Italian nun covers 'Like a Virgin'

[saintjohnxxiii]

So let me get this straight, Amazing Grace should never be sung in a Catholic Church because some of the lyrics are heretical, Here comes the bride should never be done for a Catholic Wedding but a Nun can sing Madonna who back in the 80s had the Vatican trying to cancel any concerts in Rome because of her mocking the sacred.

Am I the only one who sees hypocrisy and total disconnect?

 

[suko]

So let me get this straight, Amazing Grace should never be sung in a Catholic Church because some of the lyrics are heretical

I don’t know where u got this idea from, but this just isn’t true. :nope: In fact, this hymn is an approved hymn for the LOTH (Liturgy of the Hours) in the Common of One Martyr, Evening Prayer II. And since the LOTH is the Official Prayer of the Church, it stands to reason that this hymn is an appropriate hymn for Mass. The English LOTH books, too, have been approved by the Holy See as well.

I know I’ve heard this song sung many times during Mass.

Here comes the bride should never be done for a Catholic Wedding

There’s a good article about this here: adoremus.org/1105WeddingsSongs.html ~ Although, it’s kinda long so I’ll just quote the reason why it should not be allowed in a Catholic Wedding (that has a Mass):

"Here is the crucial issue: this is not just a social affair, it is the mystical, magnificent Eucharistic liturgy. It is a sacred event, and subject to the same considerations as any other Mass. Hymns must have a suitable sacred text, be appropriate to the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass, and be musically sacred in nature."

a Nun can sing Madonna who back in the 80s had the Vatican trying to cancel any concerts in Rome because of her mocking the sacred.

Am I the only one who sees hypocrisy and total disconnect?

I don’t see any hypocrisy, to be honest.
Perhaps I may be misunderstanding u, but I think u are mixing up two different issues here: What songs or hymns that are appropriate for Mass is a completely different issue as to whether a Nun can sing a secular song that does not take place in a Mass.

 

[saintjohnxxiii]

I don’t know where u got this idea from, but this just isn’t true. :nope: In fact, this hymn is an approved hymn for the LOTH (Liturgy of the Hours) in the Common of One Martyr, Evening Prayer II. And since the LOTH is the Official Prayer of the Church, it stands to reason that this hymn is an appropriate hymn for Mass. The English LOTH books, too, have been approved by the Holy See as well.

I know I’ve heard this song sung many times during Mass.

Then explain these posts:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=2388965
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=254406
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=3342337
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=2388965

There’s a good article about this here: adoremus.org/1105WeddingsSongs.html ~ Although, it’s kinda long so I’ll just quote the reason why it should not be allowed in a Catholic Wedding (that has a Mass):

"Here is the crucial issue: this is not just a social affair, it is the mystical, magnificent Eucharistic liturgy. It is a sacred event, and subject to the same considerations as any other Mass. Hymns must have a suitable sacred text, be appropriate to the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass, and be musically sacred in nature."

I think you are missing my point. I don’t disagree that Here comes the Bride shouldn’t be sung at a Catholic wedding or any mass for that matter but I would hazard to say that the scandal from that song wouldn’t be as great as a Nun singing a song from Madonna.

I don’t see any hypocrisy, to be honest.
Perhaps I may be misunderstanding u, but I think u are mixing up two different issues here: What songs or hymns that are appropriate for Mass is a completely different issue as to whether a Nun can sing a secular song that does not take place in a Mass.

Scandal isn’t confined to just to the Mass.

 

[suko]

Then explain these posts:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=2388965
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=254406
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=3342337
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=2388965

Please keep in mind that the Holy See trumps a Catholic Answers Apologist. Now I’m not saying that this particular Catholic Answers Apologist (Michelle Arnold) is wrong in expressing some reservation, but the fact is, this hymn has been approved by the Holy See.

Btw, I very much respect Michelle Arnold’s opinions on things, and it appears she does acknowledge that ***“The songs are not explicitly forbidden to be performed at Catholic liturgies”. ***

I think you are missing my point. I don’t disagree that Here comes the Bride shouldn’t be sung at a Catholic wedding or any mass for that matter but I would hazard to say that the scandal from that song wouldn’t be as great as a Nun singing a song from Madonna.

Scandal isn’t confined to just to the Mass.

Ah, I getcha now!

And believe me, I can understand your concern. However, I think the question, “Who decides what dictates a scandal (in the case of a nun singing a Madonna song)?”, is the question that we should ask ourselves. Personally, I think there’s a lot of things going on for any of us to really make an objective judgment on this. This whole issue really isn’t all black and white. It just isn’t. But that’s why I think it’s best, as one of the mods Thomas Casey had pointed out in a post that I referenced earlier, that “It is up to the major superior of a religious and the Sacred Congregation for Institutes of Consecrated Life and Societies of Apostolic Life to decide what is and is not appropriate for a religious, not up to us to trespass into an area that is the area of competence and authority of another.” and that “The Holy See has already made a positive statement on this subject.”

