Italian Minister Accuses Holland of “Nazism” for Euthanasia Laws

[Flopfoot]

As far as I’m aware, you stop / draw the line when the medication is being administered in order to kill rather than to relieve pain - it is the intent that counts, and the fact that while pain medication may hasten death, it is not killing someone outright.

Any dose of pain relieving medication could possibly hasten a terminally ill person’s death. But that doesn’t mean we withhold it from them completely.

However, there’s a big difference between ‘necessary’ pain medication (ie, enough so that they are not in pain, and no more, and never so much that it would kill them outright) and deliberately giving someone a lethal dose of anything (or killing them by other means).

Others can probably explain it better than me. Bottom line - palliative care is licit. Euthanasia is not.

 

[Eileen_T]

Higher doses of pain control are licit as long as the intention is to control the pain, even if a side effect is to hasten death. It is when the intention is to cause death in order to stop the pain that it is murder.

5) Again the doctor needs to increase the doses, but at a certain point this higher doses will kill the patient.

Paul, you need to read about the Doctrine of Double Effect. It is quite clear teaching and is NOT euthanasia/murder.

The crucial factor is what is in the mind of the doctor who administers the pain medication. He/she will ultimately have to answer to God for the decisions they made and the motives behind what they did. This will mean the difference of where they spend Eternity.

NO-ONE has the right to ask a doctor to put their eternal soul in jeopardy of eternal damnation in order to deliberately end a life. Especially in this day and age when we have so many methods of pain relief available to the EDUCATED medical profession. Ignorance is no excuse.

 

[paul_post]

Thanks everybody.
I think the last part of the communication discribes the situation which is valid in The Netherlands. Maybe the only thing that creates “doubts” is that there is an open communication about it in our country just to get it out of the dark.
Practice is equal to what happens in other (Western) countries.

Just some background before it starts all over again.
I lost my father 30 years ago because he was suffering cancer. He was told he had only a maximum of 1 year to live. As he was very religious he wanted to go the Lourdes (France), a place he always wanted to visit, to pray to God and Maria for a painless death. We left approx. 3 month after it was told he had that max. of 1 year but he died a painless death in Lourdes during our stay.
Doctors told us it was not to be expected this would happen.
Since than this topic we discuss about has my interest and my son became a doctor.
I hope you understand why I needed to react on this insane accuse of that Italian Minister.

 

[Cristiano]

paul_post:

I hope you understand why I needed to react on this insane accuse of that Italian Minister.

I think that that the accusation was not “insane” at all. He spoke well of the issue, the only problem is that he pushed a sensitive button of the Dutch culture about everything that is German and especially associated with nazism.

 

[paul_post]

I think you missed the important part of my last posting:

“I think the last part of the communication discribes the situation which is valid in The Netherlands. Maybe the only thing that creates “doubts” is that there is an open communication about it in our country just to get it out of the dark.
Practice is equal to what happens in other (Western) countries.”

 

[Eileen_T]

paul_post:

Practice is equal to what happens in other (Western) countries."

If it was practiced in EVERY other country that still wouldn’t make it right. What is right or wrong is not a matter of public consensus and can’t be mandated by majority opinion.

Sin is sin and those who do sin will face God’s Justice if they don’t repent and seek His Mercy.

 

[paul_post]

Again this quote is taken out of the total message (my query and my question “Where do you stop”).
This is not talking about sin. It is the day to day situation happening all over the world. People do not murder their relatives in the example I gave, so no question about sin.
But I really understand what you mean. This issue should be handled with care, but to be honest with you and taking my example as where I am referring to, it is my opinion that everybody involved in the described situation has the best in mind for the person involved and is only carring about the relative/patient in such a way and handles within the ethics. This resulting in facing Him with a clear consience.

 

[Rosalinda]

Our Catholic Register has published two letters to the editor recently in Canada decrying an editorial which exposed Holland’s liberal laws on euthanasia which Canada is considering adopting. It is disturbing that the Dutch do not know what is happening in their own homeland; disturbing because many ordinary citizens excused themselves of any culpability claiming ignorance of the widespread atrocities. Given the communication technology we have today few people who can credibly claim ignorance as the ugly head of eugenic euthanasia raises itself again; in point of fact, there is such a thing as deliberate, culpable ignorance. While there may be interesting parallels between Holland and Nazi Germany with obvious points of divergence it is still the same package of lies rewrapped by the devil and cunningly presented. The lie is some people are more worthy of life than others.

