"It is finished"?

[Skip_Wiley]

Uh, that’s why he asked, so he can learn and therefore know. Instead of making it up.

Unfortunately, we don’t know that that’s why he asked because he wouldn’t answer the question.

Defeat the Christians? Isn’t he Catholic?

Yes, which is why he must defeat the Christians.

Why not find out what it means from someone who has some claim to the copy right of the Good Book?

Which is none of the people here.

 

[Isa_Almisry]

Then what your Baptist friends believe is that either:

1.) The Resurrection does not matter, as Christ uttered those words PRIOR to the Resurrection.

or:

2.) Christ was not referring to the completion of our Salvation (which depends on the Resurrection), but to something else.

Ask them which one they believe.

I’m glad I decided to go throught the thread before posting my first thought. I was thinking the same things.

btw, “The Orthodox Study Bible: Ancient Christianity Speaks to Today’s World” states that “Finished is better translated “accomplished” or “fulfilled”-not meaning Christ’s life is ended, but showing that HIs divine plan of salvation has now been completed. St John Chrysostom writes that Christ did not die first, with His head falling as a result of his death. Instead, as Lord even of His own death, Jesus first bowed His head, and then willingly gave up His spirit.” “Jesus does not have HIs life teaken from Him, but will volutarily commit it to the Father. His awa the first human soul not to be taken into Hades: instead, it was freely given into the hands of God. Thus Christ frees all of humanity from death’s grip. His death reconciles mankind to God, not by satisfying the Father’s need for blood-justice as some might teach, but by causing every aspect of our corrupt human nature to be transformed, for whatever divinity touches is healed. Christ accepts human nature in order to sanctify human nature; He accepts our weakness in order to make us strong; He takes on our sin in order to free us from sin; He suffers in order to transfigure suffering; and He enters death in order to destroy it (I Cor. 15;20-28). Christ’s death was voluntary to the very end, for even on the Cross, His life could not be taken from Him against His will. Christ accepts death on the Cross neither to receive the Father’s punishment on our behalf, nor to satisfy the Father’s need for blood-justice (as if God would demand such things), but so that by entering death as the divine Son of God, He can destroy this last enemy, which is death itself.”
Christ has trambled down death by death. It is accomplished.

The Baptists I believe are offering their interpretation as to counter the idea of sacrifice of the mass, “works righteousness” etc., to which I’d quote St. Ignatius, who knew the Apostles and was ordained to succeed St. Peter at Antioch, where the believers were first called Christians (Acts 11:26) by St. Peter himself: refering to the heretics he says “and they will not attend the bishop’s liturgies. Why? Because they refuse to admit that the Eucharist is the Self Same Body which hung on the Cross for our salvation.”

I remember seeing a monk on EWTN saying something profound. The Eucharist is worth more than all our works, because it is the work of God. As the deacon says at the beginning of Divine Liturgy in the rite of Constantinople, quoting Psalm 118 (Masoretic 119):126 “the time has come for the Lord to act.”

 

[Isa_Almisry]

For those, especially our Baptist brethren, who wonder:

Q: Does baptism save you?

A: **Yes! ** 1 Peter 3:17-22 “It is better, if it is God’s will, to suffer for doing good than for doing evil. For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit, through whom also he went and preached to the spirits in prison who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water, and this water (through which Noah and family were delivered - po18guy) symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a good conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ, who has gone into heaven and is at God’s right hand—with angels, authorities and powers in submission to him.”

Q: Are you saved by faith alone?

A: No! James 2:18-26 (King James Version) "Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way? For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

What this is not: Works based salvation. No. A living, breathing faith leads you to works of righteousness.

Christ’s peace.

Don’t confuse him with the facts.

 

[Isa_Almisry]

It’s called believing in the Church and the Church says the Baptists are wrong when it comes to just believe and you are saved. Dogma’s prevent us from wandering too far off from the truth of a verse as the Baptists clearly have done.

So being the humble servant of Christ and His Bride that cydonian is, he/she did the right thing by knowing the Baptists are very wrong in their interpretation of that verse and asking other Catholics on here for some imput for a good response.

I’m curious: what would our Baptist friends tell the Ethiopian eunuch? Acts 8:31.

 

[peary1]

What exactly did Jesus mean by these words?

I always thought it meant that his suffering was done. His time on earth, and what he came to do here, was done.
My Baptist friends try to tell that it means Jesus did all there was to do for us. All our sins are forgiven and that is that. We don’t have to do anything more but believe.
Please help me respond to them with what Jesus really meant.

**If you study Scripture carefully, you will notice that Jesus said these words He did so ONLY after He gave His mother to John the disciple, and thus, to the Church. With this final act, He gave all He could, including His death on the Cross for our sake.

