Issues with "the Rapture"

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Incidentally, I live in rapture central here.I can attend Pastor LaHaye’s church and listen to him speak if I was so inclined. After reading all these books of theirs I see no reason to want to. I have a friend who’s an avowed atheist who refers to the whole of rapture theology as a cash cow. It makes LaHaye and his buddy Jenkins a small fortune. In the mean time, it gets Christians of all denominations off topic when it comes to what Jesus preached. If I am convinced that Jesus is going to return next thursday then I probably won’t really care about fixing any social ills the world might have. I will only care about neighbor in order to get them on the roster and will tell the beggar at the door buck up it’s almost over anyway (at least as far as your concerned). There’s also an interesting phenomenon here that belief in the rapture requires attending churches that also believe in the rapture because they will be saved and nobody else will.So let’s all sit around and wait for Jesus to come in the clouds and not do anything.Meanwhile the world is going to hell in a handbasket and we’ll all go to the theatre for the next installment of Left Behind. While I agree Jesus is going to return and fix the world once and for all (at the end of time) I don’t really expect the parousia in the next 5 minutes. By the way, how many folks got hit by a bus leaving the theatre thereby missing the rapture? Be aware of the “signs of the times” but, not obsessed by them. By the way there’ s a catholic equivalent that comes up in the “vision and apparition hunters” who fly all over world to hear what the Blessed Mother is saying and don’t bother to ask and what does mother church tell them about all this. By the way in terms of the anti-Christ game, anybody’s name can equal 666 if you try hard enough. They both seem to have those “itching ears” that Paul talks about in II Timothy 4:1-5. Actually one thing that amused me about the movies was that God takes the people and leaves their clothes behind nice and neatly pressed no less and one rather sad scene with a dog standing by it’s master’s empty clothes that had been on a walk at the time. I guess God doesn’t really care about Fido or any of his other 4 legged creatures.😦

[SIGNIt’s the end of the world as we know it and I feel fine-REM][/SIGN]
 
Is it possible to believe in the rapture AND and care about the world?

From what I am hearing, most don’t think so…
 
BOMC said:
Is it possible to believe in the rapture AND and care about the world?

From what I am hearing, most don’t think so…
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Oh, that does highlight some early confusion I once had. I looked upon the martyr’s acceptance of death as, at best an abivilance, but quite often outright hatred toward life. When in reality, they were spitting in the face of death, and loved life more than anyone else.

St. Paul doesn’t speak too highly of the world though. Then again, I think it depends what you mean by “world”. The planet Earth? This physical existance as we know it?

I’m not sure how we came about it, but we’re supposed to love it, yes? It’s a creation of the Almighty, yes? Fairly difficult *not *to love.
 
Dtmccameron said:
St. Paul doesn’t speak too highly of the world though. Then again, I think it depends what you mean by “world”. The planet Earth? This physical existance as we know it?
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Pixie_Dust said:
Which rapture?
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The view is, Christ will return. Agreed? The armies of evil will resist, both through controlled worldly people and kingdoms and in the spirit sphere. It will be so bad that God in His great mercy will spare the believers who were faithfully waiting for our Lord to return by taking them up as the “first fruits unto Christ.”

Those who are caught up in the cares of this world, or mammon, must remain and experience the things John described in the Apocalypse.

Some feel that having this hope of our Lord returning and rapturing the faithful to their heavenly home is a distraction and should not be done. That those who do forget their responsibilities and act like a buffoon.

Thus, can one believe in the rapture and not become an ignoramus too?
 
BOMC said:
Is it possible to believe in the rapture AND and care about the world?

From what I am hearing, most don’t think so…
Click to expand...
Hmm… let’s think about this shall we? Considering that the stereotype of a typical Rapture fundamentalist is usually described as some fanatical religious conspiracy theorist, whose only intent is to find signs of the world’s end and labeling others as the Beast/anti-Christ/Whore of Babylon as well continuously condemn many things in the world (things that aren’t even necessarily evil I might add), that doesn’t sound like the type of person who has a lot of charity for anyone outside his narrow-minded way of life.

Now you might say that this is a strawman or whatever but my point is, this is a stereotype. They don’t always turn out to be completely true but it’s not like they’re completely false either.

Which leads back to my question to you.

How can you watch for Christ’s return without becoming a conspiracy theorist? Without the risk of crying wolf?
 
How can you be a disciple of Christ without being labeled a “religious fanatic?”
 
