It is the Catholic Church that makes us Christians.....

[Telstar]

Baptism, not self identification, makes one Christian.

John 5:31 If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true.

Unless there is a credible ‘witness’, the one who makes any kind of claim about himself, cannot be validated as true. Even Jesus would not just declare Who or what He was, based solely by His Own word. That’s why He didn’t go around boasting to everyone that they should all listen to Him, because He was God. The Apostles were His chosen witnesses. It’s their testimony, and the testimony given by the Father and the Holy Ghost at His Baptism, that bear witness to Him.

If Jesus never intended for all of us to actually be Baptized, why did He go to be Baptized by John? He was not guilty of any sin that needed to be washed away. What purpose did it serve, other than to provide yet another example of something that we should all, “do this in remembrance of Me”? Everything He did in His public life was meant to be an example of what we must do in order to be saved, as well as the way we should live our lives as His followers. If we fail to do them as He directed us, then we are not really ‘Christian’ in the fullest sense of the term, because we pick and choose what to believe or not believe, based solely on our own ‘testimony’.

IMHO, the only way to attain the “fullness of Christ”, is in the Catholic Church. However, those who are at least Baptized by invoking the Holy Trinity, are all made a part of the Body of Christ, and are Christians. But, they do not have the full measure of grace that only comes from the true Church. It’s much more difficult for us to achieve the highest level of perfection without the graces that the Church provides in the Sacraments. That doesn’t mean that other Christians can’t be saved, it’s just a tougher road to follow. Those who are not even Baptized, have it even tougher than those who are. So, I can’t for the life of me understand how anyone that really loves Jesus, would not want to experience the “fullness of Christ”.

 

[PJM]

=wisdomseeker;8385563]Do you agree or dissagree? Why or why not?

No; Christian Baptism and a belief and UNDERSTANDIN of just whi ans what Jesus Christ are accomplish that.

However simply “being a Christian” dos not automatically lead to salvation:thumbsup:

God Bless,
Pat

Psalms 127:1
"Unless the Lord builds the house, those who build it labor in vain. Unless the Lord watches over the city, the watchman stays awake in vain."

 

[wisdomseeker]

I don’t deny the existence of the Catholic church…there’s one on the corner not far from my house…I simply do not believe the claims it makes for itself nor do I accept the mythic history it paints of its establishment.

Jesus never spoke of the Catholic church nor did he found the Catholic church…you believe differently…that’s fine…I’m good with that.

Your beliefs frame God and the salvation story within a reference you can understand…it does not do so for me…it makes the whole “God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself” meaningless to me…the simple understanding of the Society of Friends puts the story of salvation in a framework I can understand and accept…it provides a base for me to “work out my own salvation…”…something that the Catholic church does for you.

We both are in Good Hands…God will honor the faith put in Him of any who diligenly seek Him and try to understand the awesome story of grace found in Jesus of Nazareth…if I’m wrong…there is grace abounding and astounding mercy and love in Christ…“Lord…I believe…help my unbelief…”…yes…we are in Good Hands.

Psalms 127:1
“Unless the Lord builds the house, those who build it labor in vain. Unless the Lord watches over the city, the watchman stays awake in vain.”

 

[Cable]

…
Jesus never spoke of the Catholic church nor did he found the Catholic church…you believe differently…that’s fine…I’m good with that…

yes, not only differently, but in ways that contradict some of your beliefs, which isn’t really settled since there can only be one Truth. One of us has a false belief about who God is and what all He does concerning His Church.

 

[Cable]

…Your beliefs frame God and the salvation story within a reference you can understand…

Not always, examples; transubstantiation, the effects of the Sacraments - that’s a pretty high bar. We believe because we accepted first - and in doing so more understanding came as well as the certainty that these teachings about Jesus are true.

 

[Rock_Happy]

Yes.

Because we cannot separate “the Church” from “Christ.” The Church is the “Body of Christ”

Asking “does the Church make us Christian?” is like asking “does Christ make us Christian?” *

See the Vatican II document “Lumen Gentium” especially #8 adoremus.org/LumenGentium.html

• (of course, Christ does not “make” us Christian in the sense of forcing us, but rather “belief in Christ” makes us Christian)

Hmmm… so an religious, political, and financial institution governed by men, and with a sometimes noble, though sometimes reprehensible history is claimed to be the “body of Christ”. I don’t mean to be disrespectful of anyone’s beliefs, but that sounds highly suspect to me. Christ would not have burned heretics, persecuted Jews… etc. I am not dismissing the more noble achievements, but really…

 

[1ke]

Hmmm… so an religious, political, and financial institution governed by men, and with a sometimes noble, though sometimes reprehensible history is claimed to be the “body of Christ”. I don’t mean to be disrespectful of anyone’s beliefs, but that sounds highly suspect to me.

