Issues with "the Rapture"

[ryanoneil]

The rapture’s earliest beginnings were in the third century by a 3rd century Cathollic known as Ephraem the Syrian. The OT even refers to the taking out of God’s people. The Tribulation period is God’s wrath. The church is the bride. Why would Christ subject his bride to wrath? If you can answer that I will stop considering the instant rapture a probability. Please explain why the church itself has gone against its own original teaching.

The initial fulfillment of the tribulation occurred during the Jewish-Roman war and the destruction of Jerusalem. Many of God’s people were killed, but the Christians who “stayed awake” recognized the warning signs and fled.

"When you see the desolating abomination spoken of through Daniel the prophet standing in the holy place (let the reader understand), then those in Judea must flee to the mountains, a person on the housetop must not go down to get things out of his house, a person in the field must not return to get his cloak. Woe to pregnant women and nursing mothers in those days. Pray that your flight not be in winter or on the sabbath, for at that time there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will be. And if those days had not been shortened, no one would be saved; but for the sake of the elect they will be shortened. (Mt 24:15-22)

This isn’t language of being transported off the earth. Jesus instructs the church to flee. And after the tribulation the elect are gathered.

"Immediately after the tribulation of those days, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming upon the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he will send out his angels with a trumpet blast, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other. (Mt 24:29-31)

 

[ellammcg]

Actually, it was “Pseudo-Ephraem” - someone was using his name to give his letter apostolic authority.

A few of the ECFs wrote about a literal 1000 year reign of Christ on earth. However, this kingdom wasn’t accompanied by a rapture of believers, it occurred before the last day. This position was never adopted as an official teaching of the Church as a whole. A literal 1000 year reign of Christ on earth had mostly been rejected by the end of the 4th century.

There is one obscure writing by someone whose pen name was Pseudo-Ephraem; which has a passage that seems to refer to a pre-Trib rapture, dating approximately from 4th-5th century, and the author’s real name is unknown. Rapture enthusiasts will point to this ONE passage and say, “See! The Early Church believed in a Pre-Trib Rapture!”

The problem is: The exact meaning of the passage is open to dispute since 1) there is no mention of Christ coming in Glory, 2) St Ephraim, upon whose writings Pseudo-Ephraem is supposedly based, did NOT believe in a pre-Trib rapture; and 3) if you take ONE obscure passage from the 4th or 5th century to prove an Early Christian belief in the Rapture, then why don’t you believe ALL the Early Church Fathers who wrote about:

* the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist?
* the authority of the Bishop of Rome?
* baptism as the real washing away of sin?

One obscure ECF passage does not Church Teaching make. Please read this:

The Rapture and the Bible

A pro-pre-trib site has a copy of that sermon:
according2prophecy.org/lastimes.html

That sermon also mentions the need for penance (right after the sentance that says the supposed proof of the pre-trib-rapture part) "Commotions are brought forth, wars of diverse peoples and battles and incursions of the barbarians threaten, and our regions shall be desolated, and we neither become very much afraid of the report nor of the appearance, in order that we may at least do penance; because they hurl fear at us, and we do not wish to be changed, although we at least stand in need of penance for our actions! "
and that “It is necessary that the world come to an end at the completion of the Roman empire.” (Obviously it did not.) Also, “Whenever the days of the times of those nations have been fulfilled, after they have destroyed the earth, it shall rest; and now the kingdom of the Romans is removed from everyday life, and the empire of the Christians is handed down by God and Peter.”

There are more than a few beliefs in that sermon that evangelicals are strongly opposed to and yet that sermon is used repetitively to justify ECF belief in a pre-trib rapture.

(BTW, I think Pixie Dust’s point #3 is an especially valid one.)

 

[SHW]

The rapture’s earliest beginnings were in the third century by a 3rd century Cathollic known as Ephraem the Syrian. The OT even refers to the taking out of God’s people. The Tribulation period is God’s wrath. The church is the bride. Why would Christ subject his bride to wrath? If you can answer that I will stop considering the instant rapture a probability. Please explain why the church itself has gone against its own original teaching.

