reasons. This is a day that Jesus put aside not just for those who believe or are without sin. Jesus said also this for the day intended for those whose sins were scarlet. Those who are the most guilty were the ones to get the most. If they do not want these graces then they will be withdrawn and given to some one else. Jesus stated that WE are the ones who do not recognize the graces and do not use them.

Dr Stackpole is using a second Baptism as an analogy. The graces given to the just soul that is pure of sin recieves the greatest graces. It is not the same, just his way of making you understand the pureness associated with the soul that is cleansed of sin. He is not stating it is a second baptism. Just that the condition of the soul is the same.

We know that each time we recieve Jesus through the Eucharist, we recieve graces. If we did not, why would we desire it so much? Is it hard to think that for one day out of the year, next to Easter, that we cannot free ourselves of sin for the graces He has offered and to recieve Him in this state of grace!

Is it not Church teaching that we are to recieve Holy Communion during the Easter season? There is a special signifigance attached to this time. Do we not prepare ourselves for this by going to confession? We do not recieve the Lord properly without going to confession. Many people will say that you only have to go to confession with mortal sin on your soul. The 10 Commandments are not the only rules we sin by. We also have the Virtues to think about and Jesus greatest commandment about loving your neighbor… We sin againt them in many forms. That is why an through examination of conscience is required.

If you read through the saints lives and there writings as well as much of the Church’s writings (the Popes and Doctors), you will find they are all in harmony. No one saint has a conflicting view that opposes Church teachings.

These devotions are intended to enhance our relationships with God. All devotions or intercessions are made first to God and then through the Saints or the Virgin Mary or even the Angels. The whole purpose is to glorify God and only God.

God Bless!

 

[Virginia804]

I think you’re right; we have a fundamental difference in perspective that is probably the source of the debate. I don’t think about graces as something separate from God. I don’t think about getting graces. I’m don’t think about holiness. When I go to confession, I don’t have any prayer of contrition memorized; I say it in my own words and that’s fine with the priest. I am not attracted to devotions like the rosary, but I have no complaint with anyone who is and think it very good to pray.

So, I think because the Divine Mercy devotion and feast talks about receiving special graces, it just doesn’t appeal to my mindset. Someone below mentioned that we have to follow what’s good for us where we are, and so it’s just not something I’m drawn to. Where I am right now I’m just praying to surrender to the will of God.

 

[requieroveritas]

Here is a link where it is saying the same thing. thedivinemercy.org/news/story.php?NID=2485&PLID=75#comments

The part of the DVD where it was saying that one needed to pray the Divine Mercy Chaplet with the exact words for it to be most effective sounded to me like “magical thinking”. It’s the heart that matters, and if someone wahts to pray using specific words, I don’t think that makes the prayer more effective.

I also had a general sense of concern about the concept of special graces being poured out on that day, but maybe I’m wrong. I just think that someone should not value going to confession and receiving the Eucharist more on one day than another.

Is this the comment your referring to?

“The most special grace promised by our Lord for Mercy Sunday is nothing less than the equivalent of a complete renewal of baptismal grace in the soul: “complete forgiveness (remission) of sins and punishment.” Such a measure of grace can only be received otherwise through baptism itself, or through making a sacramental confession as an act of perfect contrition for sin, out of pure love for God.”

There is only a “COMPARRISON” being done here. No one is saying that the promised grace for Divine Mercy Sunday “IS” a second baptism, only that it restores the soul to the same condition the soul was in immediately after baptism; that is, free from sin and with no punishment due for any sin.

As to using the exact words indicated, only Our Lord would know if using prayer from the heart but not the same words, would in His eyes, be the same. I tend to think not. We can pray all during the year and make our prayer as “from the heart” as possible, but we are not offered the same restoration of the soul with these prayers as with the ones offered up for the Divine Mercy. For one thing, I don’t think the average man or woman is capable of offering up prayer that is, “an act of perfect contrition for sin, out of pure love for God.” We just don’t have it in us to do so, even though we try. The saints and very holy people, perhaps could, but we average, everyday individuals are just not that holy.

