Italian Minister Accuses Holland of “Nazism” for Euthanasia Laws

[Rosalinda]

Paul_ There is a difference between discerning between good and evil acts and making a judgement on someone. We both agree: God alone will judge us and I take as much consolation in that as you do. If someone stole your car, maligned your good name or raped your wife would you say that it wrong? Wouldn’t that be judgemental? Pointing out the error of your thinking and encouraging you to actively inform and form your conscience is an act of kindness. On the other hand, if I said you are dammed to hell that would indubitably be judgemental.

To the contrary, it is your side which is being judgemental; judging who shall live and who shall die. These helpless victims are executed before they can even speak for themselves or consent to this definitive, irreversible action. Because you prefer to be judged by Him alone you might want try to understand Him a little before presuming too much.

vatican.va/edocs/ENG0141/__P6.HTM

 

[paul_post]

I am waiting to die at the stake condemned by certain people.
It happened before in history and later it turned out that the ones which condemned the other…Churches and what they stand for can be in error also.

 

[Eileen_T]

paul_post:

I am waiting to die at the stake condemned by certain people.

Who would light the fire? It wouldn’t be a Catholic who follows Church teaching and believes in the sanctity of all human life from conception to a natural (unassisted) death.

Comments like this look like red herrings to divert attention away from the subject. I can’t blame you though, it is hard to defend what is morally indefensable. That is why euthanasia advocates (like abortion advocates) prefer euphemisms and perform verbal gymnastics rather than use words that expose the ugliness of what they propose.

 

[paul_post]

“use words that expose the ugliness of what they propose”
And an extra kick in the back…

Just look at history:
“In 1184, Pope Lucius III issued a bull against heretics, which would establish many of the principals of jurisprudence later adopted by the Inquisition. Among those principals was the idea that anyone that shielded or succored heretics would be liable to the same punishment as the heretic themselves, that unrepentant heretics should be turned over to secular arm for punishment, and that “relapsed” heretics should receive steeper sentences (including confiscation of property).”
One of the punishments was the death on the stake. Later Popes like Lucius would be named “holy”. What would be the judgement today???
And only kneeling in the front rows of the pew, does not allow people to judge others who do not think the same way about certain subjects. It returns to the time of the heretics. In those times a lot of wrong arguments were used to have the heretic condemned. History repeats itself.
But our “great” Italian minister is the third dog laughing about all the attention he got, and gets the votes he wanted, pushing desperate people back into their misery. That’s what makes me feel guilty.

 

[Jasny]

I know for a fact hat Euthanasia is being practiced in Europe. A doctor I know told me of a woman who was also a doctor who had got cancer. The women doctor was hopeful to get better but she was very afraid of getting killed by her doctors in the hospital because of the type of cancer she had.
Euthaniasia is the cure for all sicknesses. Medicine would never have developed if it was leagal in Christian Europe in the past.

This doctor also told me that pain can be almost eliminated but many countries will not leagalise their use of certain drugs that would do it --especially USA.

 

[Eileen_T]

“use words that expose the ugliness of what they propose”
And an extra kick in the back…

Just look at history:
“In 1184, Pope Lucius III issued a bull against heretics, which would establish many of the principals of jurisprudence later adopted by the Inquisition. Among those principals was the idea that anyone that shielded or succored heretics would be liable to the same punishment as the heretic themselves, that unrepentant heretics should be turned over to secular arm for punishment, and that “relapsed” heretics should receive steeper sentences (including confiscation of property).”
One of the punishments was the death on the stake. Later Popes like Lucius would be named “holy”. What would be the judgement today???
And only kneeling in the front rows of the pew, does not allow people to judge others who do not think the same way about certain subjects. It returns to the time of the heretics. In those times a lot of wrong arguments were used to have the heretic condemned. History repeats itself.
But our “great” Italian minister is the third dog laughing about all the attention he got, and gets the votes he wanted, pushing desperate people back into their misery. That’s what makes me feel guilty.

Nobody likes the comparison to the Nazis, I understand that. Yet the way the T4 programme started is similar to what is happening in your country. The German doctors pleaded at Nuremberg that they were acting out of compassion.

We have the same problem with abortion when it is referred to as a Holocaust. Jewish people get upset because they believe they have sole rights to that word.

I am not replying to comments about the Inquisition and heretics on this thread, that is a different topic and not my area of expertise. I can understand the temptation to “put someone out of their misery”, I just can’t condone it.

Paul, what do you mean about “pushing desperate people back into their misery” and what are you feeling guilty about? If you don’t want to discuss this on an open forum you can PM me.

 

[Pondero]

What people are missing in this debate is the assumption that pain = suffering. It does not.