Hello a burger,

I do not think that this time period should be called a “wrath.” It is rightfully called in Scripture a “tribulation.” This tribulation is the final battle between good and evil. The Jews become Christians after they hear the testimony of the two witnesses sent to them by God during this time period. After this battle which Jesus wins, the devil, Antichrist, and the prophet are thrown into hell for all eternity.

Acts 14:21-23 “And when they had preached the gospel to that city and made many disciples, they returned to Lystra, Iconium, and Antioch, 22 strengthening the souls of the disciples, exhorting them to continue in the faith, and saying, “We must through many tribulations enter the kingdom of God.” 23 So when they had appointed elders in every church, and prayed with fasting, they commended them to the Lord in whom they had believed.”

Romans 5:3-5 “And not only that, but we also glory in tribulations, knowing that tribulation produces perseverance; 4 and perseverance, character; and character, hope. 5 Now hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out in our hearts by the Holy Spirit who was given to us.”

1 Thessalonians 3:4 “For, in fact, we told you before when we were with you that we would suffer tribulation, just as it happened, and you know.”

Revelation 2:10 “Do not fear any of those things which you are about to suffer. Indeed, the devil is about to throw some of you into prison, that you may be tested, and you will have tribulation ten days. Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life.”

Pax,
SHW

 

[a_burger]

Actually, it was “Pseudo-Ephraem” - someone was using his name to give his letter apostolic authority.

A few of the ECFs wrote about a literal 1000 year reign of Christ on earth. However, this kingdom wasn’t accompanied by a rapture of believers, it occurred before the last day. This position was never adopted as an official teaching of the Church as a whole. A literal 1000 year reign of Christ on earth had mostly been rejected by the end of the 4th century.

Teaching on the Rapture first appeared in the late 18th and early 19th centuries. It gained popularity by the efforts of John Darby. He preached the Rapture in England, the US and Canada between 1850-1870 to people of thousands of different Protestant denominations, so most of the current teaching on the Rapture can be traced back to only about 150 years ago. There is one obscure writing by someone whose pen name was Pseudo-Ephraem; which has a passage that seems to refer to a pre-Trib rapture, dating approximately from 4th-5th century, and the author’s real name is unknown. Rapture enthusiasts will point to this ONE passage and say, “See! The Early Church believed in a Pre-Trib Rapture!”

The problem is: The exact meaning of the passage is open to dispute since 1) there is no mention of Christ coming in Glory, 2) St Ephraim, upon whose writings Pseudo-Ephraem is supposedly based, did NOT believe in a pre-Trib rapture; and 3) if you take ONE obscure passage from the 4th or 5th century to prove an Early Christian belief in the Rapture, then why don’t you believe ALL the Early Church Fathers who wrote about:

* the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist?
* the authority of the Bishop of Rome?
* baptism as the real washing away of sin?

One obscure ECF passage does not Church Teaching make. Please read this:

The Rapture and the Bible

 

[a_burger]

a_burger:
The Jews always accused the Christians of adding Isaiah 51 to the bible. When the Dead Sea Scrolls were discovered it proved Isaiah 51 was in the Bible before the Incarnation.

A text was discovered wriiten by the most famous historian of his time Favius Josepius. This famous historian reported that Jesus rose from the dead. He was not a believer. Now they said Chritians fabricated it.

Ephraem the Syrian wrote that the Lord would rescue us from confusion. This is directly translated. Now here you come saying it wasn’t true because you don’t like what it says. How are you different from the other skepticsabove? I would prefer to die a martyr myself. That is if I have the courage. I remember what happened to Peter. We as Christians shouldn’t be running around like the heathens saying it is false because you don’t like it.

Long be remembered my Grandpa Calvert who brough the Catholic relitgion 18 generations ago.

