Issues with "the Rapture"

[BOMC]

They’re all nothing but the result of people looking too deep into things…Honestly, I never thought being a Doubting Thomas had such a very good benefit: immunity to deception.

I agree, the caution of deception may not be from something dark and mysterious, but rather something convincingly in the wrong direction.

According to the word of God, EVERYONE will know and be warned about the deceiver and will be cautioned not to align; it will just not be convenient to be a Christian anymore, and the hypocrites will be exposed.

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

I too enjoy rts games like warcraft but i won’t deny that alot of the games characters and character abilities are based on the occult and occult beliefs and practices. Becasue “occult stuff” in your terms has no resemblance to you of the things in these games and books it does not make that statement true.

Magic and mythical creatures such as dwarves, elves and orc and lets not forget wizards, are all a part of magical lore and practice. Seasoned witches have written about summoning many of the mythical creatures showcased so attractively in warcraft and lord of the rings. Even though these games and books are not as focused on magic as say harry potter (which is mind blowingly occultic), they have strong undertones of occult practices with heroes employing necromancy and the use of magic and oracles. If you read your jerusalem bible you would agree that these things are all forbidden.

Well I’ve researched a bit into what many modern, self-proclaimed pagans and Wiccans practice and I’ve noted the strong following differences.

1. Nothing’s really happening when they cast a “spell”. They don’t shoot fireballs, they don’t conjure blizzards. Heck they don’t even turn people into toads. Neither can I actually summon a dragon and make it do stuff like take me to school or fight against other monsters.
2. The creatures you mentioned don’t exist and there’s a huge difference between them what you’ve just insinuated. I’m familiar with the concept of summoning “dwarves” (or dwende as they are called here in my country) but these things are treated as spiritual entities. The universes of Tolkien and Azeroth (along with so many others) present these beings as actual, flesh-and-blood living creatures.
3. Magic in the mentioned universes also do not seem to have the same negative effects as they do in our universe. You don’t see mages in Warcraft getting possessed by demons or the spirits in Shaman King turning out to be demons in disguise. In our world though, that’s the type of stuff that exactly happens when people dabble in “magic”.

So while they may not affect you (you’re maybe fairly well grounded), they are suggestive and alluring anought to entice alot of other people and children in particular into dabbling in the dark arts. I saw a documentary in which occult and migic practitioners admit that they use conventions for rts and rpg games like dungeons and dragons and warhammer to recruit young people into their occult circles.

Can I see this documentary? I’m very skeptical of such things though I don’t want to jump to conclusions.

 

[kinja]

Well I’ve just looked up Sword of Shannara and frankly, I don’t see anything wrong with it. If you’re saying it’s something along the lines of anti-God series such as the His Dark Materials then I’d change my opinion in a snap.

Just to clarify. I read the sword of shannara long before i even heard about the lord of the rings. I loved the sword. I have the same opinion of it as i have of lotr today though. Fantasy is nice but most people don’t realise that many of the characters in these “stories” are not made up but are actually channelled by some individuals in history through occultic practices with the help of familiar spirits.

I really don’t mean to sound fundamentalist but we need to educate our young in particular that magic is not of God in any way shape or form. Christianity and Magic are diametrically opposed. Christianity=through God all things are possible, rely on God and His will. Magic and Witchcraft= through your own will, imagination and the craft all things are possible. You have infinite potential (you are god). Rely on yourself and use the forces of nature to effect YOUR will.

Thus when Gandalf raises his hand or staff in LOTR and light or lightning issues from it, this cannot be confused with any miracle as God is not intreated at all by this wizard but magic. So let’s stop trying to make reality conform to our comfort zones as Catholics and call a spade a spade when we see it.

 

[BOMC]

It’s my understanding that we have been in the last days or end times since Pentecost as proclaimed by the apostle Peter in Acts 2:16-21:

16 but this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel: 17* ‘And in the last days it shall be, God declares, that I will pour out my Spirit upon all flesh, and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams; 18 yea, and on my menservants and my maidservants in those days I will pour out my Spirit; and they shall prophesy. 19 And I will show wonders in the heaven above and signs on the earth beneath, blood, and fire, and vapor of smoke; 20 the sun shall be turned into darkness and the moon into blood, before the day of the Lord comes, the great and manifest day. 21 And it shall be that whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.’

