It's NOT in the Bible, okay?

[yankee_drifter]

Quote from joe370

Typically, when most people ask if one believes the Bible, that person means do you believe the Bible as I interpret it, or, as my church interprets it? The question that no one will give a straight answer to, is: who has the God given authority? Drifter, who has the authority, granted by Jesus Christ? To which church in the world today do the following words apply? She, as the bride of Christ, has to still be here for the simple fact that Jesus is the savior of His church and the holy spirit is to be with her until the end of time:

2 Peter 1:20: no prophecy of the scripture is of any** private interpretation**.

Joe, let me ask you a question. Did Jesus ever tell anyone to go to the synagogue and have the Rabbi interpret the Scriptures for them?

 

[joe370]

Quote from joe370

2 Peter 1:20: no prophecy of the scripture is of any** private interpretation**.

Joe, let me ask you a question. Did Jesus ever tell anyone to go to the synagogue and have the Rabbi interpret the Scriptures for them?

_____________________________-

Nope! Why would he? Jesus was ushering in something new - His church, to which he commanded to teach. Yankee, if you and I can authoritatively interpret the bible as we see fit, without any need to obey our church leaders or defer to their authority, then what happens when you and I disagree on something regarding the teachings of Jesus? Who decides who is right and who is wrong?

 

[yankee_drifter]

quote from joe370

*So, all Christians regardless of church affiliation have the authority to interpret the bible as they based on their unique view of their bibles? For example the following Christian churches (and that’s nothing compared to the true number) - all have the God given authority to teach based on their interpretation of the bible:

Joe, The Bible is foolishness to the world because its spiritually discerned. Unregenerate man cannot understand it because he knows nothing of the things of God. When a person is born again, usually through the preaching of Jesus Christ, (as we see in the N.T.) and they repent and confess Christ as Lord and Savior, get baptized and choose to follow Him, they are now disciples and part of God’s family.They are saved as we read in Acts 16:30,31. The blood of Christ washes the sins of those who repent, believe and place their faith and trust in Him alone for salvation. Once this newly reborn (regenerate) Christian reads the Bible, the Holy Spirit, who Christ sent in His place as He was about to ascend to heaven, promises to guide and teach the Christian what God has revealed in His Word. We learn Truth and what God’s will is via the Holy Spirit.The Holy Spirit indwells the believer. So, it isn’t my private interpretations. The Bible is not difficult to understand, although there are hard passages such as some of Paul’s writings, and churches sometimes stumble on what Paul was actually saying. Peter himself admitted this. Even the RCC does not have unanimous interpretation on more than a handful of passages.

1 John 2:27: But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

The RCC says they alone can understand it, but Jesus never not once said that. No church has a monopoly on the Scriptures.

 

[JustaServant]

We learn Truth and what God’s will is via the Holy Spirit.The Holy Spirit indwells the believer. So, it isn’t me interpreting anything.

So,YOU’RE the Holy Spirit?
We have 52,000 denonminations out there filled with this special class of people (regenerated), all of whom have thier own interpretations of scripture.
So, the Holy Spirit is the author of confusion?
You whole argument falls apart by a simple glace at the Yellow Pages.

 

[CoachSTL]

2 Peter 1:21
For prophecy never had its origin in the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.

Looking at verse 21, the context is about how prophecy and prophecy of scripture originates from God, not man. In verse 16, St.Peter stated they did not follow cleverly invented stories about the transfiguration of Jesus.

In light of his testimony, St.Peter encourages to pay more attention to “the words of the prophets made more certain”.

2 Peter 1:19
And we have the word of the prophets made more certain, and you will do well to pay attention to it, as to a light shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts.

I don’t see any hint of where 1 Peter 2:20-21 vehemently means no man can self-interpret scripture.

Lev23,

You are too predictable. In light of your statment, “I don’t see any hint of where 1 Peter 2:20-21 vehemently means no man can self-interpret scripture.” My response to you is this.

You may or may not see any hint, you may be lying, we will never know your actual truth. But the fact remains that Peter was talking about personal interpretation of Sacred Scriptures as being a “no-no”. One must ask, how does the Catholic Church knows this? The answer is because of its history.

One also has to ask, how does Lev23 come up with his answer. Lev23’s answer is only based upon his personal interpretation of the verse. Look at his replay, *Looking at verse 21, the context is about how prophecy and prophecy of scripture originates from God, not man. In verse 16, St.Peter stated they did not follow cleverly invented stories about the transfiguration of Jesus. In light of his testimony, St.Peter encourages to pay more attention to “the words of the prophets made more certain”. * This statement is nothing more than a personal interpretation, nothing founded historically, only another of his theories.