 

[a_burger]

Hello a burger,

I do not think that this time period should be called a “wrath.” It is rightfully called in Scripture a “tribulation.” This tribulation is the final battle between good and evil. The Jews become Christians after they hear the testimony of the two witnesses sent to them by God during this time period. After this battle which Jesus wins, the devil, Antichrist, and the prophet are thrown into hell for all eternity.

Acts 14:21-23 “And when they had preached the gospel to that city and made many disciples, they returned to Lystra, Iconium, and Antioch, 22 strengthening the souls of the disciples, exhorting them to continue in the faith, and saying, “We must through many tribulations enter the kingdom of God.” 23 So when they had appointed elders in every church, and prayed with fasting, they commended them to the Lord in whom they had believed.”

Romans 5:3-5 “And not only that, but we also glory in tribulations, knowing that tribulation produces perseverance; 4 and perseverance, character; and character, hope. 5 Now hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out in our hearts by the Holy Spirit who was given to us.”

1 Thessalonians 3:4 “For, in fact, we told you before when we were with you that we would suffer tribulation, just as it happened, and you know.”

Revelation 2:10 “Do not fear any of those things which you are about to suffer. Indeed, the devil is about to throw some of you into prison, that you may be tested, and you will have tribulation ten days. Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life.”

Pax,
SHW

 

[a_burger]

a_burger:
Again and again our adversaries say someone didn’t write something id they don’t like it. Many of our adversaies and even a Bishop wrote there were no killings at Auschwitz. Many of our adversaries say the Shroud of Turin isn’t the burial cloth of Christ, even now when nine leadings scientists say it is authentic, it is about 2000 years old, and there is now technology today that can explain it. Now a manuscript comes translated from Ephraem the Syrian and immediately, just like our adversaries, we say he really didn’t write it. This was the opinion of one man. It doesn’t mean Ephraem was right or wrong. If you critics find the time to read it it will show you we will be rescued from confusion not wrath. I recently saw confusion in a class I took called Just Matters Just Faith. They indoctrinate unsuspecting fellow Catholics that man is respnsible for the weather. People would actually believe Al Gore before they would believe 31,000 scientists and doctors that signed a petition tha it didn’t. You can find this at www.oism.org.

Personally I don’t know if there will be a rapture but we should pray that us true believers would have a provision. Did you know that a house full of Jesuit priests lived 8 blocks from ground zero at Hiroshsima and were never hurt. They prayed the rosary everyday. Maybe we should have a goal of having many pray the rosary for the coming confusion and wrath of God. If you have a chance Google Yves Dupont and read was he says about Tribulation. He is a leading Catholic prophecy expert.

Jesus said ‘Let no man deceive you.’ That sounds like an order not a suggestion. If you want to tell me that Ephraem didn’t write this then give me your reasons. Let’s have an intelligent dialogue based on facts not emotions.

Incidentally all Jewish believers believe in the rapture tha tI have read. They are getting their informaiton from the OT. Whether you believe in the rapture or not will never affect your salvation.

 

[a_burger]

a_burger:
I would like to thank PixieDust for making my point. You say nobody discussed the rapture until someone named Darby in the 18 th century. I write about Ephraem discussing the removal of the bride by Christ. I mean, com on, who else would have the power to remove that many people but the one(plural) God. Explain to me how someone else wrote this which happened to be in the 6th Century. Yes, I do know about the other opinion. They could be correct. Yet, please sit down and think what you just said. You said no one wrote about the rapture until the 18th century and then you tell me it was someone else’s theory written in the 6th century. What you did was actually agree with the rapture theory starting in the 6th century. If you’re going to argue against a point you shouldn’t give evidence to support it.

Here is what we should agree on. God (plural) might not have decided whether or not he will take us out. You, yourself, said tribulation is different from wrath. Tribulation is the wrath of God BUT it is still wrath. Depending on the rapture and depending on it could be a serious problem. If you read and actually think about Thessolonians you will see that the people worried about being ‘Left Behind.’ The people stopped working awating for the rapture. The Apostle Paul told them if you don’t work you don’t eat. Doesn’t that sound familiar?