There are scores of resources I would suggest paul_post read. A search in LifeSiteNews is a good place to start.
lifesite.net/ldn/2006/jan/06011607.html

 

[paul_post]

There is a good sentence in the bible…“the one without sin throws the first stone” (translated out of Dutch but I think you understand).
Terrible message and how can someone write this. Full of anger and full of disrespect.
Well if we play it like this, we can go ahead.
Let’s assume you are right what about this statement:

In The Netherlands people are killed (…not my statement…) by people from The Netherlands but for reasons of humanity
In Iraq and other parts of the world innocent people are killed by people of other countries for political reasons.
The last catagory is supported by people complaining about the first catagory…hypocrite don’t you think?? And the people re-elect the responsible persons for a second term of 4 years to finish the job…(ahh,no problem this are only moslims…).
Given the communication technology we have today few people who can credibly claim ignorance.

Pointing the finger to someone else, still leave 4 fingers pointing to yourself.
I know some people feel abused by this, but just read through the whole posting on this topic and you know why. If you feel you do not belong to the catagory, than consider it is not you who I had in mind

 

[Rosalinda]

Paul_post, A couple of clarifications to my last post which was interrupted before proofreading. I was referring to the excuses made by ordinary citizens after WWII and the line you lifted should have read: “Given the communication technology we have today, few people can credibly claim ignorance as the ugly head of eugenic euthanasia raises itself again; in point of fact, there is such a thing as deliberate, culpable ignorance.” My apologies if my carelessness has caused any misunderstanding.

As for your remarks concerning the war in Iraq you are off topic, besides of which, accidental war casualties, however lamentable, are not the moral equivalent of intentional murder of defenseless children which is the topic of this thread. The fact that the Groningen Protocol stipulates parental consent does not lessen what remains an intrinsic moral disorder.

The following is a statement by archbishop Sgreccia of the Pontifical Academy for Life on this issue, “Legalizing euthanasia for children in the Netherlands”.*

---

The dignity of the sick person’s pain aside and the value of solidarity that innocent suffering raises, should pain and suffering be treated by recourse to the violence of inducing premature death?
We should think seriously about the possible appearance of a kind of "social Darwinism" that is intended to facilitate the elimination of human beings burdened by suffering or defects, all in order to “anaesthetize” the whole of society. Darwin himself held that building hospitals for the insane, the disabled and the sick and passing laws for the support of the poverty-stricken were obstacles to human evolution (cf. C. Darwin, *The Descent of Man and Selection in Relation to Sex [1871], *cited in J.C. Guillebaud, *Le principe d’humanité, *Editions du Seuil, 2001, p. 368), because such an attitude on the part of society would prevent or delay the natural elimination of defective persons.
It is not for nothing that certain commentators, also non-medical, have recently been reported in the newspapers as speaking of “eugenics in disguise”, with reference to this latest development in Dutch law concerning euthanasia.

vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_academies/acdlife/documents/rc_pont-acd_life_doc_20040903_euthanasia-netherlands_en.html

 

[paul_post]

The source mentioned is of course pointing in the direction you think is the right one. No problem with that. I respect everybodies opinion , and also in this topic. But just take the time and read through the complete posting. I think you will see that everybody accusses without trying to imagine what is really the point. No it is murder and it stays murder…When I just give you a sideway and tell that the same people accusing this subject, accept the murdering in their name of innocent people, than it is not here to discuss. It is for me to narrow minded.
I am glad that He will judge over this topic and the intentions why, and not the narrow minded people following strictly written rules (by people and not by Him) and keep other persons living in mssery for years, tapping therr hands and telling: “Yes, you are in pain but bare it for Him as he expect this from you”.
How do you know??? Did He tell you that and when??? And please do not quote for writings in certain books, these are written by people and not by Him.
And also the classification of “sin”…who is giving this classification??? Who can judge, besides Him???
You ant others do not accept an open discussion. You are right and I am wrong and it stays that way.
It is a pitty (for them suffering…).

