It is the Catholic Church that makes us Christians.....

[Publisher]

I apologize if I ever came off as offensive. Forgive me for getting agitated.

Of course…it happens to the best of us it would seem.

 

[Telstar]

First, you state here…

I in good conscience cannot give up my God given responsibility to “work out my own salvation” to simply “do what I’m told” by any ecclesial community…no matter how sincerely they believe they speak for God.

Then, you state this, here…

Again, I do not believe in a “just Jesus and me”…the SOCIETY of Friends is that…a society of men and women who seek to know Him and do His will TOGETHER…we do not believe in a “lone ranger” form of belief…I am accountable to the Church which meets each First Day in community to worship and pray and serveice TOGETHER…I am accountalbe to my monthly meeting in discharging the duties and responsibilites I ahve been called to…"“lone ranger” is a caricature of your own making…we as Friends reject that caricature.

We hold an individual and corporate theology…the “corporate works of mercy” are central to our beliefs a Friends…hardly…“jesus and me”.

Hmmmm… those two statements seem to be a bit contradictory, no?

While you claim not to “do what I’m told”**** by anyone else, especially any Church authority, on the other hand you are claiming that you are, in fact, doing exactly that, only in a different format.

On a side note: Do you by any chance sell insurance? You seem to mention ‘fire insurance’, and repeat the line, “I’m in Good Hands”, an awful lot, so I was just wondering if it was a force of habit.

 

[Publisher]

First, you state here…
Then, you state this, here…

Hmmmm… those two statements seem to be a bit contradictory, no?

While you claim not to “do what I’m told”**** by anyone else, especially any Church authority, on the other hand you are claiming that you are, in fact, doing exactly that, only in a different format.

On a side note: Do you by any chance sell insurance? You seem to mention ‘fire insurance’, and repeat the line, “I’m in Good Hands”, an awful lot, so I was just wondering if it was a force of habit.

No, not to me…I am accountable to the Meeting for those tasks I have been called to discharge. I am accountable to the Meeting for my actions and how my life is conducted…I am accountable to the Meeting in that I have agreed to support it’s ministry with my time and resources of service…how I discharge those obligations in a Quakerly manner the Meeting has “authority” over me as a representative of the Meeting…the Meeting does not dictate my beliefs…nor would they claim to.

No…I have fundamentalist family…they are always talking about the fires of hell and it always seems to me that faith and salvation are seen in terms of “fire insurance”…they seem to indicate the only reason to believe in Christ and trust in Him is to keep them from hell…they seem to be stating that if they weren’t afraid of hell’s fires and torment…they would “live like the devil”…such a faith seems disturbingly lacking in any joy and peace.

The “Good Hands” euphemism and “fire insurance” was accidental…I laughed over the question…I can see how in this “jingle” and “slogan” world…how easy that would be to conclude.

 

[SteveVH]

Since I reject your position concerning the status of your particular organization as speaking for Jesus…it would still be hypocritical of me to submit to a ritual cleansing when it has no salvic significance for me…surely you are not advocating that undergoing the ritual is slavic when I reject it’s salvic merit out right?

Do you believe that the jewish “ritual” of circumcision was necessary in order for one to enter into the Covenant God established with Abraham? We do not choose what is salvific and what is not. That is up to God. So you cannot say that it has no salvific significance for you, as if it was up to you. You can deny its salvific significance for all, if you choose, but it is not subject to an individual’s preference.

 

[wisdomseeker]

No, not to me…I am accountable to the Meeting for those tasks I have been called to discharge. I am accountable to the Meeting for my actions and how my life is conducted…I am accountable to the Meeting in that I have agreed to support it’s ministry with my time and resources of service…how I discharge those obligations in a Quakerly manner the Meeting has “authority” over me as a representative of the Meeting…the Meeting does not dictate my beliefs…nor would they claim to.

No…I have fundamentalist family…they are always talking about the fires of hell and it always seems to me that faith and salvation are seen in terms of “fire insurance”…they seem to indicate the only reason to believe in Christ and trust in Him is to keep them from hell…they seem to be stating that if they weren’t afraid of hell’s fires and torment…they would “live like the devil”…such a faith seems disturbingly lacking in any joy and peace.