Talking about “Left Behind” there is a tremendous error. I agree there will be an Antichrist but the Antichrist will be from the Secludian (Iran, Iraq, Syria area) kingdom. This comes right from the Bible. Google Yves Dupont a Catholic prophecy expert. He explains that there will be a bad person in Europe. This person will not be the Antichrist. The Antichrist will initially get his power from world leaders and not initially approach the general populace. The Antichrist will kill the ‘New Nero’ from Europe. Both will hate Christians and persecute us. It is said they will both not merely kill Christians (apostolic Christians only since the social Christians will follow the Antichrist) but will take great pleasure in torturing us.

You might not believe in the rapture but I can guarantee you that you will be praying for it when the chastisement starts. You might want to read what St. Theresa Newman, the stagmatist, said. The Lord has been happy with America’s charity and therefore during the chastisement we will not be put in prisons but we will be brought to our knees with the elements. Look at our own Catholic Church where Just Matters Just Faith climate change classes. When you’re in the class they blame America for everyting. It’s like a hate America class. In fairness I don’t think the bishops who approved this have no idea what they are indoctrinating. Human conduct doesn’t cause climate change. Gorbachev said Jesus was the first socialist.

I apologize for my prior typos on the prior article I wrote. I would like to challenge any of you critics with the following queston. Why won’t anyone know the day or the hour of the coming of Christ except the Father?

 

[scottywolf777]

Re: the jews and Isaiah “51”
Your reference is to Isaiah 53 the passage about the suffering messiah. Non-messianic jews do NOT believe that Christians added it to the Bible. It is in the Septuagint, translated into greek by Jews it is in the Hebrew Old Testament. It is often shrouded and rarely mentioned because it speaks a little too discomfortingly about Jesus or Yeshua as he is known in Hebrew. Modern non-messianic jews find the subject of Jesus distasteful generally. OK?
In re: upset ex altar boy
I was one too and was cute at that age as well & never worried about being molested nor feel upset that I wasn’t. It’s only a ** VERY SMALLMINORITY**of priests that are pedophiles.
And finally to the Catholic gentleman quoting all this protestant evangelical interpretation of the end of the world yet claiming 31 generations of catholicism. Please get some catholic reading matterial and go to some more catholic understanding websites before you are the last of those 31 generations because you lose the catholic faith entirely!
I thought this thread had finally died since i no longer recieved any notifications about it but, it had fallen into the spam file. It’s amazing where some of these things will go when you’re gone!
Those interested can connect the dots!

 

[a_burger]

Re: the jews and Isaiah “51”
Your reference is to Isaiah 53 the passage about the suffering messiah. Non-messianic jews do NOT believe that Christians added it to the Bible. It is in the Septuagint, translated into greek by Jews it is in the Hebrew Old Testament. It is often shrouded and rarely mentioned because it speaks a little too discomfortingly about Jesus or Yeshua as he is known in Hebrew. Modern non-messianic jews find the subject of Jesus distasteful generally. OK?
In re: upset ex altar boy
I was one too and was cute at that age as well & never worried about being molested nor feel upset that I wasn’t. It’s only a ** VERY SMALLMINORITY**of priests that are pedophiles.
And finally to the Catholic gentleman quoting all this protestant evangelical interpretation of the end of the world yet claiming 31 generations of catholicism. Please get some catholic reading matterial and go to some more catholic understanding websites before you are the last of those 31 generations because you lose the catholic faith entirely!
I thought this thread had finally died since i no longer recieved any notifications about it but, it had fallen into the spam file. It’s amazing where some of these things will go when you’re gone!
Those interested can connect the dots!

 

[a_burger]

a_burger:
It seems some of you really get riled when someone menntions the rapture. When are you going to get riled because of the the progressives infiltrating the church?. This is a salvation issue. Let me ask you a question. When is the last time you presented the Gospel to a non believer? When is the last time you tried to explain to a former Catholic why they should come back to the church?