I have just shown you the difference between Church Teaching and personal interpretation.

 

[joe370]

Yankee, you said:

The Mormons claim the “church” fell into apostasy not long after the deaths of the apostles and that the authority was lost.

It’s not “the church.” It’s Jesus’ church. Jesus said: “I will build my church.” - agreed? We know that Jesus didn’t build the Mormon church from a purely logical position, and we know the name of the man who did build it, and when. Are we in agreement thus far?

**Both catholics and mormons say the other is an apostate church.
**

Do you believe that the CC built by Jesus is an apostate church? Do you believe that the Mormon church is the church built by God?

**While your all squabbling about “my church,” Jesus said he gives authority to every believer in Him. **

I would never say anything bad about the church to which you belong, nor are we, here at CAF squabbling about your church or any church for that matter. You came to CAF; we didn’t come to you, and I just want to share with you why I left the protestant maelstrom, in search of the actual church built by Jesus. If you are happy where you are my friend, then you are truly home. We are all brothers in Christ regardless of church affiliation.

To all who put their trust in Him and confess their sins, God promises to forgive and remember their sin no more. Every regenerate believer in the Lord Jesus Christ is part of the Royal Priesthood.

Including Catholics???

If God promises not to remember anymore your old sins that you’ve confessed; gone to the priest for absolution, then why are you still holding on to those sins and doing penance? Why are you believing in the need for further “purification” after death?

First Purgatory. To make it to the purgative point is to make it to heaven, ultimately. This didn’t bother me even as a Lutheran. Jesus said:

*“And whoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him; but whoever shall speak against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him, either in this age, or in the age to come.”
*

I thought we couldn’t be forgiven in the age to come? It’s heaven or hell. We don’t need forgiveness in heaven and we can’t be forgiven in hell.

Secondly, I am a sinner and will be a sinner till the day I die. If I confess my sins to God, (as you clearly stated is a MUST) - then God will remember them no more, as long as I sin no more. I am afraid I can’t say that I will sin no more, for that would be a lie, necessitating the need for me to continue to confess my sins until I sin no more, which is impossible, in this age. Are we in agreement?

**The OT law not only made all subject to it and liable to be condemned for the guilt of sin, but was also unable to remove that guilt, and clear the conscience. But, by the blood of Christ, a full remission of sins was provided, so that God would remember them no more.
**

So, I can continue to sin my entire life, after confessing my sins to God just once, and God will remember my sins no more?

Even if we continue to belong to different churches, it’s always a joy to debate with you and other Christians belonging to churches other than the CC.

 

[Charlotte408]

I would much appreciate it if someone one, (especially you who are n-Cs) would display and clarify for me just precisely where it is in the Word of God that it specifically states that everything that Christians believe and practice must be found within its pages.

This also is for some of you Catholics that come in here and all but demand to know where some Catholic teaching or practice is found in the Bible.

The reason I am posting this is because I have read the Bible (all 73 books of it!) many times and have yet to find anything that supports this idea. I have concluded that the Catholic Church is correct in teaching that the Bible does not say this and therefore it is error.

I want all of us Catholics to understand that this is a fundamental doctrinal error of some communities of n-C Christianity and so there is no reason to get distressed when someone comes at you with this stuff, because the fact of the matter is …it’s NOT in the Bible itself.

Let me see if I get you right…what your saying is, that, not everything christian is in the bible, but thats ok, because it doesnt say anywhere in the bible that everything christian has to BE in the bible…?

spanks hand I’m guilty…

lol…I’m totally the kind of person that needs to know how, why, when, where, I just do. I just cant believe something simply because someone tells me to do so. Like, a BIG one I jsut had was dealing with passover. and why we dont celebrate it, when christ clearly states its a feast that he wants us to do in his honor. ((still trying to wrap my head around the answer i got))

See, my first problem is I trust God, not man. If someone just comes up and says this is the way it is, without anything from scripture to back it up…its just…a little harder to believe, you know? Also, when trying to support my belief, you need to have supporting evidence…like I got into it pretty bad with this guy from the ‘world mission society of church’ and when it comes down to his: This is what christ says… versus, well, this is what the CC teaches…

idk it just drives me crazy sometimes…but im still new to all this so…

 

[jlhargus]

Once this newly reborn (regenerate) Christian reads the Bible, the Holy Spirit, who Christ sent in His place as He was about to ascend to heaven, promises to guide and teach the Christian what God has revealed in His Word. We learn Truth and what God’s will is via the Holy Spirit.The Holy Spirit indwells the believer. So, it isn’t my private interpretations.