Examine the words themselves of the Divine Mercy Chaplet:

“Eternal Father, I offer You the Body and Blood, Soul and Divinity of Your dearly beloved Son, Our Lord Jesus Christ, in atonement for our sins and those of the whole world.”

“For the sake of His sorrowful Passion, have mercy on us and on the whole world.”

With these words, we offer back to the Father, the “PERFECT SACRIFICE” of His Son, something we alone are not capable of.

“Holy God, Holy Mighty One, Holy Immortal One, have mercy on us and on the whole world.”

With these words, we render to the Father all glory and honor, praise and exaltation; something which he is due, as our God, but which we very seldom, if ever, give to him. We humble ourselves here, acknowledging that we are nothing and that He is the “ALL,” and we emphasize our humbleness and his position as the Almighty, by repeating this part of the prayer three times. God demands this respect from us, and we owe it to Him.

So, as far as the words are concerned, I do not get hung up on them and you shouldn’t either. When these words are prayed properly, they have much meaning to God, and that is what he wants.

As to the specific day for Divine Mercy Sunday, as many have said here already, it is the Lord who chose the day not us, and there is great significance to this day, or the period just after Easter, as this is when Our Lord, in risen form, appeared to his disciples and gave them this instruction: Math: 20

19 On the evening of that first day of the week, when the doors were locked, where the disciples were, for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood in their midst and said to them, “Peace be with you.” 20 When he had said this, he showed them his hands and his side. The disciples rejoiced when they saw the Lord. 21 (Jesus) said to them again, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, so I send you.” 22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, “Receive the holy Spirit. 23 Whose sins you forgive are forgiven them, and whose sins you retain are retained.”

So you see, this instruction from the Lord is elevated and given even more significance by His establishment of Divine Mercy Sunday.

If you shopped at the same grocery store all year around, but the manager decided to set one particular day aside for a “Sale,” would you question him on his decision or would you take advantage of the “Sale?” So it is with Our Lord’s unfathomable mercy. Don’t fight with the manager; take advantage of the sale.

 

[Ceil-1]

Ah, so that is it. You do not believe in individual graces poured out in individual portions

What you have to understand about these people on the website is, that, unofficially, we believe there is an entire program to our Faith. The various portions of this program are meted out at different times. This program is similar to the program God meted out during Old Testament times. Little and by little, his plan became known down through the centuries. God came and showed Himself when He was ready to unfold a new segment of the plan. Or, He sent messengers.

We are on a need-to-know basis. Just like the military.

Since AD times, the Lord has shown Himself, or sent His messengers to reveal certain aspects of the plan. The main idea and doctrine doesn’t change, but, He continuously calls us to repentance and a renewal of our relationship, because we get lazy and careless. The devil gets stronger and stronger as well, what with all this accumulated sin no one has bothered to repent of. This causes a loss of souls in the long run.

I won’t go over the whole program, but, as an example, Jesus came to reveal His Sacred Heart to St. Mary Alacoque, and a program of reparation for screwing up and living our Christian lives so poorly down through the years. Jesus is a human, after all. He doesn’t like to be dissed any more than we do. Afterward, Mary came to show us that her heart is joined with His, and to invite us to do the same. This is needed in this day and age when we are so far removed from God in ways not seen in the early years.

Then, He started sending His mother to call us to repentance and renewal. Few ever listen to this call.

Then, the darkest moment, so far, in history was about to unfold. (I think worse is on its way). Jesus, Himself, came to St. Faustina to give us the assurance of hope, if we only have Faith in Him. Nothing new, just a reassurance.

Of course we can choose to ignore these calls to repentance, these opportunities to grow in holiness. I think only an idiot would knowingly do such a thing, though. I mean, He practically guarantees us eternal bliss by this simple act of Faith, Love, and Hope. What person in their right mind would pass up such a thing? Only one who convinces himself that it can’t be true. But a Catholic would be kidding him or her self in this, because such gifts are very consistent with Biblical and Church history.

I hope that helps a little. Those of us who bind ourselves to these devotions know that the Lord counts on us, and that He requires meticulous attention to detail and every ounce of effort on our part. If you have not reached that level, yet, then it is not required of you. Just do your sincere best. Let God do the rest.

