It shouldn't be this hard to be Catholic

[JohnCarroll]

I don’t know where to begin. My wife and I are trying to be Catholic–coming over from the Episcopal Church.

As I see it, the purpose of the Church it bring us into a relationship with God. Everything it does and has is for that aim . We started out Evangelical. There we saw people who greatly loved God . They were so in love they wanted to tell everyone they could --perhaps to the point of being obnoxious. They were able to know each other well by fellowship and continuing education in small Sunday school classes.

The Episcopalians I knew had great beauty in worship. Their liturgy and prayer book are among the most inspired writing in the English language. Music that truly reflected the greatness of God. Not very good at what the Evangelicals were good at but superb at worship.

I am trying to be Catholic but no one sings the hymns at mass --and for good reason --they sound as though they were written by a sociologist–all about the assembly and nothing much about God. There is almost no chance to engage another Catholic in conversation much less speak to a holy Catholic and learn something. Our children are all grown now. I do not think I would be able to trust this institution to keep them in love with Jesus if they were still young.

I went to talk to the priest at our Parish to talk about this. He seemed very suspicious of Evangelism. We talked about Campus Crusade for Christ–the Evangelical organization on many campuses. He was quite angry about them . I can understand this --many Catholic youth have left the Church to join them . But he completely missed the reason. They left because they saw in the lives and faces of those kids something they did not have --for some reason --and had not seen in the Church.
They weren’t just converted to an new organization , they were truly converted-- to Jesus. Is this a good thing? Well, yes and no. Bad to leave but good to know Christ. It is better to stay in the Catholic Church . But what if they had? Would they have met Jesus? They had not so far. Why?
I believe the Catholic Church to have the fullness of the truth. I just don’t know if my faith can stand up to all the other crud it will have to put up with in day to day matters.

Help, anyone!

 

[mercygate]

JohnCarroll:

I believe the Catholic Church to have the fullness of the truth. I just don’t know if my faith can stand up to all the other crud it will have to put up with in day to day matters.

Help, anyone!

Heh, heh, heh. My story echoes yours, and I believe God is calling people like you (us) into the Church to rescue it from its complacency, to renew her spirit of exuberant love for Jesus, to reinvigorate the joy in her Magisterium! Take heart. The Church does have the fullness of truth. It’s worth putting up with “all the other crud!”

 

[drforjc]

There is almost no chance to engage another Catholic in conversation much less speak to a holy Catholic and learn something.

These people are out there, it’s just not always easy to pick them out from the crowd. (Not that that’s a good thing.) I have gotten to know some like-minded Catholics through such things as Eucharistic Adoration and other “extra curricular” activities (i.e. not at Sunday mass.)

 

[OhioBob]

JohnCarroll:

I don’t know where to begin. My wife and I are trying to be Catholic–coming over from the Episcopal Church… …Help, anyone!

First of all, welcome home. :tiphat:

I can relate to much of what you are saying. While I am not a convert, I guess you could call me a “revert”. I was raised Catholic but drifted quite a bit afield during my younger days.

I guess my counsel would be not to give up on the truth just because of some less than ideal parish experiences and less than enthusiastic Catholics. Speaking from my own experiences most adult Catholics today are poorly catechised and don’t really understand much about their faith - certainly not enough to be effective apologists and evangelists. But please don’t judge their sincerity by how enthusiastically they sing or how effectively they can witness to their faith.

There were many years during which I could not really explain much about my Catholic beliefs. But I knew in my heart what I believed. It was only through personal study that I understood what I had never been taught and came to a full understanding of the truths that are Catholicism.

As far as Mass experiences - there are some parishes doing some unusual things, and many that may appear cold, aloof and uninvolved in their liturgy. But there are also many who are just the opposite. If you haven’t found the parish community that provides the support and environment that you are looking for, please don’t stop looking. They are out there.

Let the truths of the faith support you while you seek the day to day environment that is right for you. Christ said that the gates of hell would not prevail against the Church. Take him at his word.

Good luck.

And maybe you can find Catholics to talk to and learn from on these forums (not me though, I am a learner, not a teacher).

By the way, I share your opinion about many hymns (if you can call them that) used in Catholic liturgy. Yuck.

 

[enanneman]

Greetings and peace be with you!

I am trying to break apart your post to better understand your question. It seems that you are concerned that the church is not as evangelistic as other institutions and that you find the mass lacking in its selection of music. Am I correct?

