It's Official: Pope Repeals Excommunications of SSPX Bishops!

[tuviskazinai]

Is the Faith worth so little? Such people already do not want to belong to the Church, should the Holy Father punish the SSPX for the sins of the infidels of the world or should he act justly regardless of human respect, the chasing after of which damns many to hell? Is the Church now just another political party?

I find serious fault with this line of reasoning. First of all, relegating the Jews to the category of “such people” blatantly disregards their spiritual closeness to God, as taught most recently and definitively (but not exclusively) in Nostra Aetate. But even more importantly, it blatantly disregards their intrinsic human dignity. I don’t think we can say of any non-Christian that just because he has chosen not to enter our Church and recite our Creed, he is an “infidel” who is any less worthy of respect and dignity than we are.

There are good and bad ways to “chase after” human respect, and I daresay that most of these ways do not damn people to Hell. But you use the term “human respect” disparagingly. Why?

I can accept that the reconciliation with the SSPX is worth the risk of ruffling feathers – as long as the Pope goes on to clarify that the Church does not endorse Williamson’s vicious comments. I believe that he may, because after all, he listened to the Jewish community’s protests of the Tridentine rite, and responded by changing “for the conversion of the Jews” to “for the Jewish people.” Right? So ecumenism and inter-religious sensitivity are not just for dissident Catholics!

But my last response to your post is…speaking of dissident Catholics…the SSPX was never punished “for the sins of infidels.” They were punished because they flagrantly disobeyed the Pope’s own orders. I am guessing that if a bishop tried to ordain a woman or a married priest, you would be outraged. But when Lefebvre tried to ordain his own dissident priests who said that the Vatican is being run by the Antichrist, you show sympathy for them? I really don’t understand that…?

Peace,
+AMDG+

 

[palmas85]

Okay I’ve found it.

Its not clear, though, if its saying the excommunications were not valid and so never happened, or if they were valid and are now lifted.

Good grief. Whatever they were they are no longer in effect. Get over it.

 

[eelpis]

I rejoice because this seems to signal the new Pentecost predicted at Vatican II by blessed John XXIII.

The Catholic Church is the same, the doctrines are the same.

Reconciliation and continuity, grace and mercy, splendor and beauty.

Nostra Aetate does not contradict previous teachings either.
No one says that the adherents of other religions (infidels) are lacking in the dignity given them through the fact that they are made in the image and likeness of God.

That does not change the fact that there is only one true religion.
The others might have some good qualities but that does not make them true.
The recent decline in missionary activity is a bittter friut of this blurring of the supernatural realities.

The Church still teaches that Christ is the universal Savior and that the Catholic Church is necessary for salvation. So instead of flattering let’s offer some real charity to them, Christ and the life of grace in his mystical body.

 

[palmas85]

I simply cannot understand why some people would see this as anything other than a good thing.

I’ll tell you why even if it is politically incorrect to do so. There are those on this forum who positively loathe and despise the Traditional or the Extraordinary Form of the Mass and everything associated with it. Quite frankly they hate it with a burning passion. They also loathe the SSPX, primarily due to their devotion to that form of the Mass. They will deliver other arguments for their hatred but the loathing of the Mass itself is almost always at the center of their rationale.

Thus the declaring of the excommunications to be ineffective really tears at them because the SSPX is the group primarily responsible for the Traditional or Extraordinary Form of the Mass even being around today. One of the major reasons that the indult proclaimed by Pope John Paul II was extended in the first place was for their benefit in an attempt to get them back into the Church.

So anything done that benefits the SSPX will be seen as a tacit endorsement of the Traditional or Extraordinary Form of the Mass in their eyes. And they cannot tolerate that, under any circumstances. Especially when you factor in the hatred they have for Archbishop Lefbvre himself. They fear now that his stance, far from being, how do they word it, the desperate acts of a disobedient French Bishop, instead will be seen as a valiant stand to hold on to the Church’s timeless traditions in the face of an onslaught of modernism.

As I said, it was probably politically incorrect to say that, but at times the truth needs to be said.