 

[Rosalinda]

paul_post, Your understanding of Catholic teaching on suffering is distorted. The late great JPII wrote an entire encyclical on the meaning of human suffering. The following quotation also from JPII, entitled, “Evangelium Vitae” addresses your plea for compassion.

Even when not motivated by a selfish refusal to be burdened with the life of someone who is suffering,** euthanasia must be called a false mercy,** and indeed a disturbing “perversion” of mercy. True “compassion” leads to sharing another’s pain; it does not kill the person whose suffering we cannot bear. Moreover, the act of euthanasia appears all the more perverse if it is carried out by those, like relatives, who are supposed to treat a family member with patience and love, or by those, such as doctors, who by virtue of their specific profession are supposed to care for the sick person even in the most painful terminal stages.

The choice of euthanasia becomes more serious when it takes the form of a murder committed by others on a person who has in no way requested it and who has never consented to it. The height of arbitrariness and injustice is reached when certain people, such as physicians or legislators, arrogate to themselves the power to decide who ought to live and who ought to die. Once again we find ourselves before the temptation of Eden: to become like God who “knows good and evil” (cf. Gen 3:5). God alone has the power over life and death: “It is I who bring both death and life” (Dt 32:39; cf. 2 Kg 5:7; 1 Sam 2:6). But he only exercises this power in accordance with a plan of wisdom and love. When man usurps this power, being enslaved by a foolish and selfish way of thinking, he inevitably uses it for injustice and death. Thus the life of the person who is weak is put into the hands of the one who is strong; in society the sense of justice is lost, and mutual trust, the basis of every authentic interpersonal relationship, is undermined at its root.

vatican.va/edocs/ENG0141/__PR.HTM

 

[Rosalinda]

Correction on that last posting. John Paul II wrote an apostolic letter on the meaning of human suffering called “Salvifici Doloris” in 1984, not an encyclical.

vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/apost_letters/documents/hf_jp-ii_apl_11021984_salvifici-doloris_en.html

Originally posted by Paul_post

How do you know??? Did He tell you that and when??? And please do not quote for writings in certain books, these are written by people and not by Him.

JPII walked the talk. How do Catholics know that euthanasia is wrong? We know because we believe in God and in all He has said and revealed to us, and everything that the Holy Church proposes for our belief, because He is truth itself. If anyone has trouble believing Jesus left the keys of the kingdom with Peter he has only to read the writings of JPII to be convinced he spoke for Him who is the Truth, the Light and the Way. His writings have had a dramatic impact on my life and I have only scratched the surface!

Paul_post, I don’t need God to speak directly to me; I have His word as spoken in the bible and as passed down through the church He founded; as a Catholic I receive His life in the sacraments. What are you waiting for? Do you expect God to speak directly to you before you will submit to His laws? Are you prepared to give the power of life and death to men? Do you have such faith in the intelligence, wisdom and compassion of men that you would be willing to let them put you down like a dog should you ever become incapacitated and no longer “worthy of life”?

Furthermore, would demand the life of your own child be terminated should it be born, for example, with missing limbs? Euthanasia for infants is more properly called infanticide. At what point would you say: “This child I will keep but that one should be destroyed”? What if the Dutch government offered an incentive and penalty program to reward families with healthy children and to penalize families who chose to keep their sick children? Would you allow other parents to receive medical benefts knowing your tax dollars contribute to their welfare? How long do you think it would be before the choice to end the life of a frail, suffering child would become the duty to end it? Yes, this is the slippery slope argument that Eileen already posted earlier.

In the final analysis, either all human life is respected as sacred or the lives of everyone will eventually be weighed for worth on a utilitarian scale by a bureaucrat with his foot on it for added measure. No Paul_, this issue is not so narrow as you define it: a private decision of the family and physicians. Doctors make mistakes every day and so do parents. Our lives are in God’s hands and there they belong.

 

[Eileen_T]

In the small town I previously lived in a young couple were informed, following an ultrasound, that their first child had no arms and no legs. They were advised to kill the child in utero as is so often the case these days.

This courageous young couple said that life was sacred and it was up to God to decide when it was a person’s time to die. Their little boy was gathered into the extended family and the whole town - with the usual few exceptions - have supported them.