I know, personally, that I find it very difficult to evangelize to people simply because as soon as I start mentioning religion, peoples’ hackles get raised, and for good reason, when I consider how many times people have asked me if I’ve “accepted Jesus Christ as my personal Lord and savior.” It seems like the only way I can evangelize is to simply live the purest life I can, be the best Catholic possible and be open when people ask me about the faith.

Also, I’d add that it seems like the desires of certain Protestant sects have succeeded at their aim of beating down the Catholic church. How many Protestants have heard from their pulpit of all the abuses of the Catholic church and all their misapplication of scripture and generation of novel, nonscriptual beliefs and dogmas? These negative and hostile attitudes have, in my opinion, driven a lot of Catholics inward–to take a defensive posture. I think we’ve only recently rediscovered evangelization through Catholic apologetics, but it’s hard to overcome centuries of derision.

Finally, I’d offer two responses to your concern about the mass. The first, I say with all Christian love. I can certainly understand the appeal of other, more evangelistic, denominations that offer services that are more like pep rallies. It’s a great feeling to be emotionally charged up after a service like that. But, that’s not what the mass is for. The mass, IMHO, is for us to worship God and feed our spiritual souls, not for us to be entertained. The second response is that if you see a need, please, use your talents to serve. There are so many lessons we cradle Catholic can learn from our convert brothers and sisters! Please, share what you have learned!

Peace, and the love of Christ be with you and yours!

Eric

 

[Della]

First off, welcome to the Catholic Church! From what you’ve written I take it that the teachings of the Church are what drew you to her. The same can be said of many of us here, including me. And btw, I too converted from Evangelicalism (Pentecostal) back to Episcopalian (I had been baptized and confirmed in the ECUSA but left for the Assemblies of God in my teens–a long story!). And from Episcopalian to Catholic in 1987.

All the objectionable things you cited, JohnCarroll are certainly true about the modern Church in America. Many of our Catholic parishes are going through an awkward stage in which the liturgy has been coopted by those trying to “make it more relevant to modern sensibilities”. Frankly, I think they have failed miserably, which is evidenced by the lack of enthusiastic participation in these parishes. All this shows, oddly enough, that the Catholic Church is a living, breathing body not just a monolithic set of beliefs writ in stone. We will pass through this stage of liturgical and musical experimentation to see a restoration of what is good and beneficial in these areas. Considering some of the truly terrible things the Church has endured and survived down through the centuries, this newest episode will fade away and become just another attempt by the world, the flesh, and the devil to defeat Christ’s Church, which cannot ever be ultimately defeated by these forces.

I agree that there often isn’t much to keep young people interested or challenged or inspired in our modern parishes. Many programs have been intitiated, some better than others, to meet this need. But, what is needed is a return to honoring the great Saints of the Church who are role models for our young people of what they can accomplish through faith in Christ. It’s a pity that when we have a pope who has canonized more saints than any other pope in history our parishes all but ignore the saints in their daily liturgies nor talk them up as they once did.

Also, enthusiasm is a good thing, but young people need more than to feel good about Jesus to have a deep and lasting relationship with him. That is where good catechises should come in, and that starts in the home. Parishes should be doing all they can to help parents teach their children about the truths and beauty of the faith, but in the end it is really up to parents to be the primary teachers of faith for their children.

Anyway, welcome again and God bless you and yours!

 

[Nana_Rose]

Hi there, and welcome home. I am with you all the way on this one! I am a ‘cradle Catholic’ and I guess you could say a ‘revert’ too. My own personal journey led me right back home. No matter how lively or friendly the people were there was always an ache, something missing. It was our Lord in the Holy Eucharist. I do believe there are a lot of us out there who would agree…and I agree with an earlier poster, don’t leave the one true church. But I do believe Christ is calling us and showing us that we need to be that salt and light to those around us, in and out of the church. It is disheartening to say the least to go to mass and be on fire, and look around and wonder if people are alive or what? But really the focus is forward and up, to honor and give glory to God. I think there is a movement in this country to get back to basics of faith and maybe we need to pray for an outpouring of the Holy Spirit. Don’t lose hope. Some parishes are better than others, but maybe Christ wants you to inject some fire in yours!

 

[JohnCarroll]

Thanks to everyone for responding,
I guess in boiling down my long post, what I am asking is this: Granting that the Church has the fullness of the truth, what good is it if that truth, lived out, can not inspire on Sunday, provide a teacher, make itself known in a sermon, move me to evangelize, or introduce a child to Jesus? I have not been at this very long . Will I see these things as I am at it longer?