Therefore - since the apostles were divinely inspired to teach that we are in the end times via the downpouring of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost and these same apostles didn’t teach the rapture from the proof that the teachings didn’t appear for the first 1800s years of Christianity, then how does that fit in with the generally accepted belief that public revelation ended with the death of the last apostle? Or does not everyone accept the teaching that public revelation ended with the death of the last apostle?

Put a bridle on that pony. What do you want to discuss first - the reference to Joel, the Holy Spirit, or revelation?

 

[CWBetts]

I too enjoy rts games like warcraft but i won’t deny that alot of the games characters and character abilities are based on the occult and occult beliefs and practices. Becasue “occult stuff” in your terms has no resemblance to you of the things in these games and books it does not make that statement true.

Magic and mythical creatures such as dwarves, elves and orc and lets not forget wizards, are all a part of magical lore and practice. Seasoned witches have written about summoning many of the mythical creatures showcased so attractively in warcraft and lord of the rings. Even though these games and books are not as focused on magic as say harry potter (which is mind blowingly occultic), they have strong undertones of occult practices with heroes employing necromancy and the use of magic and oracles. If you read your jerusalem bible you would agree that these things are all forbidden.

So while they may not affect you (you’re maybe fairly well grounded), they are suggestive and alluring anought to entice alot of other people and children in particular into dabbling in the dark arts. I saw a documentary in which occult and migic practitioners admit that they use conventions for rts and rpg games like dungeons and dragons and warhammer to recruit young people into their occult circles.

This is an absolute falsehood. I have played D&D and other games off an on for better than 20 years, and I have not once come across a “recruiter”! Are there wiccans and new agers that play? Of course! But there also Baptists, Catholics, Non-demoninationals, Lutherans, etc. Give the scare tactics a rest. ANd besides, its waaaaaaaaaaaay off-topic.

 

[kinja]

Well I’ve researched a bit into what many modern, self-proclaimed pagans and Wiccans practice and I’ve noted the strong following differences.

1. Nothing’s really happening when they cast a “spell”. They don’t shoot fireballs, they don’t conjure blizzards. Heck they don’t even turn people into toads. Neither can I actually summon a dragon and make it do stuff like take me to school or fight against other monsters.
2. The creatures you mentioned don’t exist and there’s a huge difference between them what you’ve just insinuated. I’m familiar with the concept of summoning “dwarves” (or dwende as they are called here in my country) but these things are treated as spiritual entities. The universes of Tolkien and Azeroth (along with so many others) present these beings as actual, flesh-and-blood living creatures.
3. Magic in the mentioned universes also do not seem to have the same negative effects as they do in our universe. You don’t see mages in Warcraft getting possessed by demons or the spirits in Shaman King turning out to be demons in disguise. In our world though, that’s the type of stuff that exactly happens when people dabble in “magic”.

Can I see this documentary? I’m very skeptical of such things though I don’t want to jump to conclusions.

Notice I did not mention wicca or paganism (which is a vague and ambiguous term i’d rather not use). Witchcraft and wicca are different in that wicca is “white magic” some say good magic. Wicca is really just a G-rated form of Witchcraft (which is far more powerful in orders of magnitude) Look up Alester Crowley and his litarary works on magick and sex magick and ritual human sacrifice.

It’s interesting how you mentioned that the magical creatures eg. dwarves are summoned in magic as spiritual beings but dismiss their use in fantasy as being physical entities. Therefore I guess you would be OK with playing a game where the heroes which you play are satan and demons as long as they are portrayeda as physical beings?

C’mon lost you can’t be that naive.

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

Fantasy is nice but most people don’t realise that many of the characters in these “stories” are not made up but are actually channelled by some individuals in history through occultic practices with the help of familiar spirits.

Are you sure about that? If you haven’t read my signature, I’m an anime writer. Fantasy happens to be the genre I mostly write about. The only spirit I’ve ever channeled is the Spirit of Youth!!! runs to the sunset (Sorry, sometimes I can’t help making obscure anime references XD).

Anyways back on the issue. I don’t think you can really say that when writing is merely a process of using your imagination. When you create a character for example, you don’t decide which certain spirit has this or that type of personality. You decide everything yourself. What’s her hair color? What’s his archetype? Is she a tsundere or Miss Girl-Next-Door? Of course there are strong influences such as environment and, heck, it’s even common to base characters on people around you (more often yourself). But channeling? I’m sorry, but I advise you to actually try writing yourself. You might find that it’s nothing really religious/spiritual but merely an enjoyable art.