That said, I don’t think it’s too much to surmise that the Holy See appears to think that scandal is not an issue, or at least shouldn’t be. And I would just leave it at that. I really believe there’s a lot of good that can come out of what Suor Cris is doing, and I believe the Holy See believes the same, too.

 

[WilT]

QUOTE=suko;12491027

Hi Suko, a couple of things. Now once again about ONLY the Madonna song, here again is part of the lyrics and tell me if again if this doesn’t bother you.

Gonna give you all my love, boy
My fear is fading fast
Been saving it all for you
'Cause only love can last

You’re so fine
And you’re mine
Make me strong, yeah you make me bold
Oh your love thawed out
Yeah, your love thawed out
What was scared and cold

Like a virgin, hey
Touched for the very first time
Like a virgin
With your heartbeat
Next to mine

The only Virgin I can relate to in our Faith is the Blessed Mother and I still have trouble seeing a religious woman singing this lyric. Cardinals vary in the understanding of the Faith so one Cardinal may be…let’s say Conservative and another Liberal in his opinion. His favoring the song sung by the nun doesn’t confirm Catholic teaching. It’s just his opinion.

“Please keep in mind that the Holy See trumps a Catholic Answers Apologist…” Now who is the one challenging the Apologists! lol. Catholic moderators have a right to control and monitor their area on the Catholic Answer website. I can still disagree with their angle of understanding the Catholic Faith.

 

[suko]

Gonna give you all my love, boy
My fear is fading fast
Been saving it all for you
'Cause only love can last

You’re so fine
And you’re mine
Make me strong, yeah you make me bold
Oh your love thawed out
Yeah, your love thawed out
What was scared and cold

Like a virgin, hey
Touched for the very first time
Like a virgin
With your heartbeat
Next to mine

The only Virgin I can relate to in our Faith is the Blessed Mother and I still have trouble seeing a religious woman singing this lyric.

The word “Boy” was actually taken out in Suor Cris’ version. And yes, when I first listened to this song, I was a little bit troubled. What helped was realizing that this is supposed to be taken in a spiritual context, not sexual. Did u read how Suor Cris wanted us to interpret the song? Also, remember the Song of Solomon/Canticle of Canticles in the Old Testament? Or how about the great mystic and Doctor of the Church, St. John of the Cross (he was a religious himself), who wrote some pretty eye-brow raising poems himself. These are great examples of lyrics that very easily could be taken as something sexual or lustful, but they obviously are supposed to be interpreted in a spiritual dimension. You need to look at the intention of the author, that’s the thing that matters. If one is going to accuse Suor Cris of singing a lustful song, then the same would need to be applied to the Song of Solomon and to the poems of St. John of the Cross.

Just curious, but would u have a problem or be troubled if a nun sang some of the words of the Song of Solomon?

In any case, as I’m sure u know, u don’t have to listen to Suor Cris’ version since u find it troubling (which is fine, btw), but please take care not to accuse her of doing something wrong (don’t worry, I’m not saying that u did ).

Cardinals vary in the understanding of the Faith so one Cardinal may be…let’s say Conservative and another Liberal in his opinion. His favoring the song sung by the nun doesn’t confirm Catholic teaching. It’s just his opinion.

Trust me, I understand all this. However, this particular Cardinal is also speaking for the Church on this matter, so his opinion is not something to just be easily dismissed. And again, it isn’t up for us to judge whether or not a religious doing this or that is appropriate. I can’t stress this enough. When we do, we are acting like we are their Superior or the founder of the particular religious order in question, and thus have the competent knowledge to judge what’s appropriate or not. And we just don’t. Anyway, we’ll have to agree to disagree on this.

 

[suko]

Gonna give you all my love, boy
My fear is fading fast
Been saving it all for you
'Cause only love can last

You’re so fine
And you’re mine
Make me strong, yeah you make me bold
Oh your love thawed out
Yeah, your love thawed out
What was scared and cold

Like a virgin, hey
Touched for the very first time
Like a virgin
With your heartbeat
Next to mine

The only Virgin I can relate to in our Faith is the Blessed Mother and I still have trouble seeing a religious woman singing this lyric.

The word “Boy” was actually taken out in Suor Cris’ version. And yes, when I first listened to this song, I was a little bit troubled, too. One of the things that helped was realizing that this is supposed to be taken in a spiritual context, not sexual, similar to the Song of Solomon/Canticle of Canticles in the Old Testament, as well as the poems of the great mystic and Doctor of the Church, St. John of the Cross. One part of one of St. John’s poems says this:

Upon my flowering breast,
which I kept wholly for him alone,
there he lay sleeping,
and I caressing him

Can u imagine a guy writing this? Lol. As much as u have trouble seeing a nun singing the “virgin” lyric, I have trouble imagining a guy writing in such an eye-brow raising manner, lol.