This is why this forum has been so important to me. How could we have discussed these things together in our individual parishes?

Todays Church is like the poor daughter of a once rich and cultured family. She works night and day just to keep up and has no time for friendship , and little use of that former beauty.

 

[sparkle]

I too have been in the Episcopal Church for about the past 8 years or so. People are soo friendly, really concerned folks, liturgy and music beautiful, good youth programs, etc.

I struggle with this as well, being that I have young sons, here. I’m in RCIA right now, hubby and sons not.

I do feel that I have truly found the True Church and yes, it needs some revival. We need to turn our parishes into sincere Christ-centered places. You can be instrumental with this friend, just like I can. God needs US.

WE, need to get involved to do this. You and me.

We can’t turn elsewhere. It is up to us.

I know when I’m a full-fledged Catholic, I’m going to help with the youth of the Church as I feel this is vital.

God Bless~ Don’t lost hope. God is present~~

 

[mercygate]

JohnCarroll:

Thanks to everyone for responding,
I guess in boiling down my long post, what I am asking is this: Granting that the Church has the fullness of the truth, what good is it if that truth, lived out, can not inspire on Sunday, provide a teacher, make itself known in a sermon, move me to evangelize, or introduce a child to Jesus? I have not been at this very long . Will I see these things as I am at it longer?

This is why this forum has been so important to me. How could we have discussed these things together in our individual parishes?

Todays Church is like the poor daughter of a once rich and cultured family. She works night and day just to keep up and has no time for friendship , and little use of that former beauty.

I liken the Catholic experience to being finally admitted into the big manor up on the hill only to discover that everyone who lives there is huddled around a grungy stove in the kitchen, eating cold pizza off paper plates while upstairs, the dining rooms and ballrooms are empty, the silver stands tarnished, dusty and unused, and the library is inhabited only by mice.

John Carroll: Think of yourself as part of the SOLUTION! But give yourself a break. Take your time in prayer and allow yourself to receive the graces you will be given during this time. God is calling you to this place now for a reason. Take heart.

 

[Della]

JohnCarroll:

Thanks to everyone for responding,
I guess in boiling down my long post, what I am asking is this: Granting that the Church has the fullness of the truth, what good is it if that truth, lived out, can not inspire on Sunday, provide a teacher, make itself known in a sermon, move me to evangelize, or introduce a child to Jesus? I have not been at this very long . Will I see these things as I am at it longer?

Well, Catholics aren’t as demonstrative about their faith as some other Protestant denoms are. This is because we internalize our faith more and our worship isn’t dependent on our “getting something” out of it. When we go to Mass we go to offer God worship and praise while receiving him in word and Sacrament according to a set pattern of liturgy. Hardly a scenerio for hallelujah shouting, clapping of hands and stomping of feet, is it! Ha! We do not know what is happening in the hearts of fellow worshipers. We can only be sure that our hearts are open as we participate in the life of the Church.

This is why this forum has been so important to me. How could we have discussed these things together in our individual parishes?

Yes, it is good to be able to talk about these things with people who understand what we have experienced and who are willing to express their thoughts.

Todays Church is like the poor daughter of a once rich and cultured family. She works night and day just to keep up and has no time for friendship , and little use of that former beauty.

That’s true enough. But we can bring back her culture and splendor by our faithfulness and by participating in the life of the parish by joining things like the liturgy committee or voicing our approval of what we see that is good while letting what is less good go by the wayside. We have to be as wise as serpents and as harmless as doves in our efforts to bring back to our parishes the beauty and depth of spirituality we wish them to have. That’s all I can say except that I am sure this too shall pass and there will be a restoration of all that is true and good in the very near future. So hang in there and pray, pray, pray!

 

[JohnCarroll]

Allright, Here is a poser. We can all agree that the Church has her problems. If the purpose of the church is to bring people into relationship with the Lord, and is in various places not doing a very good job of that , are Catholics ever justified in going elsewhere? You will say no , but what if the Gospel in those places has not been preached, the Children are being lost , the Congregation does not have Love one for another?

Or more to the point why should a person (me) leave a place which has better help spritually, and go to a place that is in almost every way worse for his soul?

The Lord says, I am an adult now - it is time to help.
OK, Lord.