The “Good Hands” euphemism and “fire insurance” was accidental…I laughed over the question…I can see how in this “jingle” and “slogan” world…how easy that would be to conclude.

A perfect example of individualism. We cannot know how to serve God unless He tells us. That is why the Church is so important to us. she is the voice of God to tells us what God requires us to do.

One of us is wrong. either the Church is wrong and you are right or vice and verse. God is not divided and does not teach different things to different people. His Kingdom cannot be divided.

 

[Telstar]

No, not to me…I am accountable to the Meeting for those tasks I have been called to discharge. I am accountable to the Meeting for my actions and how my life is conducted…I am accountable to the Meeting in that I have agreed to support it’s ministry with my time and resources of service…how I discharge those obligations in a Quakerly manner the Meeting has “authority” over me as a representative of the Meeting…the Meeting does not dictate my beliefs…nor would they claim to.

No…I have fundamentalist family…they are always talking about the fires of hell and it always seems to me that faith and salvation are seen in terms of “fire insurance”…they seem to indicate the only reason to believe in Christ and trust in Him is to keep them from hell…they seem to be stating that if they weren’t afraid of hell’s fires and torment…they would “live like the devil”…such a faith seems disturbingly lacking in any joy and peace.

The “Good Hands” euphemism and “fire insurance” was accidental…I laughed over the question…I can see how in this “jingle” and “slogan” world…how easy that would be to conclude.

I can certainly understand how you could equate some people’s belief in certain practices as being solely for ‘fire insurance’ purposes. Some do seem to be more focused on trying to ‘stay out of hell’ rather than serving God in a loving way, for His Own sake. Contrary to popular opinion from those ‘outside looking in’, the Catholic Church actually focuses on our living our lives as Christ intended us to live them, by helping and serving others with true love for all of them, as a reflection of the love that God has for all of us. All of that increases our love for God, and our spiritual development toward perfection, and brings us closer to God, day by day. We don’t really need no “steenkin’ fire insurance” when our main focus is on loving God to the best of our ability, in this world.

I’ve seen you often use that phrase, so I couldn’t help making the joke. I’m actually a bit of a clown at heart.

 

[Publisher]

Do you believe that the jewish “ritual” of circumcision was necessary in order for one to enter into the Covenant God established with Abraham? We do not choose what is salvific and what is not. That is up to God. So you cannot say that it has no salvific significance for you, as if it was up to you. You can deny its salvific significance for all, if you choose, but it is not subject to an individual’s preference.

It is in that very light of circumcision that I view baptism…it was a Jewish ritual of the Law that was required at one time…but now fulfilled in Christ.

The “mikvah” or “ritual washing” employed by Jews and Muslims is no longer required to enter into covenant relationship with God…that the first Christians…who were Jews…continued to practice Jewish ritual is no great surprise…the first disciples continued to worship in the Temple…Paul offered sacrifice there years after he claimed to be a Christian…he even circumcised Timothy…James the Lord’s brother according to tradition was even a priest of the Temple…a strange oddity since Temple sacrifice had supposedly been fulfilled in Jesus’ death.

Paul stated “For I was not sent to baptize but to preach the gospel…” Strange phrase if salvic baptism was indeed part of the saving gospel message. In 1 Peter the phrase “baptism does now save us…” is followed by “(not putting away of the** filth of the flesh,** but the answer of a good conscience toward God)”.

The gospels state that John said…“I baptize you with water…BUT…he will baptize with the Holy Spirir and fire…” Paul stated there is but One Baptism…seems to me the One Baptism spoken of by Paul and contrasted by the Baptist’s statement of “water…BUT…”…gives me pause that perhaps they were speaking of something deeper…

That the early church performed such rituals is not in question…but are they salvic in nature…if Christ is our High Priest and each of us share in His Priesthood…and each of us may approach God directly with no other mediator but Christ…to require a rite or ritual performed FOR us by another sinful human to be accepted by God…seems odd to me…

I have a lot of questions…and not a lot of answers I can accept readily just because a religious body tells me I must be iniated by a ritual…

To me…it’s not as cut and dry as it is to you…I understand what some…if not most…of those first Christians understood…but they weren’t infallible…just because the Jewish rituals were continued…didn’t mean they were necessary.