In any case, imho, the thing that matters in the end is the intention of the author and how they want us to interpret, and Suor Cris was definitely not referring to the Blessed Virgin when the “virgin” lyric is sung. But I can understand how u can think otherwise.

Cardinals vary in the understanding of the Faith so one Cardinal may be…let’s say Conservative and another Liberal in his opinion. His favoring the song sung by the nun doesn’t confirm Catholic teaching. It’s just his opinion.

Trust me, I understand all this. However, this particular Cardinal is also speaking for the Church on this matter, so his opinion is not something to just be easily dismissed. And again, in this context, it isn’t up for us to judge whether or not a religious doing this or that is appropriate. I can’t stress this enough. When we do, we are acting like we are this particular religious’ Superior or the founder of the particular religious order in question, and thus have the competent knowledge to judge what’s appropriate or not. And we just don’t. Anyway, I think we’ll just have to agree to disagree on this.

“Please keep in mind that the Holy See trumps a Catholic Answers Apologist…” Now who is the one challenging the Apologists! lol.

Forgive me, but I don’t understand your comment here.

 

[WilT]

Anyway, I think we’ll just have to agree to disagree on this.

 

[saintjohnxxiii]

Please keep in mind that the Holy See trumps a Catholic Answers Apologist.  Now I'm not saying that this particular Catholic Answers Apologist (Michelle Arnold) is wrong in expressing some reservation, but the fact is, this hymn has been approved by the Holy See.

Btw, I very much respect Michelle Arnold’s opinions on things, and it appears she does acknowledge that ***“The songs are not explicitly forbidden to be performed at Catholic liturgies”. ***

Thanks for the info. I would be most grateful if you could post a link re The Holy See approval of Amazing Grace so that if this comes up again in the future I can show others this as well.

And believe me, I can understand your concern. However, I think the question, “Who decides what dictates a scandal (in the case of a nun singing a Madonna song)?”, is the question that we should ask ourselves. Personally, I think there’s a lot of things going on for any of us to really make an objective judgment on this. This whole issue really isn’t all black and white. It just isn’t. But that’s why I think it’s best, as one of the mods Thomas Casey had pointed out in a post that I referenced earlier, that “It is up to the major superior of a religious and the Sacred Congregation for Institutes of Consecrated Life and Societies of Apostolic Life to decide what is and is not appropriate for a religious, not up to us to trespass into an area that is the area of competence and authority of another.” and that “The Holy See has already made a positive statement on this subject.”

Just a few points of clarification. Thomas Casey’s admonition was about the Nun’s singing in general on TV. This in and of itself I will remain neutral on because there is nothing inherently scandalous about it. If you look at the time stamp this was before THIS thread even started and also the approval from the major superior of a religious and the Sacred Congregation for Institutes of Consecrated Life and Societies of Apostolic Life was granted for the request to sing on TV, not on singing a Madonna song.

The bottom line is that Madonna’s songs and her “music” are an affront to Catholic teachings and piety. The fact that the Vatican tried to cancel concerts in Rome where she was to perform says something about how offensive she is. Its not like there is a shortage of pop-secular songs. We shouldn’t be Catholic Uncle Tom’s.

 

[suko]

Thanks for the info. I would be most grateful if you could post a link re The Holy See approval of Amazing Grace so that if this comes up again in the future I can show others this as well.

You can actually find the approval in any of the LOTH volumes.

However, I went ahead and scanned the approval page from the 3rd volume, and u can see it here: i134.photobucket.com/albums/q94/suikojay/LOTHHolySee.jpg?t=1416030820

Also, here’s the document Laudis Canticum, which is the “Apostolic Constitution promulgating the revised book of the Liturgy of the Hours”. And if u check the document, and scroll towards the bottom, at around the 3rd to last paragraph, you’ll see this (which tells u that the Apostolic See had to approve each of the vernacular volumes first):

We hereby decree that this new book for the Liturgy of the Hours may be put into use as soon as it is published. Meanwhile, the conferences of bishops are to see to the preparation of editions of this liturgical work in the vernacular and, after approval, that is, confirmation, of these editions by the Apostolic See, are to fix the date when the vernacular editions may or must be used, either in whole or in part.

You can find this above quote (as well as the whole Laudis Canticum document) also in the LOTH Volume 1 page 19-20.

When one thinks about it, pretty much all the priests, monks and nuns pray a part, or all of the LOTH, so it actually does make sense that everything would have to go thru the guys up top first.