*Dr. Mount said, that suffering is subjective and personal. Suffering is experienced by whole persons not simply by bodies. Suffering can present a paradox. A person may have pain but no suffering, or no pain but incredible suffering. Suffering is often existential or connected to spiritual pain… (From a Presentation A Journey to Personal and Social Transformation )
*
In any case, with the advent of palliative care, at least in Canada, there is no need for euthanasia.

 

[Rosalinda]

As Paul_post has asked at least three times on this thread, “Where do you stop?” and the responses of Flopfoot and Eileen seemingly went unheard here is the official teaching of the Catholic Church in the CCC.

2278 Discontinuing medical procedures that are burdensome, dangerous, extraordinary, or disproportionate to the expected outcome can be legitimate; it is the refusal of “over-zealous” treatment.
Here one does not will to cause death; one’s inability to impede it is merely accepted.
The decisions should be made by the patient if he is competent and able or, if not, by those legally entitled to act for the patient, whose reasonable will and legitimate interests must always be respected.

2279 Even if death is thought imminent, the ordinary care owed to a sick person cannot be legitimately interrupted.
The use of painkillers to alleviate the sufferings of the dying, even at the risk of shortening their days, can be morally in conformity with human dignity if death is not willed as either an end or a means, but only foreseen and tolerated as inevitable
Palliative care is a special form of disinterested charity.
As such it should be encouraged

vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P7Z.HTM

 

[paul_post]

I think we will go on and on in circles around eachother. I do, of course, respect your views and intentions in this subject. In most of the cases I think I agree with them, but my point is not understood or one does not even want to understand what is the real standpoint. Reading through the whole posting I sometimes had the idea that you think that doctors come in the morning with their patients with big lists and reading through the information the doctor put a red cross on the bed for those who has to be killed that day (to score his quote of victims).
I understand we never come to an agreement, but that was not the point. I only started my posting to try to get a discussion. That never succeeded, I was immediately accussed and the Dutch were murderers. It is a pitty I see no chances to change some views on it and to avoid we are hurting eachother I think it is better to stop.
As a human being (and that has nothing to do with religion) I sincerly hope that you, your relatives and your friends will stay in good health and that you will never reach the point that you will think back at this discussion. If so, I will talk to you when we meet with Him and see if you still fee the same that the Dutch were the murderers and if that is in His view also. If He do thinks so, we will not meet…but I think we will shake hands.

 

[Rosalinda]

Originally asked by Paul_post:

Who is talking about disabled in this discussion??? This is far away of what is really the point.

The original article posted was talking about the disabled:

“Nazi legislation and Hitler’s ideas are re-emerging in Europe via Dutch euthanasia laws and the debate on how to kill ill children,” said Parliamentary Affairs minister Carlo Giovanardi on an Italian radio programme last Friday.
He said it is “eugenics” to debate killing children “who are ill or have Down syndrome.”

Let us take the case of newborn diagnosed with Down syndrome and an intestional blockage. The parents refuse to consent to the corrective surgery necessary to save their son’s life. The reason given: the quality of life of their son would not be worth it. Are the parents justified in their decision to deny their son even minimum, ordinary care?

 

[Rosalinda]

Originally posted by Paul_

As a human being (and that has nothing to do with religion) I sincerely hope that you, your relatives and your friends will stay in good health and that you will never reach the point that you will think back at this discussion.

Thank you for your good wishes. In point of fact, I recently lost my sister to cancer. She left behind two young daughters, 17 and 21 years of age. She suffered greatly, yes, but it was not the physical pain which was the worse because there was sufficient medicine for that, after she entered palliative care. No, her greatest suffering was knowing she was going to die and leave her daughters behind before they were married or had started their own families. (You see she was a single mother and neither child had ever known their father.) During her final illness, I was by her bedside holding her hand, massaging her swollen legs, praying out loud for her when she was too weak to pray and pressing cold clothes on her forehead to cool her down. All small acts of love that were a gift to me as well as my sister. We were never closer than in those final months; all our differences were resolved and the peace had never been so sweet.

As for family and friends, they took around the clock shifts to be with her every moment and to see to her every need. She did not die alone but surrounded by such an outpouring of love her life span actually increased well beyond doctors expectations. Had my sister demanded to be mercifully killed off, after initially receiving her terminal diagnosis, she would have missed some of the most joyful days of her life such was the foretaste of heaven she experienced in her last days. She was given the grace of knowing she was to die and the time to prepare for death. Suffering sanctified my sister; she died a holy, painless, peaceful death. Her final months were spent generously offering her suffering in union with Jesus for the sake of sinners. She went before Our Lord completely trusting in His Divine Mercy having made a complete and beautiful confession. Both her life and her death were gifts.

This experience has taught me how faithful God is to His promises: truly His burden is light and His yoke easy.