It is the Catholic Church that makes us Christians.....

[Publisher]

If you have the desire then why would you not be baptized in water?

I have the “desire” to obey God in all things…but my conscience forbids me to undergo a ritual washing of water in order to please God when I cannot convince myself that it is a necessary ritual to be a follower of Jesus Christ nor to experience His abiding Presence in my life…to me to undergo a ritual for ritual’s sake would be hypocritical…I would think being a hypocrite would be much more offensive to God than refusing to get my head wet from someone chanting/speaking a “correct” formula as they wet my head with water…which I would believe did nothing other than wet my head.

 

[Psalm_51]

I don’t have a “beef” with scripture…or you…I understand the passage you quoted differently…that’s all.

Martin Luther, after 1,500 years of Church history gave us private intepretation. What we have is thousands of “personal” interpretations of the same passage of Scripture. Surely Jesus didn’t want that. God (Jesus) cannot contradict himself. The Holy Spirit doesn’t say one thing to you and something else contradictory to thousands of other people when he guides the Church into all Truth.

What is the pillar and foundation of the truth?

 

[Publisher]

Martin Luther, after 1,500 years of Church history gave us private intepretation. What we have is thousands of “personal” interpretations of the same passage of Scripture. Surely Jesus didn’t want that. God (Jesus) cannot contradict himself. The Holy Spirit doesn’t say one thing to you and something else contradictory to thousands of othe people when he guides the Church into all Truth.

What is the pillar and foundation of the truth?

You assume I accept the interpretations of your own church community…I don’t…to me…you and the members of your community offer “personal interpretation” concerning this passage as well…I in good conscience cannot give up my God given responsibility to “work out my own salvation” to simply “do what I’m told” by any ecclesial community…no matter how sincerely they believe they speak for God…I will stand before God on the Last Day and be judged for what I do and how my life was conducted and I will give account for what I believe…not what you or your own particular faith community tells me I must believe…I think on That Day…you will have your own account to worry about.

 

[Psalm_51]

I don’t have a “beef” with scripture…

Au contraire! Scripture is clear that baptism by water is salvific. You definitely have a disagreement with what Scripture teaches.

I hope this is helpful to you:

archive.catholic.com/thisrock/2008/0803fea2.asp

 

[Publisher]

Au contraire! Scripture is clear that baptism by water is salvific. You definitely have a disagreement with what Scripture teaches.

I hope this is helpful to you:

archive.catholic.com/thisrock/2008/0803fea2.asp

“Au contraire”…you have simply given me the position of your faith community concerning this scripture…which I reject…to submit to a ritual I do not believe has any salvic value to me at all would be hypocritical on my part…surely you don’t suggest that is a viable alternative?

 

[Psalm_51]

You assume I accept the interpretations of your own church community…I don’t…to me…you and the members of your community offer “personal interpretation” concerning this passage as well…I in good conscience cannot give up my God given responsibility to “work out my own salvation” to simply “do what I’m told” by any ecclesial community…no matter how sincerely they believe they speak for God…I will stand before God on the Last Day and be judged for what I do and how my life was conducted and I will give account for what I believe…not what you or your own particular faith community tells me I must believe…I think on That Day…you will have your own account to worry about.

Sorry but Christianity is a body of believers and Jesus appointed priests to forgive sins, bishops to bind and to loose, and elders to take care of the needy, etc.

There is no such thing as “just Jesus and me.” This is post-modern gobble-dee-gook.

There is no such thing as the lone ranger in Christianity. You have to be accountable to the body of believers and submit to Church authority. Scripture is clear on that.

 

[Psalm_51]

“Au contraire”…you have simply given me the position of your faith community concerning this scripture…which I reject…to submit to a ritual I do not believe has any salvic value to me at all would by hypocritical on my part…surely you don’t suggest that is a viable alternative?

What the Catholic Church teaches, Jesus teaches.

 

[Publisher]

Sorry but Christianity is a body of believers and Jesus appointed priests to forgive sins, bishops to bind and to loose, and elders to take care of the needy, etc.

There is no such thing as “just Jesus and me.” This is post-modern gobble-dee-gook.

There is no such thing as the lone ranger in Christianity. You have to be accountable to the body of believers and submit to Church authority. Scripture is clear on that.

Again, I do not believe in a “just Jesus and me”…the SOCIETY of Friends is that…a society of men and women who seek to know Him and do His will TOGETHER…we do not believe in a “lone ranger” form of belief…I am accountable to the Church which meets each First Day in community to worship and pray and serveice TOGETHER…I am accountalbe to my monthly meeting in discharging the duties and responsibilites I ahve been called to…"“lone ranger” is a caricature of your own making…we as Friends reject that caricature.

We hold an individual and corporate theology…the “corporate works of mercy” are central to our beliefs a Friends…hardly…“jesus and me”.

 

[Publisher]

What the Catholic Church teaches, Jesus teaches.

Since I reject your position concerning the status of your particular organization as speaking for Jesus…it would still be hypocritical of me to submit to a ritual cleansing when it has no salvic significance for me…surely you are not advocating that undergoing the ritual is slavic when I reject it’s salvic merit out right?