I really don’t mean to sound fundamentalist but we need to educate our young in particular that magic is not of God in any way shape or form. Christianity and Magic are diametrically opposed. Christianity=through God all things are possible, rely on God and His will. Magic and Witchcraft= through your own will, imagination and the craft all things are possible. You have infinite potential (you are god). Rely on yourself and use the forces of nature to effect YOUR will.

Ever been beaten by a boss? Totally pwned? Your whole party, literally, wiped across the floor?

Now imagine that… only an infinite times worse.

That’s what would happen should I ever be able to use magic and tried using it against God. That’s what makes God, God and me a powerful but otherwise mortal. I can only reach level 99. God’s level is censored due to level number being of extreme awesomeness

 

[CWBetts]

Take the fantasyliterature/gaming discussion to another thread. It is off topic

 

[BOMC]

The reference to Joel by the apostles was signifying THEIR day, or “the day of the Lord come” (Joel 2:1,31) which applied to Jesus’ FIRST coming.

Regarding the Holy Spirit, it has always been on earth.

Regarding revelation, that has no relevance to Catholics or anybody else in conjunction to the rapture. Try again.

 

[kinja]

This is an absolute falsehood. I have played D&D and other games off an on for better than 20 years, and I have not once come across a “recruiter”! Are there wiccans and new agers that play? Of course! But there also Baptists, Catholics, Non-demoninationals, Lutherans, etc. Give the scare tactics a rest. ANd besides, its waaaaaaaaaaaay off-topic.

20 years? How can you look at D&D objectively if you’ve been playing it for so long? Even much of the clergy of the catholic church warned catholics years ago about the spiritual dangers of playing D&D. Do your research and you’ll see it’s true. Liberal “catholicism” is alive and well I see.

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

I agree, the caution of deception may not be from something dark and mysterious, but rather something convincingly in the wrong direction.

According to the word of God, EVERYONE will know and be warned about the deceiver and will be cautioned not to align; it will just not be convenient to be a Christian anymore, and the hypocrites will be exposed.

Okay, you’ve lost me now. My point is, I will never believe in this “Rapture” nor will I believe anybody pointing to any “signs of the end” unless I can see hardcore, physical, undeniable evidence.

I want destruction. Mayhem. Material reality itself being twisted in front of my eyes. That’s the end of the world for you man. Not just the ambiguous connecting of random historical events to the book of Revelations.

 

[BOMC]

(Edited)

Okay, you’ve lost me now. My point is, I will never believe in this “Rapture” nor will I believe anybody pointing to any “signs of the end” unless I can see hardcore, physical, undeniable evidence.

I can see this is going nowhere.

How about this, is it accepted, as the scriptures imply, that our Lord will come “as a thief in the night?”

Let’s go from there.

 

[kinja]

Are you sure about that? If you haven’t read my signature, I’m an anime writer. Fantasy happens to be the genre I mostly write about. The only spirit I’ve ever channeled is the Spirit of Youth!!! runs to the sunset (Sorry, sometimes I can’t help making obscure anime references XD).

Anyways back on the issue. I don’t think you can really say that when writing is merely a process of using your imagination. When you create a character for example, you don’t decide which certain spirit has this or that type of personality. You decide everything yourself. What’s her hair color? What’s his archetype? Is she a tsundere or Miss Girl-Next-Door? Of course there are strong influences such as environment and, heck, it’s even common to base characters on people around you (more often yourself). But channeling? I’m sorry, but I advise you to actually try writing yourself. You might find that it’s nothing really religious/spiritual but merely an enjoyable art.

Ever been beaten by a boss? Totally pwned? Your whole party, literally, wiped across the floor?

Now imagine that… only an infinite times worse.

That’s what would happen should I ever be able to use magic and tried using it against God. That’s what makes God, God and me a powerful but otherwise mortal. I can only reach level 99. God’s level is censored due to level number being of extreme awesomeness

Two points:

1. Not all creative ideas are channelled in fantasy
2. Alot of the physical and “psychic” attributes of these fantasy creatures are not novel but borrowed from the ideas of other creative people and adapted or modified by the artist (such as yourself) I’m pretty sure that most of the characters you create have some resemblance to mythical creatures that have already been “thought up”.
3. Many people thoughout the years have practiced magic and done wicked and evil things with it and lived long lives in aparent contentment. God alone decides when He will judge and He has no problem giving people over to the wicked desires in their hearts as is the case with ancient peoples who turned their backs on Him. So you may not be immediately punished if you try to use magic against man or God.