Their little boy is intelligent. He moves around by rolling in the direction he wants to go and asks for what he wants. He has cousins who think he is just so special and amazing and later, he will probably have brothers and sisters who will always be there for him.

Yesterday, I went to visit my family to celebrate my youngest sister’s birthday. Also present was my youngest living brother who happens to have Downs Syndrome. As always, he was the life of the party. He is quite clever and has a delightful sense of humour.

When he was born - before ultrasound technology - my parents were given the worst-case scenario for his life and advised to put him in an institution. They declined thank God. He is the joy of our lives.

These days people with Downs Syndrome are no longer hidden away in Institutions - they are murdered in the womb before they can be born.

In New Zealand, our main organisation for the disabled is headed by a man who has cerebral palsy. He finds it hard to have a conversation unless he can use a computer to do so. I have met him and he is a very intelligent man who enjoys life. He told me that his mother was advised to have an abortion and that he is grateful to her that she did not do so.

When I look at someone like Stephen Hawking, I am awed by the way people with disabilities can derived so much enjoyment from life. Who the hell gives abled-bodied persons the right to make the decision that babies (or older persons) with disabilities would be better off dead.

 

[paul_post]

Rosalinda:

What if the Dutch government offered an incentive and penalty program to reward families with healthy children and to penalize families who chose to keep their sick children? Would you allow other parents to receive medical benefts knowing your tax dollars contribute to their welfare? How long do you think it would be before the choice to end the life of a frail, suffering child would become the duty to end it? Yes, this is the slippery slope argument that Eileen already posted earlier.
.

Sorry, I cannot continue posting if these kind of things are written. A Government offering an incentive and penalty program…It is obvious that you are not at all well informed about this and what is going on in The Netherlands.
Statistics (trusted ones) is maybe a good start point to compare the situation in the countries worldwide.
But I keep missing the answers from you on my questionaire. I do not see any answer on “where do you stop”.
An additional question to you: “Do you support the death-penalty?”

 

[anna1978]

Paul, I’ve been reading this discussion and -as an ex-Dutch national- let me say this to you : I don’t think anybody who isn’t Dutch or has lived there for any length of time (in my case 26 years) will understand the ‘Dutch Mindset’, nor understand that even most Catholics in the Netherlands feel that way, that to let somebody suffer ‘pointlessly’ is not loving, is not right…To foreigners it really must seem like the Dutch make these laws to kill off their young, old, infirm, handicapped…and nothing you will say will help anybody understand what really goes on in the consciences of most Dutch people. Doesn’t mean I agree with you, but I do know that what you’re trying to say here is genuine. There is too much of a cultural devide to cross for you here. I don’t know if you are a Catholic yourself, but I often joke ‘Dutch Catholics are different’…Cardinal Simonis was a youth-friend of my late-mother and when I converted he wrote me a beautiful letter, in which he welcomed me into the ‘Roman Catholic church, but most importantly: the Dutch Catholic community’…God knows he was given a hard time everytime he went to Rome, but in the end even Pope John Paul II warmed to his sincerity in the end…even if they had to ‘agree-to-disagree’ on most matters. I do think though that even our Pope understood that we weren’t all ‘heathens’, just Catholics who had different views of the world, and of what it meant to be a ‘good Catholic’. As I said, I may not agree with what you are saying, but that’s because I’ve left Holland 9 years ago and have hardly been baack, so I stopped thinking as a Dutch person But, I do remember it well

Anna x

 

[Rosalinda]

Originally posted by Paul_

Sorry, I cannot continue posting if these kind of things are written. A Government offering an incentive and penalty program…It is obvious that you are not at all well informed about this and what is going on in The Netherlands.

You have quoted the above statement out of context. You were being asked how far you would allow your country to slide into the culture of death. Holland has been at this for a long time and the situation has degraded; it will degrade further; maybe to the point of incentive programs. Such a suggestion is not far-fetched as the population controllers offered incentives and penalties to entire villages in India. Neighours spied on and betrayed one another. While private citizens may believe in euthanasia for “compassionate” reasons; the state endorses it for utilitarian reasons.