 

[SHW]

It seems some of you really get riled when someone menntions the rapture. When are you going to get riled because of the the progressives infiltrating the church?. This is a salvation issue. Let me ask you a question. When is the last time you presented the Gospel to a non believer? When is the last time you tried to explain to a former Catholic why they should come back to the church?

I don’t get riled when someone mentions the rapture. I try to explain it to them and it happens at Jesus’ Second Coming and not before. It is after the tribulation and after the Antichrist and false prophet and Satan have been cast into hell. We meet Jesus in the air at His Second Coming. Shortly after our being “caught up/raptured” is the Judgment.

Never has God taken out the good people and left only the bad on earth. Noah, the just man was left on earth while God killed the evil men. Lot the just man was left on earth while God burned Sodom and Gomorrah. Jerusalem was destroyed and almost all of the Jews in 70 A.D., yet the Christians fled to the hills and not one perished because they were warned ahead of time what to look for so that they could flee in time.

Ephraem said "“For all the saints and Elect of God are gathered, prior to the tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins.”

He is free to say anything he wishes since the Church did not make an official ruling in his time. However, just because this is what he thought does not make it factual. If you take heed of all of the Scriptural references pertaining to the Second Coming, it is easy to figure out that the Church is not taken out before the Great Tribulation. This is the final battle between evil and good. This is not different than the early Christians suffering persecution and death in the lion’s dens, etc. It may bring people comfort to continue to believe in a pre-tribulation rapture, but it does not prepare them for actually having to live through it. I think it best that all Christians be prepared to live through it.

How many raped and or murdered nuns believed that God would protect them from rape/murder and yet they were raped and murdered. If we cling to God, He will save our souls but He does not promise to protect our bodies on earth.

There will always be true stories of persons who have been protected by God during atomic bombs, etc., but the majority still die. This does not mean that all of those who died did not measure up to God’s standards; it means that is was God’s plan for them to be martyrs.

Revelation 6:9-11 “When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held. 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” 11 Then a white robe was given to each of them; and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed.”

Pax,
SHW

 

[a_burger]

I don’t get riled when someone mentions the rapture. I try to explain it to them and it happens at Jesus’ Second Coming and not before. It is after the tribulation and after the Antichrist and false prophet and Satan have been cast into hell. We meet Jesus in the air at His Second Coming. Shortly after our being “caught up/raptured” is the Judgment.

Never has God taken out the good people and left only the bad on earth. Noah, the just man was left on earth while God killed the evil men. Lot the just man was left on earth while God burned Sodom and Gomorrah. Jerusalem was destroyed and almost all of the Jews in 70 A.D., yet the Christians fled to the hills and not one perished because they were warned ahead of time what to look for so that they could flee in time.

Ephraem said "“For all the saints and Elect of God are gathered, prior to the tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins.”

He is free to say anything he wishes since the Church did not make an official ruling in his time. However, just because this is what he thought does not make it factual. If you take heed of all of the Scriptural references pertaining to the Second Coming, it is easy to figure out that the Church is not taken out before the Great Tribulation. This is the final battle between evil and good. This is not different than the early Christians suffering persecution and death in the lion’s dens, etc. It may bring people comfort to continue to believe in a pre-tribulation rapture, but it does not prepare them for actually having to live through it. I think it best that all Christians be prepared to live through it.

How many raped and or murdered nuns believed that God would protect them from rape/murder and yet they were raped and murdered. If we cling to God, He will save our souls but He does not promise to protect our bodies on earth.

There will always be true stories of persons who have been protected by God during atomic bombs, etc., but the majority still die. This does not mean that all of those who died did not measure up to God’s standards; it means that is was God’s plan for them to be martyrs.

Revelation 6:9-11 “When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held. 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” 11 Then a white robe was given to each of them; and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed.”

Pax,
SHW

 

[a_burger]

a_burger:
You’re telling me no one was ever raptured. Have you ever actually read the Bible? Try reading about Enoch and Elijah. They were removed from the earth with their human body. CATHOLIC prophecy expert tells us Yves Dupont says they return to earth during tribulation.