 

[CWBetts]

two points:

1. not all creative ideas are channelled in fantasy
2. alot of the physical and “psychic” attributes of these fantasy creatures are not novel but borrowed from the ideas of other creative people and adapted or modified by the artist (such as yourself) i’m pretty sure that most of the characters you create have some resemblance to mythical creatures that have already been “thought up”.
3. many people thoughout the years have practiced magic and done wicked and evil things with it and lived long lives in aparent contentment. God alone decides when he will judge and he has no problem giving people over to the wicked desires in their hearts as is the case with ancient peoples who turned their backs on him. So you may not be immediately punished if you try to use magic against man or god.

start a different thread!! This is off topic!!!

 

[kinja]

Take the fantasyliterature/gaming discussion to another thread. It is off topic

Agreed. My apologies. I got carried away there

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

Notice I did not mention wicca or paganism (which is a vague and ambiguous term i’d rather not use). Witchcraft and wicca are different in that wicca is “white magic” some say good magic. Wicca is really just a G-rated form of Witchcraft (which is far more powerful in orders of magnitude) Look up Alester Crowley and his litarary works on magick and sex magick and ritual human sacrifice.

It’s interesting how you mentioned that the magical creatures eg. dwarves are summoned in magic as spiritual beings but dismiss their use in fantasy as being physical entities. Therefore I guess you would be OK with playing a game where the heroes which you play are satan and demons as long as they are portrayeda as physical beings?

C’mon lost you can’t be that naive.

You completely misunderstood my post and your logic is flawed. The difference between the “dwarves” in this world and dwarves in general fantasy is that the latter is always portrayed as a race of mortal beings just like humans. Not cuz their “physical”. They’re no different than you or me (inside that is).

And yes, I’ve heard of the madman Aleister Crowley. He’s practically the stereotype of a Satanist and he’s one of the biggest reasons why I see a huge difference between a fantasy RPG wizard and the lunatic occult ones we have in this world.

P.S.

I’d take CWBetts advice. Though since you’re the one who brought this up, I’ll leave it to you to start the thread.

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

I can see this is going nowhere.

How about this, is it accepted, as the scriptures imply, that our Lord will come “as a thief in the night?”

Let’s go from there.

That could mean anything as well as every other insane verse pertaining to this world’s end.

 

[omg]

Sorry I disagree read your Bible.

 

[omg]

Wherein lies the confidence of your salvation. That is the most crucial question.

Not to worrie I am a Catholic and I do believe in the Rapture again I say to Read your Bible.

 

[scottywolf777]

This is an absolute falsehood. I have played D&D and other games off an on for better than 20 years, and I have not once come across a “recruiter”! Are there wiccans and new agers that play? Of course! But there also Baptists, Catholics, Non-demoninationals, Lutherans, etc. Give the scare tactics a rest. ANd besides, its waaaaaaaaaaaay off-topic.

Hi guys, what is going on here? Is this thread about the rapture theory or D&D? Which I played in college. I guess next we’ll all be trashing Harry Potter instead of what this rapture theology is doing in many fundamentalist churches. As far as scare tactics are concerned, a friend of mine’s daughter got ahold of one of the Left Behind books and for 3 weeks was so scared that she couldn’t sleep with the ligthts off for fear that Jesus might return then and there. The first real problem ultimately with this theology is that it get’s one focused on the end of the world and not on what they should be doing here and now. Also as with all prophetic messages, Revelation (what the church is supposedly being raptured from) is given as a warning. A phrase shows up repeatedly ad nauseum “let him who has ears here.” Getting people all scared and hurding them into your group from other groups. Is GOD behind that? Or perhaps somebody who thinks they’re God or at least thinks they have a better idea than God, Would it be could it be,Saytannn!:yup:Historically this rapture theology seems to show up the same time as a bunch of end of the world theology appears often from groups telling you to wait it out in the desert something Jesus warns about (Matthew 24).
Even Luther in one of his moments of being right (pay attention there aren’t very many of them) when asked what he would do if he knew the end of the world was going to arrive tommorrow what he’d do, he replied, “Go plant my fruit trees.” Also what will it really matter about the rapture if you walk out your front door and are hit by a bus?

[SIGN]It’s the end of the world as we know it, and I feel fine-REM[/SIGN]