 

[Virginia804]

Yes that’s the quote. That’s what the DVD said - it’s like a second Baptism.
It all seems backwards to me. It was Christ who offered himself up.
And it was for more than atonement; it was God becoming man so that we could become the sons of God.

I absolutely agree we should be praying for everyone in the whole world, and however one does that is fine.

I think there’s not point in going on with this. I just don’t see things from the perspective that would make that appeal to me, but maybe someday that will change. As long as the Church doesn’t require it of me, I’m fine, and if someone else wants to do it and it is of value to them in their walk, that’s fine too.

And, no, it does not make sense to me to think of the special graces on a certain day as being like a sale. The sacraments are of infinite good at any point in time, so it doesn’t make sense to make something more infinite.

 

[thevickinator16]

Hey there!

I just wanted to add one thing else. St Paul, who never met the Lord in the flesh, said we should pray unceasingly to God. Every moment of our lives should reflect God. If we try and do this completely on our own, we do get lax about prayer. Formal prayers and devotions give us a structure for our prayers. These can help us “make time” for the Lord. It does me better sometimes to recite the rosary or say the chaplet or some other form of prayer, than to depend on myself to pray alone. My spirit is willing, my flesh is weak. These prayers and devotions ground me in prayer. I can’t express enough how prayer has changed my life and centered me on Jesus. I am the happiest I have ever been in 52 years. I owe this to prayer in all forms.

I hope that these posts from all of us stay fresh in your mind. If it were not for a desire in your soul, you would never have asked any questions to begin with. I do believe this.

God Bless from the Mercy swimmer!

 

[Virginia804]

I just want God. And to do God’s will. I’m not looking for guarantees. I figure one is never done repenting because I figure I fall every day. I think it’s just like some people may be drawn to certain orders over others, some devotions may appeal to some and not others. No problem with that.

If someone’s relationship with Christ is improved by fixed form prayers, then great, that is what is good for them and they should use them. But others, like Brother Lawrence, did not find them useful. Not everyone is the same.

I’m not saying someone who is following the devotion shouldn’t. Whatever draws one closer to God is a good thing. All I wanted to know is if someone else had the same concerns about the devotion that I had.

I’ve expressed my concerns and gotten your (name removed by moderator)ut, so that’s that. Your replies did not make the devotion more appealing to me. But really, I think there is no point going on with this. We should just wish each other the best in Christ and get on with God’s will in our lives. I’m not even going to read any more replies to this thread.

 

[Angels_Unaware]

Yes that’s the quote. That’s what the DVD said - it’s like a second Baptism.
It all seems backwards to me. It was Christ who offered himself up.
And it was for more than atonement; it was God becoming man so that we could become the sons of God.

The atonement was made for all, but it is up to us to indvidually participate in that atonement, and to apply it to our lives and to our sin. I am guessing your problem may be that you are seeing this through a Protestant theology which is still deep within your interpretation of spiritual things. Jesus offered himself as an atonement of sin, so when we stand before the Father, we do not spurn that great gift, but offer it up to Him on behalf of ourselves and on the whole world. We are actively participating in the purification process by applying the great gift of Christ’s sacrifice to our individual lives and situations when we pray this chaplet. You have it right so that we may be sons of God. This is how we become children of God, by applying the grace to our lives when we stand before the Father.

And, no, it does not make sense to me to think of the special graces on a certain day as being like a sale. The sacraments are of infinite good at any point in time, so it doesn’t make sense to make something more infinite.

Grace and mercy are always available, but on this day those graces and mercies are more manifest, by God’s providence. This day is meant to draw those who feel too sinful to approach God. This is God’s enormous effort to draw those who are hiding from Him in darkness.

I think we should be careful about labelling our liturgy, prayers, and special days “magical thinking”. A true understanding of that term is that there are no invisible things, and our thoughts and actions have no invisible effects. Nobody who is a Christian believes that. All Christians believe in interacting with the invisible through prayer. A strict understanding of the term magical thinking would relegate prayer to this category.