In reading the gospels…Jesus was very forthright about his death and resurrection…but the disciples were startled he had actually risen…they struggled to understand…so do I…and I can’t in good conscience accept a religious body to decide for me…I must be able to 'work out my own salvation"…and trust in the One who knows me best and loves me most to deal justly with me.

 

[Publisher]

I can certainly understand how you could equate some people’s belief in certain practices as being solely for ‘fire insurance’ purposes. Some do seem to be more focused on trying to ‘stay out of hell’ rather than serving God in a loving way, for His Own sake. Contrary to popular opinion from those ‘outside looking in’, the Catholic Church actually focuses on our living our lives as Christ intended us to live them, by helping and serving others with true love for all of them, as a reflection of the love that God has for all of us. All of that increases our love for God, and our spiritual development toward perfection, and brings us closer to God, day by day. **

**I’ve seen you often use that phrase, so I couldn’t help making the joke. I’m actually a bit of a clown at heart.

This I can unite with entirely.

 

[Publisher]

I can certainly understand how you could equate some people’s belief in certain practices as being solely for ‘fire insurance’ purposes. Some do seem to be more focused on trying to ‘stay out of hell’ rather than serving God in a loving way, for His Own sake. Contrary to popular opinion from those ‘outside looking in’, the Catholic Church actually focuses on our living our lives as Christ intended us to live them, by helping and serving others with true love for all of them, as a reflection of the love that God has for all of us. All of that increases our love for God, and our spiritual development toward perfection, and brings us closer to God, day by day.** We don’t really need no “steenkin’ fire insurance” when our main focus is on loving God to the best of our ability, **in this world.

I’ve seen you often use that phrase, so I couldn’t help making the joke. I’m actually a bit of a clown at heart.

You speak my mind.

 

[Telstar]

You speak my mind.

Perhaps, but your interpretation of what I meant by that line, is likely to be much different than mine. I don’t consider the Church’s Sacraments as being ‘empty rituals’ without a real purpose. I consider them to be solid stepping stones that lead us on toward holiness.

 

[Publisher]

Perhaps, but your interpretation of what I meant by that line, is likely to be much different than mine. I don’t consider the Church’s Sacraments as being ‘empty rituals’ without a real purpose. I consider them to be solid stepping stones that lead us on toward holiness.

I believe that the stepping stones to holiness…is how we live and treat one another…life is sacramental…and this Sacrament has it’s “confection” in our world…the sacred and the secular come together in Jesus of Nazareth…that you find meaning in the established sacraments is wonderful…that you meet God in them is a blessing.

For me as a Friend…I find sacramental meaning and experience when the “sacraments” find their expression in my world…every meal shared has the potential for Christ to be Truly Present…every cup of water offered in his name is a “baptism”…every time our hands move to offer help and comfort the “sign of our faith” is made.

For me the “rituals” may be “empty”…if you find a fullness in them, who am I to tell you otherwise?

I have tried to explain a Quaker understanding of sacramental living…it is not meant to be offensive to your beliefs nor do I imply your spirituality is lacking in any way.

 

[Telstar]

I believe that the stepping stones to holiness…is how we live and treat one another…life is sacramental…and this Sacrament has it’s “confection” in our world…the sacred and the secular come together in Jesus of Nazareth…that you find meaning in the established sacraments is wonderful…that you meet God in them is a blessing.

For me as a Friend…I find sacramental meaning and experience when the “sacraments” find their expression in my world…every meal shared has the potential for Christ to be Truly Present…every cup of water offered in his name is a “baptism”…every time our hands move to offer help and comfort the “sign of our faith” is made.

For me the “rituals” may be “empty”…if you find a fullness in them, who am I to tell you otherwise?

I have tried to explain a Quaker understanding of sacramental living…it is not meant to be offensive to your beliefs nor do I imply your spirituality is lacking in any way.