And lest anyone think that I am a SSPX supporter, I never have been. But I have never been their opponent either. I saw what they did, and I know why they did it. In many ways they have been proven to be correct. They still have some things they now must do, but if they do them, , then I think the whole episode will go down in history as a terrible terrible tragedy that need never have happened in the first place.

 

[Walking_Home]

I’ll tell you why even if it is politically incorrect to do so. There are those on this forum who positively loathe and despise the Traditional or the Extraordinary Form of the Mass and everything associated with it. Quite frankly they hate it with a burning passion. They also loathe the SSPX, primarily due to their devotion to that form of the Mass. They will deliver other arguments for their hatred but the loathing of the Mass itself is almost always at the center of their rationale.

Thus the declaring of the excommunications to be ineffective really tears at them because the SSPX is the group primarily responsible for the Traditional or Extraordinary Form of the Mass even being around today. One of the major reasons that the indult proclaimed by Pope John Paul II was extended in the first place was for their benefit in an attempt to get them back into the Church.

So anything done that benefits the SSPX will be seen as a tacit endorsement of the Traditional or Extraordinary Form of the Mass in their eyes. And they cannot tolerate that, under any circumstances. Especially when you factor in the hatred they have for Archbishop Lefbvre himself. They fear now that his stance, far from being, how do they word it, the desperate acts of a disobedient French Bishop, instead will be seen as a valiant stand to hold on to the Church’s timeless traditions in the face of an onslaught of modernism.

As I said, it was probably politically incorrect to say that, but at times the truth needs to be said.

And lest anyone think that I am a SSPX supporter, I never have been. But I have never been their opponent either. I saw what they did, and I know why they did it. In many ways they have been proven to be correct. They still have some things they now must do, but if they do them, , then I think the whole episode will go down in history as a terrible terrible tragedy that need never have happened in the first place.

---

Yes palmas85 – there are many, many tainted with the kind of hatred you describe —and I will add --one can get a glimpse of it in a few posts here in this thread.

 

[Christus_Rex_1]

---

Yes palmas85 – there are many, many tainted with the kind of hatred you describe —and I will add --one can get a glimpse of it in a few posts here in this thread.

But you get a better glimpse of it by reading post about the SSPX from the past. Today, most of the SSPX haters are in a state of despair and don’t have the energy to say much.

 

[ProVobis]

Well if that bishop had made those comments in Austria he would be prosecuted…it’s illegal in Austria to deny the holocaust. Other than that-are sedevacanists and members of SSPX one in the same?

As long as we’re going to be technical on all the issues here, is Bishop Williamson denying the holocaust or denying the number of 6,000,000? Big difference, however most don’t see it that way.

 

[Walking_Home]

But you get a better glimpse of it by reading post about the SSPX from the past. Today, most of the SSPX haters are in a state of despair and don’t have the energy to saw much.

---

I am quite familiar with what has transpired in the past threads–but one can’t help but notice --shall I say the “gnashing of teeth” at the Pope’s act --in this thread.

 

[LUISV]

I’m confused…I was reading somewhere that just because the decree has been lifted, it doesn’t mean that relations have been normalized? Forgive my teenage ignorance lol but I’m just slightly confused…

Either way, this is indeed a wonderful day!

FROM DICI:
"In this new atmosphere, we have the firm hope to obtain soon the recognition of the rights of Catholic Tradition

Menzingen, January 24, 2009

+Bernard Fellay"

I think there is still some work before there is full normailzation.

 

[eelpis]

As long as we’re going to be technical on all the issues here, is Bishop Williamson denying the holocaust or denying the number of 6,000,000? Big difference, however most don’t see it that way.

He did not deny that Jews were killed by the Nazis in the concentration camps. He said he thought the number might be smaller, and that gas was not used.

This is a question about historical facts. It can be checked by historians. It does not make him a heretic it just makes him seem like a baffoon and seriously lacking in empathy.