Yep, that’s the Church Christ founded, the one full of sinners and yet one, holy, catholic, and apostolic. Led by men who denied him, killed Christians, and otherwise committed personal sins and made mistakes. Yet, thankfully, are protected from ever erring in faith an morals.

Christ would not have burned heretics, persecuted Jews… etc. I am not dismissing the more noble achievements, but really…

Your oversimplification of this is interesting, but wholly inadequate.

Firstly, the state did these things. The rulers of the day saw themselves as defenders of the faith, and yes did have laws regarding heresy being a capital crime. Mostly as a remedy to heretical groups creating anarchy and revolution in their territories. One must understand the times to understand the state punishments and these things in their context. Regarding persecution of the Jews, that too can be traced to politics and civil unrest, such as Isabelle and Ferdinand’s expulsion of the Jews.

Was it right? No, not necessarily. And certainly not according to our modern notion of the state and personal rights.
“The Church” behind it? No.
Were some individuals **in **the Church complicit with abuses or perpetratrs of abuses? Yes. Certainly. We are all sinners.

 

[wisdomseeker]

Hmmm… so an religious, political, and financial institution governed by men, and with a sometimes noble, though sometimes reprehensible history is claimed to be the “body of Christ”. I don’t mean to be disrespectful of anyone’s beliefs, but that sounds highly suspect to me. Christ would not have burned heretics, persecuted Jews… etc. I am not dismissing the more noble achievements, but really…

But does your opinion really counts? No. it does not.

all those claims you make has no barrier against the True Church found by Christ. Plus, you need to check your history. it is not like you think it is.

The Jews were the chosen people despite of what they did. So, it is with the Church, our Lord promised to be with His Church until the end of times. He made with a Covenant with His Church and can never be broken. I cannot expect you to understand how a Covenant with God works.

 

[Cable]

Hmmm… so an religious, political, and financial institution governed by men, and with a sometimes noble, though sometimes reprehensible history is claimed to be the “body of Christ”…

OK, but you’re perceiving the Church to be an ordinary institution full of beneficial things, but also some errors. That’s just it. The Church isn’t ordinary b/c it’s Jesus Himself and He says as much to Saul (Acts 9). It is governed & protected from misperceptions/doctrinal errors by God who is Truth itself. In the Gospels people misread Jesus often enough (Mt. 13, Jn 6:52, Mk 8:27) b/c they perceive Him to be an ordinary man, like themselves.

Here’s more from NewAdvent.org on the Mystical Body: "The analogy borne by any society of men to an organism is sufficiently manifest. In every society the constituent individuals are united, as are also the members of a body, to effect a common end; while the parts they severally play correspond to the functions of the bodily organs. They form a moral unity. This, of course, is true of the Church, but the Church has also a unity of a higher order; it is not merely a moral but a mystical body. This truth, that the Church is the mystical body of Christ, all its members being guided and directed by Christ the head, is set forth by St. Paul in various passages, more especially in Ephesians 4:4-13 (cf. John 15:5-8). The doctrine may be summarized as follows:

The members of the Church are bound together by a supernatural life communicated to them by Christ through the sacraments (John 15:5). Christ is the centre and source of life to Whom all are united, and Who endows each one with gifts fitting him for his position in the body (John 15:7-12). These graces, through which each is equipped for his work, form it into an organized whole, whose parts are knit together as though by a system of ligaments and joints (John 15:16; Colossians 2:19).
Through them, too, the Church has its growth and increase, growing in extension as it spreads through the world, and intensively as the individual Christian develops in himself the likeness of Christ (John 15:13-15).
In virtue of this union the Church is the fulness or complement (pleroma) of Christ (Ephesians 1:23). It forms one whole with Him; and the Apostle even speaks of the Church as "Christ" (1 Corinthians 12:12).
This union between head and members is conserved and nourished by the Holy Eucharist. Through this sacrament our incorporation into the Body of Christ is alike outwardly symbolized and inwardly actualized; "We being many are one bread, one body; for we all partake of the one bread" (1 Corinthians 10:17)."