BOMC said:
How can you be a disciple of Christ without being labeled a “religious fanatic?”
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head-desks

Now who’s getting off topic? You are not answering my question… again. Maybe it’s you who should be sent a notice of infraction right now.
 
I still don’t think we’re talking to the same point. I’m going to list what I believe is the Catholic perspective, just the part of our eschatology relating to the Second Coming. If I’m in error, Catholics please correct me. Then, I invite BOMC and whoever else is participating to posit their position and see where we really disagree on this, because from what BOMC has posted, I don’t think his position is the same as what most of us argue against when we think of the Rapture.

Catholics, am I in error to say regarding our beliefs in the Second Coming:
  • The time will be unknown and is always assumed to be near
  • The event itself will be preceeded by a period of tribulation and great strife
  • The Lord’s return will be very visible and known to everyone and will surpass, in form, anything would could expect
  • The Lord will descend from Heaven and bring His Saints with Him (Parousia) taking the living saints as well in a grand victory entrance march (what Parousia means)
  • The Lord’s return ends the period of tribulation and begins the Judgement of the living and the dead, with those who died in living faith rising first and being rewarded, and those who died with wicked hearts being punished eternally
Catholics, is it fair to say that when we hear about the Rapture, we think of:
  • Jesus coming secretly to take away all His Saints and leave everyone else here to face the Tribulation alone
  • The time of Tribulation that follows
  • The Judgement will follow the Tribulation and be a separate event from the taking of Saints up into Heaven secretly.
Catholics, is it fair to say that our issues with such a Rapture DO NOT include:
  • That Jesus will return for His faithful (we expect and profess this)
  • That Jesus will judge the living and dead according to their living faithfully or wickedly
  • That this Judgement results in either Heaven or Hell
Catholics, is it fair to say that our issues with such a Rapture INCLUDE:
  • That Christians will be spared from the Tribulation (we do not believe this)
  • That Jesus’ return for the Saints will be a separate event from His Judgement, separated by a span of time
  • That Jesus’ return for the Saints will be secret and His return for the Judgment will be unmissable (we believe both occur one after the other and will both be unmissable)
Catholics, is it fair to say that our largest issue with such a Rapture stems from the idea that Christians will be spared the imminent tribulation and so should distance themselves from being involved in making the world better? This is something I saw around the Millenium with some of the local churches that held to a pre-Trib view. Some of them didn’t even bother to set up a budget for the following fiscal year, and they stopped participating in ecumenical events or even doing anything related to the future. On our college campus, students that belonged to these groups stopped attending social justice and discussion events because it was felt the world would be passing away shortly so why bother. This stands in stark contrast to the Catholic view that we are called to be intimately involved in working to further the Kingdom of God daily, no matter how soon the Second Coming may be.

I think many of us are also bothered deeply by the intensely individual take on theology that Rapture adherents seem to give. Bumper stickers that say “When the last trumpet blows, this vehicle will be unmanned” give the wrong message, we think. Perhaps individual Catholics (myself included) err on the side of awe towards the Lord, but we recognize and are called to a need to personal relationship with Christ that balances with a worshipful reverence. Hence we see that a Rapture theology in which a person feels separated from the world because they personally will be saved and separated by Jesus as being too believer-focused and not enough Christ-focused. Perhaps that’s the wrong impression, but that’s an impression that we receive from such a message.

Okay, I’m done for now. Please correct where I am incorrect or affirm where I have spoken correctly. BOMC, your turn.
 
Good reply!
losh14 said:
Catholics, am I in error to say regarding our beliefs in the Second Coming:
  • The Lord’s return ends the period of tribulation and begins the Judgement of the living and the dead, with those who died in living faith rising first and being rewarded, and those who died with wicked hearts being punished eternally
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Two things:


  1. *]You left out the resurrection.
    *]Aren’t the plagues spoken of in the Apocalypse God’s judgments?
    *]God punishes the wicked so He must have already determined, i.e. judged who the receivers of His wrath will be.

    You’re confusing the final judgment with when the Lord appears:
    7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
    12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
    13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. (Revelation 20)
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    Final judgment is at the end of the millennium.
    losh14 said:
    Catholics, is it fair to say that when we hear about the Rapture, we think of:
    • Jesus coming secretly to take away all His Saints and leave everyone else here to face the Tribulation alone
    • The time of Tribulation that follows
    • The Judgement will follow the Tribulation and be a separate event from the taking of Saints up into Heaven secretly.
    Click to expand...
    The word “secret” has been used by a variety of authors and I agree is distracting. A better word perhaps would be “sudden.”