 

[aggiecatholic05]

As long as we’re going to be technical on all the issues here, is Bishop Williamson denying the holocaust or denying the number of 6,000,000? Big difference, however most don’t see it that way.

i could easily be wrong hre but i always took it as the numbers he disputed, not the events. and honestly with what little record keeping there was i wouldnt be suprised if the number were 1 million or 12 million. in my mind disputing the number is hardly if even wrong as opposed to disputing the occurences.

either way its a good day.

 

[eelpis]

It’s a good day , but I’m a little sorry for the bishop of Stockholm who recently stated on national television that the SSPX’ers are excommunicated. I guess even bishops have to revise their opinions every now and then.

 

[palmas85]

i could easily be wrong hre but i always took it as the numbers he disputed, not the events. and honestly with what little record keeping there was i wouldnt be suprised if the number were 1 million or 12 million. in my mind disputing the number is hardly if even wrong as opposed to disputing the occurences.

either way its a good day.

The Germans were actually meticulous record keepers, at least in the camps themselves. . That has been proven even more so with the somewhat recent release of a number of previously classified sources of information. Not only did they record the numbers that were executed, but their names, ethnicities, place of birth family members, personal possessions confiscated and in some cases their physical attributes, tattoos etc.

Whether or not the actual number of those executed is ever actually known the carnage was horrific and must never be forgotten or minimized. Evil walked the Earth and had dominion big time in those years

On a personal tangent though, I would ask why there has never been the same moral outrage raised about the Japanese treatment of those under its domination during the same period. I know that the Japanese practiced a brutal form of suppression in the Philippines, I lost many relatives in that one and they positively brutalized those in the camps. This not even mentioning what they did to women. Why is this so ignored? Because their oppression was towards all instead of being more ethnically based?

 

[Walking_Home]

Interesting article:

ihr.org/jhr/v21/v21n3p24_weber.html

 

[Christus_Rex_1]

On a personal tangent though, I would ask why there has never been the same moral outrage raised about the Japanese treatment of those under its domination during the same period.

What about the tens of millions of Gentiles murdered by the Communists in the 20th century? Why don’t we ever hear about this?

 

[aggiecatholic05]

Why is this so ignored? Because their oppression was towards all instead of being more ethnically based?

i think thats part of it, that and Hitler could have won the war and exported what he was doing worldwide without japan. japan couldnt have won without germany.

and thank you for correcting me. i was reffering to more of the storm trooper death squad middle of the night stuff, and its hard to tell with many people if they fled or died.

yes we shouldnt minimize it, but everybody has an opinion. for today lets stick with the good parts and hash out the details later.

 

[malphono]

This thread has gone way off topic. It’s not about WWII atrocities.

 

[ProVobis]

I simply cannot understand why some people would see this as anything other than a good thing.

Because there are (and were) these people who are so opposed to the Latin Mass that they would say or do anything to get their way, including forcing the Pope to excommunicate whomever he has to.

No doubt these same people are now fearing discussion of mortal sins and tightening some rules, such as extending the communion fast and making meatless Fridays obligatory again. Probably won’t but it won’t be the end of the world if it does.

 

[tuviskazinai]

Interesting article:

ihr.org/jhr/v21/v21n3p24_weber.html

Be careful of them…they are a really antisemitic journal run by pseudo-scholars whom no one in academia takes seriously. This article is not very convincing, either. It basis all its serious claims on dubious sources, and then surrounds them with a flurry of other convincing-looking quotations that do nothing to prove the main point…

 

[tuviskazinai]

I rejoice because this seems to signal the new Pentecost predicted at Vatican II by blessed John XXIII.

The Catholic Church is the same, the doctrines are the same.

Reconciliation and continuity, grace and mercy, splendor and beauty.

Nostra Aetate does not contradict previous teachings either.
No one says that the adherents of other religions (infidels) are lacking in the dignity given them through the fact that they are made in the image and likeness of God.

That does not change the fact that there is only one true religion.
The others might have some good qualities but that does not make them true.
The recent decline in missionary activity is a bittter friut of this blurring of the supernatural realities.

The Church still teaches that Christ is the universal Savior and that the Catholic Church is necessary for salvation. So instead of flattering let’s offer some real charity to them, Christ and the life of grace in his mystical body.

Thank you for this answer!