C.S. Lewis used the term “deep magic” to convey the idea of spiritual realities, in an allegorical sense.

 

[Virginia804]

I forgot one more thing: I apologize to all of your for even bringing it up in the first place.
I don’t think it helped anyone, and probably wasted a lot of everyone’s time that would have been better spent on other things. I apologize if I offended anyone.

 

[thevickinator16]

I forgot one more thing: I apologize to all of your for even bringing it up in the first place.
I don’t think it helped anyone, and probably wasted a lot of everyone’s time that would have been better spent on other things. I apologize if I offended anyone.

You did not waste my time.

Have a truly blessed and inspired day and go in peace. God loves you!

God Bless!

 

[requieroveritas]

I forgot one more thing: I apologize to all of your for even bringing it up in the first place.
I don’t think it helped anyone, and probably wasted a lot of everyone’s time that would have been better spent on other things. I apologize if I offended anyone.

Nor my time.

May the peace of the Lord be with you.

 

[JReducation]

Yes that’s the quote. That’s what the DVD said - it’s like a second Baptism.
It all seems backwards to me. It was Christ who offered himself up.
And it was for more than atonement; it was God becoming man so that we could become the sons of God.

I absolutely agree we should be praying for everyone in the whole world, and however one does that is fine.

I think there’s not point in going on with this. I just don’t see things from the perspective that would make that appeal to me, but maybe someday that will change. As long as the Church doesn’t require it of me, I’m fine, and if someone else wants to do it and it is of value to them in their walk, that’s fine too.
**
And, no, it does not make sense to me to think of the special graces on a certain day as being like a sale. The sacraments are of infinite good at any point in time, so it doesn’t make sense to make something more infinite.**

The bold is mine. I think what you’re struggling with is Sacred Tradition. While the Church does require that we observe Mercy Sunday, she does require that all Catholics believe her teachings regarding plenary indulgences and her authority to grant them, because it ties in with her power to bind and unbind, to forgive sins and to withhold them.

For example, ones sins are not forgiven, if the priest choses not to forgive them. Christ does not overrule the priest. He has given this power to the Church and he does not rescind it. Therefore, it is part of Sacred Tradition that we believe in the Church’s authority to declare plenary indulgences on certain days or certain events. This has been done for 2000 years.

For example, there is a plenary indulgence for certain celebrations of papal masses. There are plenary indulgences for certain pilgrimages. There are plenary indulgences for the Franciscan Order on the feast of our Lady of the Angels, because she’s the patroness of our first mother house.

In all of these ocurrences the Holy See has granted the gift of total absolution from both sin and culpability and a return to the state of the soul as it is immediately after Baptism.

We do not have to take advantage of any of these; but we do have to believe that they are valid and that they are as the Church teaches. That part we are bound to believe as Catholics. It is part of Tradition and revealed to us through scripture.

I hope this helps.

Fraternally,

JR

 

[requieroveritas]

I forgot one more thing: I apologize to all of your for even bringing it up in the first place.
I don’t think it helped anyone, and probably wasted a lot of everyone’s time that would have been better spent on other things. I apologize if I offended anyone.

You did not waste my time either, nor that of others who have been engaged here, speaking with you.

For one, many, many people have come to this thread but did not post to it. I think perhaps many of them learned something of the Divine Mercy Devotion that they did not know. I feel somewhat saddened that we were not able to better communicate to you the value of the devotion. We all need prayer, and I will ask you to pray for us, and I, at least, will keep you in my prayers, and when I say the Divine Mercy Prayers, I will ask our Lord to keep you safely under his wing.

May the peace of the Lord be with you.

 

[Angels_Unaware]

I forgot one more thing: I apologize to all of your for even bringing it up in the first place.
I don’t think it helped anyone, and probably wasted a lot of everyone’s time that would have been better spent on other things. I apologize if I offended anyone.