1 John 2:27: But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

The RCC says they alone can understand it, but Jesus never not once said that. No church has a monopoly on the Scriptures.

JL: 1Jn2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time. 19 THEY WENT OUT FROM US, but they were not of US; for if they had been of US, they would no doubt have continued with US: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of US 20 But YE HAVE AN UNCTION FROM THE HOLY ONE, and YE KNOW ALL THINGS. 21 I HAVE NOT WRITTEN unto you BECAUSE YE KNOW NOT THE TRUTH, but because YE KNOW IT, and that no lie is of the truth. 22 … 23… 24 LET THAT therefore ABIDE IN YOU, WHICH YE HAVE HEARD FROM THE BEGINNING. IF THAT WHICH YE HAVE HEARD FROM THE BEGINNING shall REMAIN IN YOU, YE also SHALL CONTINUE IN THE SON, AND in the FATHER. 25 And this is the promise that he hath promised us, EVEN ETERNAL LIFE. 26 These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you. 27 But THE ANOINTING which YE HAVE RECEIVED OF HIM ABIDETH IN YOU, and YE NEED NOT that ANY MAN TEACH YOU: but as THE same ANOINTING TEACHETH YOU ALL THINGS, AND IS TRUTH, and is no lie, and even AS IT HATH TAUGHT YOU, YE SHALL ABIDE IN HIM.

THE ANOINTING (UNCTION) YE HAVE RECEIVED OF HIM=that is grace and wisdom from the Holy Spirit, the seven gifts. Who gives the wisdom, to LET THAT ABIDE IN US, WHICH WE HAVE HEARD FROM THE BEGINNING. Note not what we have read and formed our own opinion. In other words the gospel as preached by the SENT Apostolic Fellowship, the Church the pillar and ground of truth. That which we have HEARD from the beginning, if we allow it to abide in our hearts and mind we know the truth and will not be deceived, by those teaching another gospel. The (UNCTION) ANOINTING TEACHETH YOU ALL THINGS. The anointing teaches those of the Household of God to remain faithful to the word (that abideth in them, that which they have RECEIVED FROM THE BEGINNING, as proclaimed in the Church by her lawful ministers who have been SENT. In unity with them we share in the Holy Spirit promised to lead the Church in all truth and have the knowledge necessary not to be deceived and led astray by those who went out from the Church, they are not SENT ministers, but go out on their own authority, teaching another gospel of their own opinion.

What did people do the first time the gospel was preached by Peter? Acts2:41 Then THEY THAT gladly RECEIVED HIS WORD were BAPTIZED: and the same day there WERE ADDED UNTO THEM about three thousand souls. 42 And THEY CONTINUED steadfastly IN the APOSTLES’ DOCTRINE and FELLOWSHIP, and in BREAKING OF BREAD, and in PRAYERS. [Those that received his word were baptized. They were brought into the Church by baptism and CONTINUED steadfastly in the One Holy Catholic Apostolic Fellowship.] 1Cor 1:9 God is faithful you were called into THE FELLOWSHIP OF his Son JESUS CHRIST 10 I appeal to you BREATHREN by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ that all of you AGREE that there be no dissensions among you that you BE UNITED in the same mind and THE SAME JUDGMENT. 1Jn 4:6 We are of God Whoever knows God LISTENS TO US and he who is not of God DOES NOT LISTEN TO US BY THIS WE KNOW the spirit of TRUTH and the spirit of ERROR [Therefore we do not listen to men, who go out on there own authority, the spirit of error, to be taken in by false teachers and every wind of doctrine men can devise through sola scriptura, that tower of babel, confusing the one faith langueage scattering people of faith into myriads of groups, by a tradition of men made a doctrine of God around 1521 AD.] I prefer to hear the Church SENT by Christ, the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth, 1 TM 3:14.

Paul even checked his teaching with that one fellowship. [Gal2:1 Then fourteen years after I WENT UP AGAIN TO JERUSALEM with Barnabas, and took Titus with me also. 2 And I went up BY REVELATION, and COMMUNICATED UNTO THEM that GOSPEL which I PREACH among the Gentiles, but privately to them which were of reputation, LEST BY ANY MEANS I SHOULD run, or HAD RUN, IN VAIN.] Even though sent by Christ, Paul realized he could possibly be preaching another gospel than the Apostolic Fellowship. Paul went by revelation to check his teaching with the teaching of the Apostles’ Fellowship. Those SENT by Christ, to teach ALL NATIONS, ALL Christ commanded, till the end of the age, Mt28:16-20. The Apostolic Fellowship Christ promised the Holy Spirit would guide them into ALL TRUTH, Jn16:13. If individual Christians had the ability to be led into all truth, because they have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit with baptism, we would all be one without disagreement. We can see that is not the case.