 

[Catholic4aReasn]

JohnCarroll:

Thanks to everyone for responding,
I guess in boiling down my long post, what I am asking is this: Granting that the Church has the fullness of the truth, what good is it if that truth, lived out, can not inspire on Sunday, provide a teacher, make itself known in a sermon, move me to evangelize, or introduce a child to Jesus? I have not been at this very long . Will I see these things as I am at it longer?

What good are inspiration on Sunday, providing teachers, or moving one to evangelize if one doesn’t have the fullness of truth?

In Christ,
Nancy

 

[Catholic4aReasn]

sparkle:

I too have been in the Episcopal Church for about the past 8 years or so. People are soo friendly, really concerned folks, liturgy and music beautiful, good youth programs, etc.

I struggle with this as well, being that I have young sons, here. I’m in RCIA right now, hubby and sons not.

I do feel that I have truly found the True Church and yes, it needs some revival. We need to turn our parishes into sincere Christ-centered places. You can be instrumental with this friend, just like I can. God needs US.

WE, need to get involved to do this. You and me.

We can’t turn elsewhere. It is up to us.

I know when I’m a full-fledged Catholic, I’m going to help with the youth of the Church as I feel this is vital.

God Bless~ Don’t lost hope. God is present~~

Good for you!!! It’s really important that dull parishes are about the individual parishes, not about the Catholic Church. The dullness of individual parishes has no effect on the truth of what the Church teaches. I agree that you need to get involved. If something is missing maybe you’re just the person that’s needed.

In Christ,
Nancy

 

[Catholic4aReasn]

Della:

Well, Catholics aren’t as demonstrative about their faith as some other Protestant denoms are. This is because we internalize our faith more and our worship isn’t dependent on our “getting something” out of it. When we go to Mass we go to offer God worship and praise while receiving him in word and Sacrament according to a set pattern of liturgy. Hardly a scenerio for hallelujah shouting, clapping of hands and stomping of feet, is it! Ha! We do not know what is happening in the hearts of fellow worshipers. We can only be sure that our hearts are open as we participate in the life of the Church.

I agree! Our Protestant brothers and sisters seem to believe that one only got something out of their service of one had particular feelings about it. To be sure, spiritual growth is sometimes accompanied by feelings, but it isn’t necessarily accompanied by feelings. The line “I wasn’t being fed” really means “I wasn’t experiencing great emotion”. I truly believe that many are missing out on so much because they only pursue that which makes them feel a certain way.

In Christ,
Nancy

 

[Catholic4aReasn]

JohnCarroll:

Allright, Here is a poser. We can all agree that the Church has her problems. If the purpose of the church is to bring people into relationship with the Lord, and is in various places not doing a very good job of that , are Catholics ever justified in going elsewhere? You will say no , but what if the Gospel in those places has not been preached, the Children are being lost , the Congregation does not have Love one for another?

Or more to the point why should a person (me) leave a place which has better help spritually, and go to a place that is in almost every way worse for his soul?

The Lord says, I am an adult now - it is time to help.
OK, Lord.

Hi John!

The idea that the purpose of the church is to bring people into a relationship with the Lord is incomplete. The purpose of the church is also to bring people to a knowledge of the truth. If one parish isn’t meeting your needs it’s fine to find another that may do a better job, but it’s not OK to leave for another denomination because that person will be trading the truth for feelings. Since it’s the truth that sets us free, not feelings, we need to always be where the truth is.

In Christ,
Nancy

 

[JGC]

A few thoughts as a child presbyterian, adult episcopalian now Catholic.

Parishes vary wildly in both Anglicanism and Catholicism I have found. It was when I went working abroad I found Anglican churches might be in communion, bu they didn’t believe the same things! Catholic Churches share the same faith, it’s just some may have ‘better’ liturgy than others, or have a more enthusiastic congregation, or more active groups etc etc. Some of these types of things are a matter of taste. I was in a town nearby and went to mass on a Sunday. It was like being in a ‘happy clappy’ church in terms of signing and atmosphere. Not my cup of tea at all but the Lord was there in the Eucharist and we celebrated our common faith. That’s what matters. It was packed as well so must be doing something right for these people!

Evangelism. It is rare to convince someone at work or in the street of the truth of Christianity through a preaching or intellectual process. (though I’m sure it happens). A priest once said in a homily that it is our lives as Christians that will shine to others and that they hopefully will think ‘I would like to be like that’ and then they will approach the Church to learn the faith.