 

[jam070406]

I have the “desire” to obey God in all things…but my conscience forbids me to undergo a ritual washing of water in order to please God when I cannot convince myself that it is a necessary ritual to be a follower of Jesus Christ nor to experience His abiding Presence in my life…to me to undergo a ritual for ritual’s sake would be hypocritical…I would think being a hypocrite would be much more offensive to God than refusing to get my head wet from someone chanting/speaking a “correct” formula as they wet my head with water…which I would believe did nothing other than wet my head.

Believe and be baptized. It’s not just an empty ritual. We rise again anew in Christ. We are incorporated in the body, the spiritual effect of Original Sin, death, is washed away and we are infused with the Holy Spirit. It is a great gift from God. By denying baptism you deny the working of the Holy Spirit in your soul.

 

[Publisher]

Believe and be baptized. It’s not just an empty ritual. We rise again anew in Christ. We are incorporated in the body, the spiritual effect of Original Sin, death, is washed away and we are infused with the Holy Spirit. It is a great from God. By denying baptism you deny the working of the Holy Spirit in your soul.

And yet I experience His abiding Presence…I reject ritual cleansing…I do not reject the regenerative work of the Holy Spirit…and I am more than willing to place myself under His judgement on That Day…He will judge me in love, mercy and His judgement will be just and right and perfect…I am in Good Hands.

 

[jam070406]

Since I reject your position concerning the status of your particular organization as speaking for Jesus…it would still be hypocritical of me to submit to a ritual cleansing when it has no salvic significance for me…surely you are not advocating that undergoing the ritual is slavic when I reject it’s salvic merit out right?

Baptism is necessary for salvation. It’s what Jesus and the Apostles taught. It’s what was believed by everyone, everywhere from the early Church throughout the Church age.

 

[Publisher]

Baptism is necessary for salvation. It’s what Jesus and the Apostles taught. It’s what was believed by everyone, everywhere from the early Church throughout the Church age.

So again I ask, should I undergo ritual water baptism against my conscience and beliefs and by doing so undertake a hypocirtical venutre in order to “attain salvation” when I reject it’s salvic value?

Which is more offensive…being a hypocrit or under going a ritual to insure I have “fire insurance”…which I reject?

 

[jam070406]

And yet I experience His abiding Presence…I reject ritual cleansing…I do not reject the regenerative work of the Holy Spirit…and I am more than willing to place myself under His judgement on That Day…He will judge me in love, mercy and His judgement will be just and right and perfect…I am in Good Hands.

He is the just judge, and the reality is there will be those that He says, I never knew you.
How can one expect to live according to his own will as opposed to what God Himself ordained?

 

[Publisher]

He is the just judge, and the reality is there will be those that He says, I never knew you.
How can one expect to live according to his own will as opposed to what God Himself ordained?

He IS the best Judge…I am in Good Hands.

 

[jam070406]

So again I ask, should I undergo ritual water baptism against my conscience and beliefs and by doing so undertake a hypocirtical venutre in order to “attain salvation” when I reject it’s salvic value?

Which is more offensive…being a hypocrit or under going a ritual to insure I have “fire insurance”…which I reject?

You should pray for the grace to come to believe it. Because being baptized is His will for you. It’s no small potatoes and it’s not something you should scoff at. If you are serious about doing Gods will then you must surrender yours.

 

[jam070406]

He IS the best Judge…I am in Good Hands.

Yes, and He desires you to be baptized so you can receive His mercy. In this life and the life to come.
Ask yourself why baptism has always been so important in the history of the Church.

 

[Publisher]

Yes, and He desires you to be baptized so you can receive His mercy. In this life and the life to come.
Ask yourself why baptism has always been so important in the history of the Church.

I have asked myself that question…and I have come to a conclusion that answers that question…that is why I cannot…will not undergo a ritual that I find in the end, I cannot believe any salvic significance is carried by the ritual…it is not your conclusion…nor the conclusion of your particular faith community…I do not beleive He desires any such thing…my experience with God indicates I have been in receipt of His astounding grace and mercy in Christ…that you fear for my soul is commendable…but I find misplaced…I am in Good Hands.

 

[jam070406]

I have asked myself that question…and I have come to a conclusion that answers that question…that is why I cannot…will not undergo a ritual that I find in the end, I cannot believe any salvic significance is carried by the ritual…it is not your conclusion…nor the conclusion of your particular faith community…I do not beleive He desires any such thing…my experience with God indicates I have been in receipt of His astounding grace and mercy in Christ…that you fear for my soul is commendable…but I find misplaced…I am in Good Hands.

Yes, you keep saying it’s what “you believe” what “you want”
If you cannot believe then must pray that you will come to believe.
His will be done!

 

[Publisher]

Yes, you keep saying it’s what “you believe” what “you want”
If you cannot believe then must pray that you will come to believe.
His will be done!

“Lord i believe, help my unbelief”…I just can’t believe God would rather find me hypocritical in the matter of water baptism over being faithful to what I can believe.

No one has answered my question…is not being able to beleive in the efficacy of water baptism more offensive than hypocricy?