 

[joe370]

**Joe, The Bible is foolishness to the world because its spiritually discerned.
**

True, the bible is spiritually discerned, but I wouldn’t call it foolishness to the world.

…Unregenerate man cannot understand it because he knows nothing of the things of God.

That is why Jesus endowed the church He built, with the spirit of truth, to guide and protect her, (the deposit of faith that is) - as the bride of Christ, until the end of time. This is very biblical.

…When a person is born again, usually through the preaching of Jesus Christ, (as we see in the N.T.) and they repent and confess Christ as Lord and Savior, get baptized and choose to follow Him, they are now disciples and part of God’s family.

I thought we were/are born again at baptism, and once we reach the age of accountability, we must repent of our sins and confess our sins to Jesus Christ and choose to follow Him as born again Christians, with the never ending propensity to sin, necessitating the need to confess our sins, until we finish the race.

…They are saved as we read in Acts 16:30,31. The blood of Christ washes the sins of those who repent, believe and place their faith and trust in Him alone for salvation.

This is something that all churches have in common, which is awesome.

…Once this newly reborn (regenerate) Christian reads the Bible, the Holy Spirit, who Christ sent in His place as He was about to ascend to heaven, promises to guide and teach the Christian what God has revealed in His Word.

So, once I am baptised and read the Bible, the Holy Spirit, who Christ sent in His place as He was about to ascend to heaven, promises to guide and teach me personally (as opposed to Jesus’ church) - what God has revealed in His Word. The bible is every Christians exclusive authority, and always has been for the last 2000 years???

…The Bible is not difficult to understand, although there are hard passages such as some of Paul’s writings, and churches sometimes stumble on what Paul was actually saying.

If it’s not difficult to understand, with the exception of a few passages from Paul, then why is there so much division outside the CC and the EOC?

…Peter himself admitted this. Even the RCC does not have unanimous interpretation on more than a handful of passages.

No church, not just the CC, has the right to interpret the bible, as per your own words. You said: the holy spirit promises to guide and teach the Christian (as opposed to a church) - what God has revealed in His Word.

True, the CC does not have “unanimous interpretation” on every detail in the bible, but they don’t challenge one another to the point of division and dissension. They stay united and obey their leaders and defer to their authority, just as all protestant churches do. Protestant churches claiming that the CC is out of line for usurping the authority of the word of God, all the while doing it it themselves, is wrong on so many levels.

1 John 2:27: But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

So, no teachers??? Let’s try and keep this in context by reading what precedes this verse. John is warning them of the anti-Christ:

Dear children, this is the last hour; and as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come. This is how we know it is the last hour. They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.

John is speaking of dissenters/anti-Christs, who no longer belong to Jesus’ church.

But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and all of you know the truth.

Why do they know the truth?

I do not write to you because you do not know the truth, but because you do know it and because no lie comes from the truth.

The spirit of truth (the anointed one) - is forever guiding Jesus’ one church.

Who is the liar? It is the man who denies that Jesus is the Christ. Such a man is the antichrist—he denies the Father and the Son. No one who denies the Son has the Father; whoever acknowledges the Son has the Father also. See that what you have heard from the beginning remains in you. If it does, you also will remain in the Son and in the Father. And this is what he promised us—even eternal life.

What they heard from the beginning. Heard from who? Jesus’ church leaders, via the imposition of hands.

I am writing these things to you about those who are trying to lead you astray. As for you, the anointing you received from him remains in you, and you do not need anyone to teach you. But as his anointing teaches you about all things and as that anointing is real, not counterfeit—just as it has taught you, remain in him

The ones trying to lead them astray have no authority to teach them something new for they have the anointed one, Who guides Jesus’ church, and will do so until the end of time.

The RCC says they alone can understand it, but Jesus never not once said that. No church has a monopoly on the Scriptures.

The CC, with her head quarters in Rome, does not believe that they alone can understand the bible. Anyone can interpret the bible, as long as their interpretation agrees with: which church, if not the CC??? Perhaps if we can find the church built by Jesus Christ, we will have our answer!

So, every church regardless of affiliation, has an equal monopoly on the how to interpret the Scriptures? If that is the case, can I belong to your church and bring my catholic beliefs with me, if no one, including your church, has a monopoly on the Scriptures?

 

[beafedor]

Doesn’t the Bible say that ignorance of the Scriptures is ignorance of Christ and aren’t these schools set up to teach people those Scriptures?

No, the Bible doesn’t say that. It’s a quote from St Jerome, in his commentary on Isaiah. It is great that other Christians besides Catholics have knowledge of this valuable teaching from a Church Father and Doctor of the Church and apply it in their local Churches.