The Bible does not say in any way that we are not responsible for the sins we commit after our Baptism, but that God established, through Jesus Christ, a new covenant by which sins could be forgiven without the Old Law.**

 

[Isa_Almisry]

I already have the fullness of

And therein lies the difference. We believe that God reveals His truth through His word. You believe He reveals it through fallible men.

Oh? did a hand write the Bible on the wall for you. Who are these Matthew, Mark, Luke and John characters?

Name one.

That only adults can be baptized, that baptism confers no grace, that only full immersion counts, solo scriptura (a belief not found, actually denied in the scripture), priesthood of all believers to the exclusion of the three ordained orders of priesthood, local congregationalism to the exclusion of the hierarchal universal Church.

That’s a start.

Actually, my soul is not at stake. I am already saved and the state of my “soul” is assured.

I Corinthians 10:12 biblical enough for you?

 

[Isa_Almisry]

How can I respond to his question unless I know what his motives are?

Whether it was asked in good faith or not was never the issue. I never had any doubts that he asked it in good faith until his response to me. I was just asking what his purpose was so that I know how to answer his question.

Jesus meant exactly what He said: “tetelestai”, which literally means “the debt has been paid”.

Now it’s your turn to do your usual gymnastics in order to claim that He really said something entirely different.

Try a concordance:
From telos; to end, i.e. Complete, execute, conclude, discharge (a debt) – accomplish, make an end, expire, fill up, finish, go over, pay, perform.

The Aramaic has a pun of sorts:
ܟܕ ܕܝܢ ܫܩܠ ܗܘ ܚܠܐ ܝܫܘܥ ܐܡܪ ܗܐ ܡܫܠܡ ܘܐܪܟܢ ܪܫܗ ܘܐܫܠܡ ܪܘܚܗ

The Aramaic root is the same as the Hebrew Shalom, the Arabic salam, and means to be whole, at peace, safe, sound.

 

[Isa_Almisry]

So why should I believe your church over the Bible?

Figure out where you got your Bible, and you should have your answer.

Thank you for proving my point. Catholics are so brainwashed by the Catholic church that they must believe that anything a Baptist says is wrong, simply by virtue of the fact that a Baptist said it.

No, experience plays its part.

They can’t even engage in honest, rational discussion.

Where did that log come from?

 

[Skip_Wiley]

Don’t confuse him with the facts.

And don’t confuse the facts with Catholic babble.

 

[Skip_Wiley]

Figure out where you got your Bible, and you should have your answer.

I love this argument. The Catholic assumes that because the council that compiled the individual books into the Bible were largely Catholic, that the Bible is now subject to the Catholic church.

The Bible is not subject to the Catholic church. The Catholic church is subject to the Bible.

No, experience plays its part.

And neither reason, Biblical authority, or even good manners plays any role.

 

[Isa_Almisry]

I know Christ as much as it is possible to know Him here on Earth.

Oh, He can be known a bit more, it is evident.

Actually, I’m already a part of the church He founded.

Are you now? Can you show that? Luke 10:16.

Btw, who Baptized you? The book of Acts is quite clearly you are baptized into Christ’s Church, it was His last and great commission. But since infant baptism, which you do not recognize, became the norm around a thousand years ago, where do you get your baptism from?

In Temple Square in Salt Lake City, they have the statues of Joseph and Hyrum Smith being baptized by John the Baptist come back in glorified body. Maybe you should check them out, their position is more logically consistent than your interpretation of the Bible.

I understand that you don’t recognize us as a legitimate part of the church but, frankly, I don’t care.

And of course what you think means much, 2000 thousand years from the source.

Actually, it’s clear from the Bible that I’m saved. Sorry, but I trust God’s word, not the scare tactics of your cult.

That same cult that copied the Bible and put it together? Why do you trust that they got that right?

Oh yeah, all of your name calling and personal attacks really shows that you love me.

The Lord chastizes whom He loves, so be zealous and repent.

Then I guess God and I are just arrogant.

I wasn’t aware God needed saving. You learn something new everyday.

yes, St. Paul warned the Corinthians, and he warns you.

And if you believe that the fullness of truth is in your organization and not in Christ, then you are a fool.

And if you think it is in your denomination, which doesn’t date back more than 5 centuries, and your own personal interpretation…

By the way, before I put you on ignore, I just want to point out one more time that you never did back up your statements about Baptists.

You were never able to come up with an example of any of our doctrines that is unbiblical, like you claimed.

I’ve posted a list. I’ll see if you respond.

 

[Skip_Wiley]

Try a concordance

Try some manners.

 

[Isa_Almisry]

Unfortunately, we don’t know that that’s why he asked because he wouldn’t answer the question.