Also try reading what I wrote and then reply. You either have a reading comprehension problem or didn’t read exactly what I wrote. I never said the rapture would happen. I said it was discussed before the 18th century. This is said by PROTESTANT lawyer Pat Robertson.

Also my challenge was when was the last time you told someone about Jesus. I didn’t see that in your reply. That has to do with salvation. The purpose of the church is to spread the Gospel. When was the last time you prayed for someone’s salvation? Are you going to wait for a Muslim or Mormon to tell them.

Actually I just explained to someone last week who attended the Catholic church and left. I told them it was Biblical that the Eucharist is actually the body of Christ and just not symbolic. What have you done personally?

 

[Orthodox1047]

For those of you who are interested, Father Arminjon wrote “The End of the World”, which was published in 1881. St. Therese of Lisieux read this work and was mightily impressed by it. I started to read it this weekend and it answers a lot of the questions that have been posted on this thread. I also recommend “The Rapture Trap” by Thigpen who pulls no punches.

 

[CWBetts]

You’re telling me no one was ever raptured. Have you ever actually read the Bible? Try reading about Enoch and Elijah. They were removed from the earth with their human body. CATHOLIC prophecy expert tells us Yves Dupont says they return to earth during tribulation.

Also try reading what I wrote and then reply. You either have a reading comprehension problem or didn’t read exactly what I wrote. I never said the rapture would happen. I said it was discussed before the 18th century. This is said by PROTESTANT lawyer Pat Robertson.

Also my challenge was when was the last time you told someone about Jesus. I didn’t see that in your reply. That has to do with salvation. The purpose of the church is to spread the Gospel. When was the last time you prayed for someone’s salvation? Are you going to wait for a Muslim or Mormon to tell them.

Actually I just explained to someone last week who attended the Catholic church and left. I told them it was Biblical that the Eucharist is actually the body of Christ and just not symbolic. What have you done personally?

Why are you attacking those that recognize the Rapture as described in the “Left Behind” series as bunk?

 

[SHW]

You’re telling me no one was ever raptured. Have you ever actually read the Bible? Try reading about Enoch and Elijah. They were removed from the earth with their human body. CATHOLIC prophecy expert tells us Yves Dupont says they return to earth during tribulation.

Also try reading what I wrote and then reply. You either have a reading comprehension problem or didn’t read exactly what I wrote. I never said the rapture would happen. I said it was discussed before the 18th century. This is said by PROTESTANT lawyer Pat Robertson.

Also my challenge was when was the last time you told someone about Jesus. I didn’t see that in your reply. That has to do with salvation. The purpose of the church is to spread the Gospel. When was the last time you prayed for someone’s salvation? Are you going to wait for a Muslim or Mormon to tell them.

Actually I just explained to someone last week who attended the Catholic church and left. I told them it was Biblical that the Eucharist is actually the body of Christ and just not symbolic. What have you done personally?

Yes, I have read the Bible through several times.

I never thought of Enoch and Elijah as being “raptured.” But, if you want to say that they were, it does not bother me. Mystics claim that they are living in a place near the Garden of Eden (a Paradise-like place) and that they will return to witness to the Jews during the Tribulation in the time of Antichrist. I believe them. I hadn’t thought of them as being “raptured” because they are not actually in the heaven of the blessed while they patiently wait to finish their jobs (God’s will) on earth and be killed because of their obedience to God’s will. After their deaths at the hands of Antichrist, then they will join the other saints in heaven for eternity.

I have Yve’s book (plus others) and have read them several times. Yes, I noticed that you stated that the rapture was taught before the 18th century. I have no problem with this fact. It does not necessarily make it true just because it was taught before the 18th century. That was my point. I was not singling you out personally when I made my reply. I agreed with you that it was taught before the 18th century. I have known of Pat Robertson and his beliefs for about 30 years now.