 

[joe370]

Hey Charlotte, you said:

Let me see if I get you right…what your saying is, that, not everything christian is in the bible, but thats ok, because it doesnt say anywhere in the bible that everything christian has to BE in the bible…?

I am assuming that you don’t belong to CC yet? If so, you are the first non-Catholic to admit this, I mean, other than myself a few years ago, as a former non-Catholic.

lol…I’m totally the kind of person that needs to know how, why, when, where, I just do. I just cant believe something simply because someone tells me to do so. Like, a BIG one I jsut had was dealing with passover. and why we dont celebrate it, when christ clearly states its a feast that he wants us to do in his honor. ((still trying to wrap my head around the answer i got))

I am the same way. The key for me was to find the historical church built by Jesus, on the foundation of the Apostles and Prophets, as opposed to the myriad churches built on the foundation of the 16th century protestant reformation. It came down to the CC and the EOC, and only the CC was built on Peter, who was the only one given the keys… The English word Peter is translated to Petros in Greek, as opposed to petra, (due to its feminine connotation) - which is translated to the transliterated word, Cephas, which is found in the bible 6 times. The whole petra/Petros argument is nothing more than a non-Catholic attempt to lead Christians down that primrose path. Even my sister buys it hook, line and sinker. Both Jesus and Paul refer to Simon as Cephas because he is the immovable Rock that Jesus’ one church is built on. If Jesus wanted to call Peter an insignificant small stone or small rock, He would have called him kevna, which is the correct word for small rock/stone. Plus, why would Jesus reward Simon by insulting him. l

I often wondered why, if sola scriptura via individual interpretation, is our only authority, do non-Catholics celebrate Jesus’ birthday and resurrection once year? The bible is silent regarding these things. Jesus told his established church to do just one thing in remembrance of Him…

**See, my first problem is I trust God, not man. If someone just comes up and says this is the way it is, without anything from scripture to back it up…its just…a little harder to believe, you know?
**

That was my problem too. I was told that Jesus was my only teacher/mediator, then my former church teachers/mediators would start teaching/mediating their flock based on their interpretation of the bible, all the while chastising the only church built by God for doing the same. Jesus said to just one church: as the father has sent me so I send you, and we can trust His church only because we can trust the holy spirit, Who is forever guiding Jesus’ bride. Jesus said:

*"All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me… *

He than said:

…Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you…

And he promised to be them forever when he said:

*And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age."
*

He said this in John 14:16 as well.

*And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever— the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you.
*

Also, when trying to support my belief, you need to have supporting evidence…like I got into it pretty bad with this guy from the ‘world mission society of church’ and when it comes down to his: This is what christ says… versus, well, this is what the CC teaches…

I have discovered that Christianity can only be defended seamlessly, from a Catholic perspective. It’s impossible to answer certain questions from a non-Catholic perspective. For example:

Typically, when most people ask if one believes the Bible, that person means do you believe the Bible as I interpret it, or, as my church interprets it? The question that no non-Catholic will give a straight answer to, is: who has the God given authority?

idk it just drives me crazy sometimes…but im still new to all this so…

I think things will make more sense for you here at CAF; they did for me.

God bless…

 

[Lev23]

Lev23,

You are too predictable. In light of your statment, “I don’t see any hint of where 1 Peter 2:20-21 vehemently means no man can self-interpret scripture.” My response to you is this.

You may or may not see any hint, you may be lying, we will never know your actual truth. But the fact remains that Peter was talking about personal interpretation of Sacred Scriptures as being a “no-no”. One must ask, how does the Catholic Church knows this? The answer is because of its history.

One also has to ask, how does Lev23 come up with his answer. Lev23’s answer is only based upon his personal interpretation of the verse. Look at his replay, *Looking at verse 21, the context is about how prophecy and prophecy of scripture originates from God, not man. In verse 16, St.Peter stated they did not follow cleverly invented stories about the transfiguration of Jesus. In light of his testimony, St.Peter encourages to pay more attention to “the words of the prophets made more certain”. * This statement is nothing more than a personal interpretation, nothing founded historically, only another of his theories.

I have just shown you the difference between Church Teaching and personal interpretation.

You say you have showed me church teaching. Maybe I missed it, but I have never seen any official Vatican statement saying 2 Peter 1:20-21 means one cannot approach the scriptures and interpret them.

If there is, then there is a problem, because I have seen some catholic apologetics say the same thing I have.