I agree that the way we live our lives and treat others is a large and important part of our sanctification, but the blessings and spiritual effects of all of those actions are increased, immeasurably, when done with the added grace of the Holy Sacraments of the Church. I know I’ll never convince you of that, but it is the truth.

 

[Rock_Happy]

Yep, that’s the Church Christ founded, the one full of sinners and yet one, holy, catholic, and apostolic. Led by men who denied him, killed Christians, and otherwise committed personal sins and made mistakes. Yet, thankfully, are protected from ever erring in faith an morals.

Your oversimplification of this is interesting, but wholly inadequate.

Firstly, the state did these things. The rulers of the day saw themselves as defenders of the faith, and yes did have laws regarding heresy being a capital crime. Mostly as a remedy to heretical groups creating anarchy and revolution in their territories. One must understand the times to understand the state punishments and these things in their context. Regarding persecution of the Jews, that too can be traced to politics and civil unrest, such as Isabelle and Ferdinand’s expulsion of the Jews.

Was it right? No, not necessarily. And certainly not according to our modern notion of the state and personal rights.
“The Church” behind it? No.
Were some individuals **in **the Church complicit with abuses or perpetratrs of abuses? Yes. Certainly. We are all sinners.

So, you are saying that the burning of heretics, and 700 years of papal proclamations promoting anti-semitism are morally inerrant acts? Please explain how the complexity of your understanding rationalizes that one. I guess the simple approach which calls a spade a spade is just too simple. We can dismiss such obviously morally reprehensible acts by considering a complex notion of historic contemporaneity. Nice try. Too complex for my simple little mind. Or maybe, the simple and truthful approach is too difficult for the rationalizing mind, who tangles itself in a web of complexity to avoid truthfulness.

your turn. explain how putting jews in ghettos and making them wear badges is morally inerrant, due to the cultural complexity of the day. the society of jesus compiled a nice list of anti-semitic papal declarations. you are correct that the acts were committed by the state. you simplify your extremely sophisticated historic view by neglecting to mention that it is a matter of record that some rulers required papal prodding to do such things. let me know if you want the list of proclamations. i was accused of making it up myself, until i let the other shoe drop and revealed the source, which stopped the discussion cold.

 

[JimmytheButcher]

Do you agree or dissagree? Why or why not?

Allow me a manner of speaking. Only those who behold the Beatific Vision are Christians in the absolute sense. And, only Mary beholds the Beatific Vision in the most intimate sense. We Christian in our affinity to Mary.

 

[Psalm_51]

I have tried to answer honestly…candidly…faithfully…and yet…I can see that the only way to "prove’ my sincerity is to finally accept your understanding…even though I cannot do so in good conscience…so “not being able to” appears to be “refusing to” in your estimation? Interesting I must say.

I am forever grateful it is in Him I trust…and it is in His Presence I will one day give account…thankfully your estimation will not enter into the equation.

The disciples of Jesus could not in good conscience believe that one must eat his flesh and drink his blood, it was too hard of a teaching for them, so they left. Jesus did not correct them or ask them to come back nor did he tell them he was only speaking figuratively.

You seem to be doing the same thing. Jesus’ final command was to baptize. That was not a suggestion and he didn’t mean it symbolically.

 

[Psalm_51]

Publisher:
Am I not allowed to discuss my beliefs on this forum without the “flippant” responses as well?

Should I not be accorded the same courtesy? Is it assumed that one who does not share your faith tradition or beliefs by default is “flippant”?

Tell me…how would you wish me to discuss my belief concerning water baptism that you can accept as not possessing an “attitude”?

If I have “offended” you by my responses…it was not intended…is it my responses to your questions you find offensive…or my “attitude”…I have sought to be as pleasant and as courteous as possible…even against out right agression and in my opinion insults and accusations concerning the state of my mind and heart.

What brings you to a Catholic forum where you know you have many disagreements about your faith?