I speak or write to people about Jesus on an almost daily basis. I prefer God to be my judge and not persons on a forum and I will extend that same courtesy to you. My reading comprehension skills are usually up to par.

As long as we each personally are ready to die at any moment (which is what Scripture warns), then we have nothing to worry about. God is concerned about the state of our souls at the time of our deaths. This is what matters because it determines where we will dwell for eternity: heaven or hell. (1 Thessalonians 5:2) The day that we die is our own personal “day of the Lord.”

The rapture (caught up) in the Bible is at Jesus’ Second Coming only. It is easily shown by Scripture that it happens after the Tribulation of Antichrist. I prefer the Catholic understanding of the rapture rather than the Protestant misunderstanding.

Pax,
SHW

 

[a_burger]

Why are you attacking those that recognize the Rapture as described in the “Left Behind” series as bunk?

It isn’t the rapture I have the problem with. It’s the assumption that the Antichrist comes from Europe. It is very clear that the Antichrist comes from the Iran and Iraq area. Yves Dupont desribes two evil people at the end of the age. The one ‘Left Behind’ is alluding to is the one Dupont describes as the new Nero. People will probably think he is the Antichrist.The Antichrist kills the new Nero. Will it happen that way? I don’t know. I’ve learned one thing about prophecy. Don’t ever predict how it will happen. It always happens a different way. I can’t say whether or not the rapture will happen. I can say, however, 'Left Behind" is wrong aobut the Antichrist.Just think of the poosibility of the Antichrist killing the one we think is the Antichrist. Then he will be called the ‘Holy One.’

 

[ryanoneil]

OR

The new Nero could be so incompetant that the new Rome is in total disarray, and he commits suicide. Civil war breaks out and the new Vespasian pulls things together enought so that “the mortal wound is healed”.

 

[juliamajor]

You’re telling me no one was ever raptured. Have you ever actually read the Bible? Try reading about Enoch and Elijah. They were removed from the earth with their human body. CATHOLIC prophecy expert tells us Yves Dupont says they return to earth during tribulation.

Also try reading what I wrote and then reply. You either have a reading comprehension problem or didn’t read exactly what I wrote. I never said the rapture would happen. I said it was discussed before the 18th century. This is said by PROTESTANT lawyer Pat Robertson.

Also my challenge was when was the last time you told someone about Jesus. I didn’t see that in your reply. That has to do with salvation. The purpose of the church is to spread the Gospel. When was the last time you prayed for someone’s salvation? Are you going to wait for a Muslim or Mormon to tell them.

Actually I just explained to someone last week who attended the Catholic church and left. I told them it was Biblical that the Eucharist is actually the body of Christ and just not symbolic. What have you done personally?

Rapture might have mentioned-discussed but wasn’t mainlined -it never was really big until Darby came into the picture in the 1800’s.I believed it took place during the “Great awakening” when a lot of sects and evangelical beliefs were born.Darby was one of many popular ideas but his started to take off with his theory of various dispensations .After that it spread until became doctrine for many Evangelicals and Fundamentalists.
What people have done is really make a mess out of a very interesting part of the Bible.Because of it’s strange and varied colorful imagery the need for people to understand it has given rise to all kinds of nonsense.Wisely the CC has not said a heck of a lot on Revelation. Apocalyptic material is notoriously difficult to understand and really easy to read into- creating problems.the Left Behind series is just a pile of dung whose stink has wafted into the Catholic church - it has no basis in our theology. the Darbyesque point of view- but really has little to do with the CC view of the eschaton. If you read Left Behind as a good story(how ? I don’t know. the writing is atrocious)your ok. anything else is really really wrong but unfortunately has made headway into our Church via TBN and the televangelists. I had a heck of a hard time teaching the Catholic view of Revelation so entrenched is Darby’s dung.
Suggest reading a book about apocalyptic literature in general to get a real perspective of what it is and how it’s symbolism works.
Try Apocalyptic :ancient and Modern
By D.S. Russell.
it’s cheap and easy to read and not long (like Currie’s Book!)