You show my “replay”, but for the sake of the arguement, read 2 Peter 1 again, St.Peter’s issue is not warning about interpreting the scriptures. And to be exact, he was referring to the “prophecies of scriptures”. Prophecies fulfilled and that will be fulfilled by Jesus.

 

[KEVIN_WILCOX]

You say you have showed me church teaching. Maybe I missed it, but I have never seen any official Vatican statement saying 2 Peter 1:20-21 means one cannot approach the scriptures and interpret them.

If there is, then there is a problem, because I have seen some catholic apologetics say the same thing I have.

You show my “replay”, but for the sake of the arguement, read 2 Peter 1 again, St.Peter’s issue is not warning about interpreting the scriptures. And to be exact, he was referring to the “prophecies of scriptures”. Prophecies fulfilled and that will be fulfilled by Jesus.

**“I most firmly accept and embrace the apostolic and ecclesiastical traditions, and all other observances and constitutions of the (Catholic) Church. I likewise accept Holy Scripture according to that sense which Holy Mother Church has held and does hold, to whom it belongs to judge of the true meaning and interpretation of the Sacred Scriptures; I shall never accept or interpret them otherwise than according to the unanimous consent of the Fathers” (Tridentine Profession of Faith, 13 November 1564)

“Furthermore, to restrain irresponsible minds…no one, relying on his own prudence, twist Holy Scriptures in matters of faith and morals that pertain to the edifice of Christian doctrine, according to his own mind, contrary to the meaning that holy mother the Church has held and holds - since it belongs to her to judge the true meaning and interpretation of Holy Scripture - and that no one dare to interpret the Scriptures in a way contrary to the unanimous consensus of the Fathers, even though such interpretations be not intended for publication” (*The General Council of Trent, 4th Session, Decree on Sacred Books and on traditions to be received, 1546) ***

 

[MariaG]

Like I stated in my other post, the written Word was present for the Church already. The people of Israel had to listen to what written Torah said to do. They were not supposed to follow in the hypocrisy of those teachers. Jesus spoke alot of their hypocrisy. As far as this “interpretation” authoruty thing of the Moses seat, it is interesting to note, again, that the teachers of the Law in the OT could teach the entire Law in a single day, even while the people stood there and listened. When the teachers taught the Law as written, making it easy to understand, and would also walk the walk, the people should submit to their authority. This carries over to the shepards in the Church—

Interesting qualifiers you put on it. You teach beyond what Jesus said, who in fact told people to still listen to what they said, just not pay attention to what they do. Is your authority greater than Christ?

Of course not!

They people were to listen to what the written Torah said for them to do. They were not supposed to follow in their hypocrisy. Yes, they were not suppposed to do what the hypocrite teachers do. But some of the stuff they did came from the traditions of the elders.

Matthew 15:1-9
**Then some Pharisees and teachers of the law came to Jesus from Jerusalem and asked, “Why do your disciples break the tradition of the elders? They don’t wash their hands before they eat!” **
**Jesus replied, “And why do you break the command of God for the sake of your tradition? For God said, ‘Honor your father and mother’ and 'Anyone who curses his father or mother must be put to death.'But you say that if a man says to his father or mother, ‘Whatever help you might otherwise have received from me is a gift devoted to God,’ he is not to ‘honor his father’ with it. Thus you nullify the word of God for the sake of your tradition. You hypocrites! Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you: **
**” 'These people honor me with their lips, **
**but their hearts are far from me. **
**They worship me in vain; **
their teachings are but rules taught by men.’ "

Oh, boy, sorry, there is another teaching backed by scripture from Jesus.

And while we are on the “moses seat/authority” topic, it is important to see the result of those that blindly rely on traditions of men which leads to hypocrisy-

Matthew 23:13-15
**"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the kingdom of heaven in men’s faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to. **

**"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when he becomes one, you make him twice as much a son of hell as you are. **

I did not teach anything beyond what Jesus said.
In the OT, there were times when the people of Israel, all who were able, would listen to the written Law read for them. They were to know it for themselves and pass it on to the next generation unchanged from what they heard. False teachers could be picked out by the people if need be. This is not my qualifier, but is scripturally historical.

First of all, you seem to be under a false assumption. I absolutely agree with the Bible 100%. What I disagree with is your interpretation you have put on His Holy Word.

In fact, you interpretation flatly contradicts Christ.

Christ clearly calls the Pharisees hypocrites, yet also clearly tells his disciples to do what they say and not what they do.

Yet you qualify the words of Christ and say that we are supposed to follow them if they walk the walk. That is NOT what Christ said.

Just like scripture alone is nowhere in scriupture, neither is the teaching that we should submit to their authority but only if they “walk the walk”, in fact Christ says just the opposite telling them to do what they say and not what they do.