I forgot one thing as well! One thing about the special graces of Divine Mercy Sunday you may not have heard is that there is a reason why Jesus would withold them from someone on this day. He said that he would not give great mercies to those who will not demonstrate that mercy to other people. God is always the same- today, yesterday, and always, but we are not. Perhaps if you see it from the perspective that it is not God who is becoming more merciful on this day, but God who is giving us more of the grace that is already there by allowing us to become as merciful as He is.

Another thing… this may not be convincing for you, since you don’t sound like you are familiar with Our Lady of Fatima, but the Angel of Portugal taught the three shephard children to pray a prayer very similar to the Divine Mercy chaplet before the Blessed Mother’s first appearance.

 

[diggerdomer]

This was a decision of the CELAM (Conferencia Episcopal de Latino America) Latin American Episcopal Conference. The reason is actually very simple. The concept of solemnity in Spanish culture is different from our own. Solemnity in the Spanish culture means a high holy day, which is normally a holy day of obligation. Therefore, they use the word “feast” when it is not a holy day of obligation. It is a language issue, not a theological one. They still maintain feast by classes (first, second and third). They have no memorials either. They have solemnities and feasts.

I didn’t know this myself until I read about it in this thread by Eastern Catholics/Byzantine Catholics.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=245308

Hoope that helps.

Fraternally,

JR

Thanks, but this did not address my primary question about Solemnities. For Roman Catholics, as I understand it, Solemnities are defined universally by the General Norms for the Liturgical Year.

There was no “new” Solemnity for Divine Mercy Sunday…that devotion was simply appended to or allowed to be observed coincident with the second Sunday of Easter.

This is a separate issue from holy days of obligation.

I have no problem with those who choose to observe the private (optional) Divine Mercy devotion, as long as it does not improperly intrude upon the public (obligatory) liturgy of the Church, most especially in the highest season of Easter.

 

[JReducation]

Thanks, but this did not address my primary question about Solemnities. For Roman Catholics, as I understand it, Solemnities are defined universally by the General Norms for the Liturgical Year.

There was no “new” Solemnity for Divine Mercy Sunday…that devotion was simply appended to or allowed to be observed coincident with the second Sunday of Easter.

This is a separate issue from holy days of obligation.

I have no problem with those who choose to observe the private (optional) Divine Mercy devotion, as long as it does not improperly intrude upon the public (obligatory) liturgy of the Church, most especially in the highest season of Easter.

This was a decision made by John Paul II. He had the authority to do so. The logic was that it fit into the spirit of the Easter season.

I’m not sure how we can even object to something that a pope has the right to do and something that has not done any harm to the Church, the liturgy or the Easter season.

Fraternally,

JR

 

[tee_eff_em]

Examples? Solemnities are not, to my knowledge, left to the decision of particular regions or conferences.

While I do not believe a particular calendar may supress nor lower the rank of a solemnity appearing in the general calendar, it may raise the rank of a lesser feast of the general calendar or insert a solemnity (or any other ranking feast) not appearing in the general calendar.

Thanks, but this did not address my primary question about Solemnities. For Roman Catholics, as I understand it, Solemnities are defined universally by the General Norms for the Liturgical Year.

But then they may be further defined by a particular calendar.

There was no “new” Solemnity for Divine Mercy Sunday…that devotion was simply appended to or allowed to be observed coincident with the second Sunday of Easter.

I believe this is correct. I do not believe any changes were made to the liturgy of the day, only that the existing Solemnity of the Second Sunday of Easter has been given a new designation, Divine Mercy Sunday. From the homily of John Paul II on the canonization of St Faustina:

It is important then that we accept the whole message that comes to us from the word of God on this Second Sunday of Easter, which from now on throughout the Church will be called “Divine Mercy Sunday”. In the various readings, the liturgy seems to indicate the path of mercy which, while re-establishing the relationship of each person with God, also creates new relations of fraternal solidarity among human beings. Christ has taught us that "man not only receives and experiences the mercy of God, but is also called "to practise mercy’ towards others: “Blessed are the merciful, for they shall obtain mercy’ (*Mt *5: 7)” (Dives et misericordia, n. 14). He also showed us the many paths of mercy, which not only forgives sins but reaches out to all human needs. Jesus bent over every kind of human poverty, material and spiritual.

tee