As St John Chrysostom said

There would be no need for sermons, if our lives were shining; there would be no need for words, if we bore witness with our deeds. There would be no pagans, if we were true Christians.
St. John Chrysostom

I’m lucky, well the main reason we bought a house where we did was because of the parish, as the parish has a holy priest, packed masses, friendly community, youth groups (114 at one meeting), prayer group, great liturgy etc, etc.

So if the parish you attend really isn’t doing it for you it may be you could look elsewhere, or as another poster said, you may be being called to help revitalise that one. Pray for discernment!

Hope his helps.

 

[jrabs]

Nana Rose:

But I do believe Christ is calling us and showing us that we need to be that salt and light to those around us, in and out of the church. It is disheartening to say the least to go to mass and be on fire, and look around and wonder if people are alive or what?

Don’t lose hope. Some parishes are better than others, but maybe Christ wants you to inject some fire in yours!

Oh, wise words Nana Rose.

John,
I went to a church for 5 years and found the music incredibly lively, happy, upbeat. The parish was filled with social folks, young families and overflowing - very few elderly. But then I started my re-version journey and really dissecting the homily - listening to the folks after mass at coffee hour, etc. Sent my boys through sacramental instruction at this parish with heart and mind opened.

Know what I was shown? The focus of the mass was moving toward music - there was always music playing even during the Consecration. They put a show on each week. The homily was always soft - no messages about sin, confession, or wrongs. I do not remember once in 5 years that abortion was ever talked about or any other serious topics that cut into today’s culture…gay marriage, euthanasia, hell, mortal sin. There is not ONE crucifix, icon, statue, or religious looking item in the church. The cross on the alter was a wooden cross form void of Christ. The tabernacle had been moved to a room and few acknowledged this room. Not even the Stations of the Cross were recognizable - just 14 clay slabs on the wall.

The Holy Spirit put it on my heart to switch parishes - and this was one of the first tasks he had me do in my re-version.

So, I guess my point in this all is to pray for the Holy Spirit to place you where He wants. Music, social goings on, personality of the priest may not be all that is cracked up to be. It may not be the best place for your soul.

God bless you in your journey. May you be open to listening to the Spirit.

 

[lefthand36]

My dear JohnCarroll,

Oh my! This southerner could not agree more with you. Why does it have to be soooo hard to be Catholic. I joined the Catholic church just this year after being Lutheran for 14 years. I visited the Reformed Episcopal Church with conservative views for about a year. The protestant religions have a great love for Christ. They truly do. The more I question where I should be, I often wonder if I wasn’t better off where I was.

Have you ever considered the Anglican Catholic Church. They have the most conservative views that I have ever seen, but yet they believe that the central part of worship is the Eucharist.

I am seriously considering this congregation because I believe the Vatican II has brought terrible problems to the church, and acceptence of things God would not want. In Mississippia, I may not be as lucky as you are. There are only two Anglican Catholic Churches in Mississippi. On your search engine type in the Anglican Catholic Church (ACC). They still use the 1928 Edition of the Book of Common Prayer. This may be the best option for you. I am seriously considering this church, even though it is 2 hours away.

No one can understand more than I can. What has happened to conservative views? God expects them!

God bless,
lefthand36
Brenda

 

[JGC]

lefthand36:

My dear JohnCarroll,

Oh my! This southerner could not agree more with you. Why does it have to be soooo hard to be Catholic. I joined the Catholic church just this year after being Lutheran for 14 years. I visited the Reformed Episcopal Church with conservative views for about a year. The protestant religions have a great love for Christ. They truly do. The more I question where I should be, I often wonder if I wasn’t better off where I was.

Have you ever considered the Anglican Catholic Church. They have the most conservative views that I have ever seen, but yet they believe that the central part of worship is the Eucharist.

I am seriously considering this congregation because I believe the Vatican II has brought terrible problems to the church, and acceptence of things God would not want. In Mississippia, I may not be as lucky as you are. There are only two Anglican Catholic Churches in Mississippi. On your search engine type in the Anglican Catholic Church (ACC). They still use the 1928 Edition of the Book of Common Prayer. This may be the best option for you. I am seriously considering this church, even though it is 2 hours away.

No one can understand more than I can. What has happened to conservative views? God expects them!

God bless,
lefthand36
Brenda

They are Anglican, not Catholic

I’m sure they do cracking liturgy as High Church Anglo Catholics, but as I know too well (see my post above), that’s only part of the picture…