Maybe I am overstating your case? Maybe you mean something else by the below statement?

When the teachers taught the Law as written, making it easy to understand, and would also walk the walk, the people should submit to their authority.

God Bless,
Maria

 

[KEVIN_WILCOX]

'My sheep," says Jesus Christ, “hear my voice” (Jn 10:27)

“He that heareth you, heareth me, and he that despiseth you, despiseth me” (Luke 10:16)

“Much better is obedience than the victories of fools” (Eccl 4:17)

“Obey your prelates, and be subject to them; for they watch, as being to render an account of your souls: that they may do this with joy and not with grief” (Heb 13:17)

“An obedient man shall speak of victory” (Prov 21:28)

“It is like the sin of witchcraft, to rebel: and like the crime of idolatry, to refuse to obey” (1 Kgs 15:23)

 

[yankee_drifter]

Quoted from joe370:

Nope! Why would he? Jesus was ushering in something new - His church, to which he commanded to teach. Yankee, if you and I can authoritatively interpret the
bible as we see fit, without any need to obey our church leaders or defer to their authority, then what happens when you and I disagree on something regarding the teachings of Jesus? Who decides who is right and who is wrong?

What I was asking joe, since people in Jesus’ day had only the Old Testament, did He ever tell anyone to go to the Rabbi- that only the Rabbi has the authority to interpret Scripture? No, you’re correct, Jesus never said any such thing. Yet the roman catholic church says it alone has the authority to interpret Scripture. If you believe this, then why read the Bible? Was this why the Holy Scriptures were translated in Latin by order of the RCC and many couldn’t read it for themselves?

The Holy Spirit indwells the newly converted Christian.The Bible says our bodies are a temple.1 Corinthians 6:19 says: What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?"

I could not understand much of the Bible before I became a born-again Christian. Now my eyes are open and it makes sense. I am not leaning unto my own understanding but I submit to the Holy Spirit. Does this mean I always understand passages? No. But I study, read commentaries, a Bible dictionary, ask a pastor, etc. I do not blindly accept everything my church teaches. One needs to be a Berean Christian. In Acts 17:11 we read about the noble bereans in Thessalonica who searched the Scriptures daily to see if what Paul and others taught were true. To see if it lined up with what God revealed in His Word.

So to answer your question, Joe, if you and I disagree on something, instead of one of us saying my church is correct, go to the source of all Truth: God’s Word, the Holy Scriptures.

Romans 3:4 let God be true, but every man a liar

 

[Lev23]

First of all, you seem to be under a false assumption. I absolutely agree with the Bible 100%. What I disagree with is your interpretation you have put on His Holy Word.

Sorry, I never meant to imply you didn’t agree with the bible 100%.

In fact, you interpretation flatly contradicts Christ.

Christ clearly calls the Pharisees hypocrites, yet also clearly tells his disciples to do what they say and not what they do.

Yet you qualify the words of Christ and say that we are supposed to follow them if they walk the walk. That is NOT what Christ said.

Just like scripture alone is nowhere in scriupture, neither is the teaching that we should submit to their authority but only if they “walk the walk”, in fact Christ says just the opposite telling them to do what they say and not what they do.

Maybe I am overstating your case? Maybe you mean something else by the below statement?

God Bless,
Maria

I did not contradict Christ.
The people were supposed to “do” what the Pharisees told them, which was the written Law, the Torah that was read from Moses seat. The people were not supposed to “do” what the Pharisses “do”, because like Jesus said, they did not practice what they preached. The emphasis was to do what God has commanded them to do in the written scriptures. The teachers for the rest of Matthew chapter 23 got alot of “woes” from Jesus.
In the OT scriptures God spoke alot of concern for how the shepards of Israel led astray the people. Jesus spoke of the same hypocrisy in the Gospels.
**Luke 12:1
Meanwhile, when a crowd of many thousands had gathered, so that they were trampling on one another, Jesus began to speak first to his disciples, saying: "Be on your guard against the yeast of the Pharisees, which is hypocrisy. **

 

[yankee_drifter]

quote from joe370:

True, the bible is spiritually discerned, but I wouldn’t call it foolishness to the world.

I didn’t say it, Scripture does.1 Cor. 2:14: "But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned."

So, I can continue to sin my entire life, after confessing my sins to God just once, and God will remember my sins no more?