 

[BigFellaMick]

@Publisher I’ve only read a few pages of this debate but from what I’ve read of your responses all I see is “I believe this” or “I believe that” or “I reject that”. You have so much rebellion in your heart to the one Church literally built by the hands of Christ Himself. Please ask yourself (despite your own opinions) would Christ create the Catholic Church if He intended its sacraments to be invalid? Or its teaching flawed? And to answer to your charge that the Catholic Church also individually interprets the Bible, how then do you explain apostolic succession? Every single Priest today can trace his line back up to the Apostles themselves. Unless you have issue with the way they did things or what they believed, to deny the Church is to be disobedient to God. And we know how God rewards rebellion. Look at the fall of Lucifer. Now that said I am certainly not comparing you to Lucifer by any stretch. Nor am I saying you’re purposefully trying to rebel against God because your heart is clearly in the right place. And we are told God will judge our hearts. But at the same time you have been made aware of the importance of the sacraments (baptism especially). You can no longer claim ignorance when you stand before the Lord. Please do not let your pride get in the way of things here. Learn to let go of things and place your trust in God. Search for the answer with your heart if your mind is too clouded by presupposed ideas from who knows where. Baptism is absolutely essential to salvation. Do not deny yourself this milestone for growing closer with our Lord.

As for everyone else, I’m starting my first RCIA class this sunday. I’m both really excited and incredibly anxious. Any advice to help calm my anxiety about the class?

 

[wisdomseeker]

:bowdown::byzsoc::grouphug:

@Publisher I’ve only read a few pages of this debate but from what I’ve read of your responses all I see is “I believe this” or “I believe that” or “I reject that”. You have so much rebellion in your heart to the one Church literally built by the hands of Christ Himself. Please ask yourself (despite your own opinions) would Christ create the Catholic Church if He intended its sacraments to be invalid? Or its teaching flawed? And to answer to your charge that the Catholic Church also individually interprets the Bible, how then do you explain apostolic succession? Every single Priest today can trace his line back up to the Apostles themselves. Unless you have issue with the way they did things or what they believed, to deny the Church is to be disobedient to God. And we know how God rewards rebellion. Look at the fall of Lucifer. Now that said I am certainly not comparing you to Lucifer by any stretch. Nor am I saying you’re purposefully trying to rebel against God because your heart is clearly in the right place. And we are told God will judge our hearts. But at the same time you have been made aware of the importance of the sacraments (baptism especially). You can no longer claim ignorance when you stand before the Lord. Please do not let your pride get in the way of things here. Learn to let go of things and place your trust in God. Search for the answer with your heart if your mind is too clouded by presupposed ideas from who knows where. Baptism is absolutely essential to salvation. Do not deny yourself this milestone for growing closer with our Lord.

As for everyone else, I’m starting my first RCIA class this sunday. I’m both really excited and incredibly anxious. Any advice to help calm my anxiety about the class?

Heavens and Earth proclaims the Glory of God. Our Father is joyofull.

:byzsoc::angel1:

 

[wisdomseeker]

Allow me a manner of speaking. Only those who behold the Beatific Vision are Christians in the absolute sense. And, only Mary beholds the Beatific Vision in the most intimate sense. We Christian in our affinity to Mary.

Amen

:bowdown::byzsoc:

 

[wisdomseeker]

I believe that the stepping stones to holiness…is how we live and treat one another…life is sacramental…and this Sacrament has it’s “confection” in our world…the sacred and the secular come together in Jesus of Nazareth…that you find meaning in the established sacraments is wonderful…that you meet God in them is a blessing.

For me as a Friend…I find sacramental meaning and experience when the “sacraments” find their expression in my world…every meal shared has the potential for Christ to be Truly Present…every cup of water offered in his name is a “baptism”…every time our hands move to offer help and comfort the “sign of our faith” is made.

For me the “rituals” may be “empty”…if you find a fullness in them, who am I to tell you otherwise?

I have tried to explain a Quaker understanding of sacramental living…it is not meant to be offensive to your beliefs nor do I imply your spirituality is lacking in any way.

Publisher, we love you here. But you should substitute the pronoum I for Him, God.

2 Things we must realize, there is a God, and you are not Him.