As for your protest, no one is answering your questions, they have been answered. It is my impression, and forgive me if I am mistaken, you have not studied the links provided for you to the writings of JPII and Sgreccia or you would have found the answers. (If you have difficulty understanding English the Vatican website provides numerous languages from which to choose.) Eileen has provided you an excellent link giving the historical context.

Anyone whose conscience allows for this perversion of compassion called euthanasia has a malformed, uninformed conscience which has been poisoned by the propaganda of the right to die movement. Spiritual reading, which includes studying the catechism of the Catholic Church and the numerous writings of the Pope on this subject will prove an effective antidote. It is a fruitless effort to lead someone to the fontain of everlasting life if they refuse to drink from it.

 

[Rosalinda]

After about 18 months of public discussion of its new draft bill, in late 2000 the Dutch government introduced its proposal to legalise euthanasia into the Second Chamber of the parliament, where it passed easily. It was introduced into the First Chamber in early 2001, where it also easily passed, and was then proclaimed. Its provisions include:

1. 
   *]Euthanasia must be performed in accordance with ‘careful medical practice’, that is, the previously listed official guidelines are to continue to be observed. (These have not been altered, despite their often miserable public record in practice).
   *]All cases will be evaluated by a legally constituted regional review committee, composed of a lawyer, a doctor, an ethicist and others.
   *]Euthanasia and assisted suicide will not be punishable if carried out by a doctor who has complied with the guidelines, and reported it to a local medical examiner.
   *]After satisfying himself that the required procedures had been carried out, the examiner is to send his report to the regional committee and to the prosecutor.
   *]Children between 12 and 16 must normally have their parents’ consent before they may request euthanasia. However, in ‘exceptional’ cases — those involving serious and incurable disease or intolerable and unrelenting suffering — a doctor may agree to such a child’s request even without parental request. Requests by children aged 16 -17 do not require parental consent, though parents should be involved in decision making.
   *]Competent patients may request euthanasia, by way of an advance directive, to be later consulted in the event that they have become incompetent.

1. 
   catholiceducation.org/articles/euthanasia/eu0021.html
   
   If the information in this article, Current Euthanasia Laws in the Netherlands is wrong kindly set us straight.

 

[paul_post]

“Anyone whose conscience allows for this perversion of compassion called euthanasia has a malformed, uninformed conscience which has been poisoned by the propaganda of the right to die movement.”

You are judging again and again and I accept only one to judge me and others on this topic and I do stop here. This is useless and I prefer to be judged by Him at the end. I have good faith that He understands what is really going on.

 

[Pondero]

anna1978:

Paul, I’ve been reading this discussion and -as an ex-Dutch national- let me say this to you : I don’t think anybody who isn’t Dutch or has lived there for any length of time (in my case 26 years) will understand the ‘Dutch Mindset’, nor understand that even most Catholics in the Netherlands feel that way, that to let somebody suffer ‘pointlessly’ is not loving, is not right…To foreigners it really must seem like the Dutch make these laws to kill off their young, old, infirm, handicapped…and nothing you will say will help anybody understand what really goes on in the consciences of most Dutch people.
Anna x

Contrast the Dutch mindset with that of Dr.Balfour Mount the founder of palliative care in Canada.
Mount explained that quality of life is not something to be judged based on our health but rather our wholeness. He stated that two thirds of cancer patients assessed their quality of life as excellent and people with serious disabilities have life satisfaction ratios similar to the general population…
Mount said, that suffering is subjective and personal. Suffering is experienced by whole persons not simply by bodies. Suffering can present a paradox. A person may have pain but no suffering, or no pain but incredible suffering. Suffering is often existential or connected to spiritual pain… (From a Presentation A Journey to Personal and Social Transformation )

Jean Vanier ( founder of L’Arche) said he had worked with people, the disabled, who live with rejection, for 41 years. These people were put aside by society and throughout the 1960s and 1970s were institutionalized. Today, people with disabilities live in garbage cans or they are aborted.

Vanier also said we are a society that has lost the meaning of suffering. He argued that the greatest suffering today is among the elderly who are institutionalized and ignored. They are abandoned. We have become a culture of individuality that has stopped caring about others…

It seems that these two people have a different view of life than the Dutch, and what they believe in is in conformity with Church teaching, the Dutch laws certainly are not.