 

[Psalm_51]

By His Spirit are we “baptized into Christ” and are joined to His Body.

No, it’s by Spirt and Water:

John 3:5 Jesus says, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.”

Water is necessary and it isn’t embryonic fluid.

Baptism is what saves you, ie., makes you a Christian:

“Baptism . . . now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body, but as an appeal to God for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ” (1 Pet. 3:21; cf. Acts 2:38, 22:16, Rom. 6:3–4, Col. 2:11–12).

 

[Psalm_51]

I don’t need to “define” His Church for anyone…I simply am a member of His Body…I just have faith in Him that through His Spirit.

James 2:24 “You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.”

 

[Publisher]

James 2:24 “You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.”

WHEW! Then I’m good.

 

[Publisher]

No, it’s by Spirt and Water:

John 3:5 Jesus says, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.”

Water is necessary and it isn’t embryonic fluid.

Baptism is what saves you, ie., makes you a Christian:

“Baptism . . . now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body, but as an appeal to God for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ” (1 Pet. 3:21; cf. Acts 2:38, 22:16, Rom. 6:3–4, Col. 2:11–12).

We disagree…consider I have “baptism of desire”.…and that I’m “invincibly ignorant” of my need for ritual water cleansing.

 

[Psalm_51]

Do you agree or dissagree? Why or why not?
Psalms 127:1
"Unless the Lord builds the house, those who build it labor in vain. Unless the Lord watches over the city, the watchman stays awake in vain."

The answer has to be no. Here is what makes one a Christian:

Someone who is born again of spirit and water through the regenerative power of the Holy Spirit by Holy Baptism in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost.

The Catholic Church recognizes everyone who has been so duly baptized whether they be Protestant or Catholic. That is why a second baptism is not required for Catholic converts. Mormon baptism is not accepted however.

 

[Psalm_51]

You are totally right about Church teaching…again, I’m not talking about Church teaching. I am speaking in general. Generally, people who identify as Christians are accepted as Christians. And it’s rude to deny that another person is not Christian, when they have identified themselves as Christians. In order to be Catholic, one has to be Baptised Catholic…there’s no denying that. But non-Catholic Christians are not claiming to be Catholic. They are identifying themselves as Christians…which they are. Again, those who claim that self-identified Christians are not Christians because they don’t meet certain criteria of someone outside themselves are not taken seriously — because non-Catholic Christians don’t care about the rules of a Church to which they don’t belong.

The Catholic Church is the only Church which Jesus founded and the fullness of the Truth lies within it. Scripture is clear that baptism is what makes one a Christian and not just personal testimony, faith alone, or belief. Even the demons believe that Jesus is the Son of God and not everyone who says, “Lord, Lord,” will be saved.

 

[Psalm_51]

I am currently in RCIA, but have considered myself a Christian my entire life. I was raised in a Christian home, baptised under the trinitarian form of baptism, but through many years of study, I have come to the realization that the Catholic Church has the fullness of faith. Does this mean I was never a true Christian? NO! The Catholic Church, nor any church “makes” a person Christian. It is through the belief in Christ as our Savior and following His teachings that makes a person a Christian. However, I do believe that a person must believe in the Holy Trinity to be considered a Christian, otherwise, you are denying Jesus as God.

Your baptism made you a Christian even though at the time you thought it was merely symbolic, which came about because you, an adult, believed that Jesus was the Son of God and the savior of the world.

 

[Psalm_51]

We disagree…consider I have “baptism of desire”.…and that I’m “invincibly ignorant” of my need for ritual water cleansing.

Your beef is with Scripture, not me.

 

[jam070406]

We disagree…consider I have “baptism of desire”.…and that I’m “invincibly ignorant” of my need for ritual water cleansing.

If you have the desire then why would you not be baptized in water?

 

[Publisher]

Your beef is with Scripture, not me.

I don’t have a “beef” with scripture…or you…I understand the passage you quoted differently…that’s all.

 

[wisdomseeker]

The answer has to be no. Here is what makes one a Christian:

Someone who is born again of spirit and water through the regenerative power of the Holy Spirit by Holy Baptism in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost.

The Catholic Church recognizes everyone who has been so duly baptized whether they be Protestant or Catholic. That is why a second baptism is not required for Catholic converts. Mormon baptism is not accepted however.

Hummmm…