Yes, which is why he must defeat the Christians.

You claim the name, but where’s your title to it?

Which is none of the people here.

Wrong there. We Orthodox and the followers of the Vatican might argue which of us wrote and compiled the Bible, but we know Baptists wrote not a verse, composed not a book, gathered not a canon of Scripture, copied not a single manuscript. Instead they took the work of our hands under God’s guidance and claim to know what it means. Copyright infrindgement.

 

[Isa_Almisry]

And don’t confuse the facts with Catholic babble.

The Vatican’s babble I’m afraid is far more coherent than your cacophony.

 

[Isa_Almisry]

I love this argument.

I am glad you love truth.

The Catholic assumes that because the council that compiled the individual books into the Bible were largely Catholic,

They were all Catholic. Not a Baptist (or Protestant) to be found for a millenium.

that the Bible is now subject to the Catholic church.

Again, how would you answer the Ethiopian eunuch. Acts 8:31?

The Bible is not subject to the Catholic church. The Catholic church is subject to the Bible.

Sorry, you have put the cart before the horse. Christ founded the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church. He didn’t write a single verse (go to the Muslim for that line of thought).

God the Word called the Church His Body, not the Word of God.

For instance, in the discussion on the deaconate in Acts, there is no discussion of Scripture. The Church acts within her authority. Otherwise, you’re going to have to join up with the Pharisees to pursue you line of thought, for Christ spoke with authority, not like the scribes.

And neither reason, Biblical authority, or even good manners plays any role.

Watch out for those logs.

 

[Isa_Almisry]

Try some manners.

Please try a concordance.

 

[PraRFLEsEkHm]

…and drown like so many others.

Oh Please

I don’t see how simply dismissing everything I say with “oh, you’re a non-Catholic. What could you possibly know” is doing that.

is everyone doing that?

And if He’d been talking about original sin, you might have a point.

If His death wasn’t about sin, then what was it about?

Same way 1 John tells us.

Did you mean this:

1Jn 1:5 This is the message that we have heard from him and declare to you: God is light, and in him there is no darkness-none at all!
1Jn 1:6 If we claim that we have fellowship with him but keep living in the darkness, we are lying and the truth is not in us.
1Jn 1:7 But if we keep living in the light as he himself is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin.
1Jn 1:8 If we say that we do not have any sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us.
1Jn 1:9 If we make it our habit to confess our sins, he is faithful and righteous to forgive us those sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Sounds pretty much like what I had posted before…did you even read that?

BTW - if you take vs 9 and put it with Jas 5:16

" Therefore, make it your habit to confess your sins to one another and to pray for one another, so that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous person is powerful and effective"

You have the Sacrament of Confession

And therein lies the difference. You see it as a life long effort that you must constantly wrestle with in order to win.

So does Paul, and Peter, John (as we just read) and James…Etc.

Christians see it as a one time event that Christ has already won.

Not ALL Christians

Maybe you would like to offer your perspective on what you refute, and back it up with some verses? After all, we are using the Bible here, rather than fallible men, aren’t we?

Strawman. Nobody said that’s how we’re saved.

Then how do YOU say you are saved?

Also -

[SIGN]1Pe 3:8 Finally, all of you must live in harmony, be sympathetic, love as brothers, and be compassionate and humble.
1Pe 3:9 Do not pay others back evil for evil or insult for insult. Instead, bless them, because you were called to inherit a blessing.
1Pe 3:10 For “the person who wants to love life and see good days must keep his tongue from evil and his lips from speaking deceit.
1Pe 3:11 He must turn away from evil and do good. He must seek peace and pursue it.
1Pe 3:12 For the eyes of the Lord are on the righteous, and his ears are attentive to their prayer. But the face of the Lord is against those who do wrong.” [/SIGN]

Perhaps we could all follow this a little closer?

Peace

John

 

[po18guy]

Skip, I wish you all the best in your life. But you know NO TRUTH about the Catholic Church and continue to calumniate against her. Thank you! You have just stored up treasure for us in Heaven. Praise God! I pray for you.

The peace of christ be with you.

 

[po18guy]

FELLOW CHRISTIANS WHO SHARE OUR LOVE OF CHRISTOne member in particular has anger in his heart rather than love. He is in great need of prayer. As to the content of his posts, please click on the triangle in the upper right corner of the affected post and report the violation(s) of forum rules.

Again, he is in great need of prayer.

Christ’s peace to all.

 

[po18guy]

Don’t confuse him with the facts.

Thanks for covering my back. He is one angry man, who apparently cannot miss the narrow gate even if he commits murder. He is in great need of prayer, as the demon is leading him far astray from Christ’s truth.

I will pray for him.