    The apocalypse is about the judgments of God. God does not punish the righteous, therefore, the righteous (faithfully watching) will be spared. The unfaithful, unwatchful, unwise will be left, according to the parables of Jesus.
    losh14 said:
    Catholics, is it fair to say that our issues with such a Rapture DO NOT include:
    • That this Judgement results in either Heaven or Hell
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    That determination happens every time someone dies. The final judgment is not until after the millennium.
    losh14 said:
    Catholics, is it fair to say that our issues with such a Rapture INCLUDE:
    • That Christians will be spared from the Tribulation (we do not believe this)
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    Does God punish the wicked?

    Does He spare the righteous?

    If yes, why not now?

    There are many verses that say He will spare the righteous.
    losh14 said:
    • That Jesus’ return for the Saints will be a separate event from His Judgement, separated by a span of time
    Click to expand...
    Again, that judgment is after his millennial reign.
    losh14 said:
    Catholics, is it fair to say that our largest issue with such a Rapture stems from the idea that Christians will be spared the imminent tribulation and so should distance themselves from being involved in making the world better?
    Click to expand...
    I am sorry that those Christians stigmatized the rapture for everyone else.
 
BOMC said:
The view is, Christ will return. Agreed? The armies of evil will resist, both through controlled worldly people and kingdoms and in the spirit sphere. It will be so bad that God in His great mercy will spare the believers who were faithfully waiting for our Lord to return by taking them up as the “first fruits unto Christ.”

Those who are caught up in the cares of this world, or mammon, must remain and experience the things John described in the Apocalypse.

Some feel that having this hope of our Lord returning and rapturing the faithful to their heavenly home is a distraction and should not be done. That those who do forget their responsibilities and act like a buffoon.

Thus, can one believe in the rapture and not become an ignoramus too?
Click to expand...
So, your version of “the rapture” is the Second Coming of Christ? See, I asked which rapture because of the plethora of theories floating around Christendom. I wasn’t sure to which one you, personally, adhere.
 
BOMC said:
Good reply!

Two things:


  1. *]You left out the resurrection.
    *]Aren’t the plagues spoken of in the Apocalypse God’s judgments?
    *]God punishes the wicked so He must have already determined, i.e. judged who the receivers of His wrath will be.
Click to expand...

  1. I’m sorry my friend, but this just really made me laugh. Two things? That’s three! 😃
    No offense intended or anything.
 
Pixie_Dust said:
So, your version of “the rapture” is the Second Coming of Christ? See, I asked which rapture because of the plethora of theories floating around Christendom. I wasn’t sure to which one you, personally, adhere.
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Right. The dynamics of which are not understood by all.
 
BOMC said:
Right. The dynamics of which are not understood by all.
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What makes you so confident that your interpretation is the correct one? That you completely understand the dynamics and others do not?

Are you pre-, mid-, or post-trib? 😉
 
Holly3278 said:
I strongly recommend that our Protestant brethren and those who are unfamiliar with the Protestant teaching on “the rapture” to read this article from Catholic Answers:

catholic.com/library/Rapture.asp

Also, here is another good article on “the rapture”:

davidmacd.com/catholic/raptured_catholics.htm
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Thank you for the links!

I take exception to the conclusions of David McDonald however. Left me know if his assessment and conclusions are believed by most RC’s. Then I will point those out.

Thanks.
 
BOMC said:
There is a principle, God punishes the wicked and spares the righteous.
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Delivers them from what though? Hell? For sure. Pain, torture and death? He let His own Son be murdered, it seems foolish to me that the servants should any fate different from that of their Master.

Further, does it not rain upon the just and the unjust alike?

And who can say they have lived a truly righteous life? Is not, “No one good but God?”
 
BOMC said:
There is a principle, God punishes the wicked and spares the righteous.
Click to expand...
I wouldn’t say “spares” the righteous. I’d say He brings us through tribulations and will ultimately deliver us.
 
BOMC said:
Thank you for the links!

I take exception to the conclusions of David McDonald however. Left me know if his assessment and conclusions are believed by most RC’s. Then I will point those out.

Thanks.
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This link will explain to everyone from where BOMC is coming:

bomchristian.com/c/

Talk about oxymoronic! or is there a deception here!
 
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