No, joe, you cannot continue sinning! As a Christian who loves the Lord, why would you want to? But we do sin and daily because that’s our fallen human nature. Whenever we lapse into sin we must confess it because it affects our relationship with God. It grieves the Holy Spirit who convicts us, and it can also hinder God from answering our prayers because of these sins in our lives. 1 John 1:9: ** By confessing your sin to God, you receive forgiveness and are freed from that sin.**

Isaiah 43:25 "I, even I, am He who blots out your transgressions for My own sake; and I will not remember your sins. 1 JOHN 1:9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

God doesn’t hold it against us and punish us for it in a temporary place after we die. We can go directly to God and confess. This restores fellowship with God. God said: “For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.” (Heb 8:12). Under the old covenant, sacrifices were repeated often. Under the new covenant, we have a full and final pardon thanks to Christ. One Sacrifice is enough to procure for all nations and ages, spiritual pardon, or being freed from punishment in the world to come. Read Hebrew 10:10-12, 17-18

We are no longer under law, but under grace. Paul said where sin abounds, more grace abounds. It is not a license to keep sinning! Its God’s immense love for humanity that He keeps pouring on grace.

Every time we repent of our sins, God is faithful to forgive. He never said: You’re absolved, but you still need to do penance, and when you die, I will still need to punish you in “purgatory”. That’s not forgiveness, Joe.

 

[Lampo]

…go to the source of all Truth: God’s Word, the Holy Scriptures.

Where in Scripture does it say the source of all truth is Scripture?

I know Scripture says that the pillar and bullwark of the truth is the Church. - 1 Tim. 3:15

 

[Church_Militant]

Yet the roman catholic church says it alone has the authority to interpret Scripture.

Because the very scriptures that you use as your authority teach that the Church is the pillar and ground of the truth and that that same church has been promised that the gates of hell will never prevail against it by Our Lord Jesus Christ Himself. And, also, there is no scripture anywhere in the Bible that claims for it the sole and ultimate authority that you ascribe to it. Again…even by a Sola Scriptura standard…SS fails epically to meet its own criterion for belief.

If you believe this, then why read the Bible?

Because the Church teaches that we should. Just as St. Jerome says, “Ignorance of scripture is ignorance of Christ.”

Was this why the Holy Scriptures were translated in Latin by order of the RCC and many couldn’t read it for themselves?

When was that done? 4th Century, right?

Was literacy widespread? No, it was not. What was the lingua franca of the time for those who could read? Why…Latin of course.

People couldn’t read the scriptures in Latin because they couldn’t read at all. Moreover, the printing press did not come along for another 1,000 years or so and only hand copied editions were available and were painstakingly slow to produce, so your argument has no merit and is based on fallacious thinking and not on historical facts.

That would be about the same as handing out English copies to people in Peru where they do not speak or read English, and many cannot read at all in any language.

The Holy Spirit indwells the newly converted Christian.The Bible says our bodies are a temple.1 Corinthians 6:19 says: What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?"

This is irrelevant to this topic…

I could not understand much of the Bible before I became a born-again Christian. Now my eyes are open and it makes sense. I am not leaning unto my own understanding but I submit to the Holy Spirit. Does this mean I always understand passages? No. But I study, read commentaries, a Bible dictionary, ask a pastor, etc. I do not blindly accept everything my church teaches.

So the vast majority of your interpretations are based upon extraBiblical sources, which despite your assertions that you believe only the Bible is actually a kind of defacto contradiction and abrogation of that doctrinal position.

One needs to be a Berean Christian. In Acts 17:11 we read about the noble bereans in Thessalonica who searched the Scriptures daily to see if what Paul and others taught were true. To see if it lined up with what God revealed in His Word.

That passage does not set a precedent. Nowhere in scripture does it teach that that was the only source, nor does St. Paul teach it is the only source to be studied when he writes to St. Timothy (2nd Timothy 2) to “Carefully study to show himself approved unto God”, (Verse 15) Look at the chapter in context.

So to answer your question, Joe, if you and I disagree on something, instead of one of us saying my church is correct, go to the source of all Truth: God’s Word, the Holy Scriptures.

Really? Except of course that that is not what the New Testament actually teaches in such a circumstance.
Look here:
Matthew18:15 But if thy brother shall offend against thee, go, and rebuke him between thee and him alone. If he shall hear thee, thou shalt gain thy brother. 16 And if he will not hear thee, take with thee one or two more: that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may stand. 17 And if he will not hear them: tell the church. And if he will not hear the church, let him be to thee as the heathen and publican. 18 Amen I say to you, whatsoever you shall bind upon earth, shall be bound also in heaven; and whatsoever you shall loose upon earth, shall be loosed also in heaven.

Romans 3:4 let God be true, but every man a liar

Galatians 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach a gospel to you besides that which we have preached to you, let him be anathema. 9 As we said before, so now I say again: If any one preach to you a gospel, besides that which you have received, let him be anathema.