It's the Occupation, Stupid

[unafraid]

It is racist to point out the cowardice of Palestinian leadership to send their children to blow themselves up while they were wining and dining all across Europe?

Wait a minute. To use the blood and treasure of America, and her innocents, sent off to bleed for things which are not of their own inherent self-interest, is not not duplicitous and cowardly on the part of the Israelis?

Every penny lost, and each drop of heroic blood, each drop mind you, spent defending a cause which is in no way our own, has been the scam of the century. Our brave military has been duped. We have fought a proxy war.

If we are to be Israel’s mercenary army, shouldn’t we be paid for the deed. At last count we have spent 90 billion on Israel. That is an obcenity! It cannot continue.

You claim that the Palestinian leadership wines and dines, while the blood spills. What do you think the Israeli leadership is doing? And they do it on our dime! Which is worse?

 

[gilliam]

Thanks Gilliam. I guess Golda Meir was accurate in using Arab, then.

Yes Arab is correct.

Also the OP is correct that many are upset that we are currently in their country. We aren’t there to colonize, but we are there to change their national governments (at least in Iraq and Afghanistan). So it is natural that many people in the country resent that. However that isn’t the reason for 9/11. IMHO, the reason for 9/11 was that we were supporting governments that al-Qaeda disagreed with, including many Islamic ones, like Saudi Arabia, Kuwait and Egypt.

We have to remember that to a fundamentalist Muslim (and probably all Muslims) the most important regions of the world are:

Saudi Arabia (site of Mecca and Medina) and Iraq (site of Baghdad and an early home of the Islamic Caliphate)

 

[Rich_Olszewski]

Wait a minute. To use the blood and treasure of America, and her innocents, sent off to bleed for things which are not of their own inherent self-interest, is not not duplicitous and cowardly on the part of the Israelis?

Every penny lost, and each drop of heroic blood, each drop mind you, spent defending a cause which is in no way our own, has been the scam of the century. Our brave military has been duped. We have fought a proxy war.

If we are to be Israel’s mercenary army, shouldn’t we be paid for the deed. At last count we have spent 90 billion on Israel. That is an obcenity! It cannot continue.

You claim that the Palestinian leadership wines and dines, while the blood spills. What do you think the Israeli leadership is doing? And they do it on our dime! Which is worse?

I have no love for either side in that conflict.

 

[rlg94086]

Yes Arab is correct.

Also the OP is correct that many are upset that we are currently in their country. We aren’t there to colonize, but we are there to change their national governments (at least in Iraq and Afghanistan). So it is natural that many people in the country resent that. However that isn’t the reason for 9/11. IMHO, the reason for 9/11 was that we were supporting governments that al-Qaeda disagreed with, including many Islamic ones, like Saudi Arabia, Kuwait and Egypt.

We have to remember that to a fundamentalist Muslim (and probably all Muslims) the most important regions of the world are:

Saudi Arabia (site of Mecca and Medina) and Iraq (site of Baghdad and an early home of the Islamic Caliphate)

So, like the rape victim, we were asking for it. Is that the gist of the OP?

 

[gilliam]

So, like the rape victim, we were asking for it. Is that the gist of the OP?

When I read the article in the OP I was remedied of what the Confederate Soldier said when asked by a US soldier who just captured him. The US soldier asked, “why are you fighting us?” realizing that the US was fighting to keep the US intact and to eliminate slavery. The Confederate soldier replied, “Because your here.”

None of this is new to our generals running the war.

For those who are interested in this topic should read the Army Counterinsurgency Manual:
fas.org/irp/doddir/army/fm3-24.pdf

 

[Nine_Two]

Golda Meir having made that stupid racist comment after rejecting a peace offer from Egypt more favourable than what Israel eventually settled for after Egypt went to war to get its territory back.

What did Egypt offer that was more favorable to Israel than giving up claims to the Gaza Strip, and ceasing sponsorship of Israel’s enemies, in exchange for the Sinai Peninsula?

 

[gilliam]

As for the article in the OP, why is it that almost all Suicide bombers happen to be Muslim?.

Suicide bombers were used extensively in the rebellion in Sri Lanka by non-Muslims. But you are correct, that it has been used a lot by Muslims. And, yes, it is a twisting of traditonal Muslim teaching. Even the Hassassin didn’t use suicide bombing and would have been, IMHO, discusted by it.

 

[stanmaxkolbe]

They also used them on the Americans brainwashing little kids to do it.

A little kid 7 or 8 years old for six months stood outside the fence selling candy and cold soda pops from her ice chest to American soldiers one day she pulled a wire killed herself and seven G.I.'s.

 

[Kadaveri]

What did Egypt offer that was more favorable to Israel than giving up claims to the Gaza Strip, and ceasing sponsorship of Israel’s enemies, in exchange for the Sinai Peninsula?

Egypt’s peace offer in 1971 was almost identical to what Israel eventually accepted in 1979, but Israel initially rejected it because in the words of Moshe Dayan “it’s better to have Sharm El-Sheikh without peace than to have peace without Sharm El-Sheikh”. Egypt repeatedly warned Israel that its refusal to make peace and withdraw from Egyptian territory would lead to war. Israel laughed it off, until eventually Egypt did as promised in 1973 and went to war to get its territory back, inflicting a heavy blow on Israel which lost 3,000 soldiers and barely held out thanks to American assistance. Israel then realised trying to conquer Egyptian territory was not smart, and accepted Egypt’s 1971 offer with one extra article, that Israel give autonomy to the Palestinians (effectively recognising them). The whole episode was a near disaster for Israel and is not an example to be followed.

 

[mrS4ntA]

What country were we occupying on 9/11?

Some of these were true then, too:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_military_bases

 

[mrS4ntA]

What? The United States is evil, isn’t it? Especially if those D##n Republicans ever take control. If the United States didn’t exist, there wouldn’t be any terrorists, right? I’m confused.

I spy, with my little eye, a strawman!

 

[autdrew]

Some of these were true then, too:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_military_bases

Are you claiming that by having SOFA agreements with various countries, who allow us to have military bases on their soil, we are occupying them? I will give you Iraq & Afghanistan but give me a break! When something happens in the world & we dont respond, we get the blame for anything bad that happens. If something happens & we do respond but it is deemed not fast enough, we get the blame for anything bad that happens. If something happens & we do respond & we respond quickly because we have agreements with some countries to be nearby, then we are occupiers & imperialists?
Lets say we roll up our forces & vow to never venture outside the US & for example, North Korea attacks South Korea. We say nope, cant help, it would contribute to terrorism, we would then be vilified for being the only world superpower & refusing to help our allies. Horrible, evil US cant do anything right & when we try, dont try, dont try well enough, we are always the bad ones.

 

[Vixit]

From the article:
*More than 95 percent of all suicide attacks are in response to foreign occupation, according to *extensive research that we conducted at the University of Chicago’s Project on Security and Terrorism, where we examined every one of the over 2,200 suicide attacks across the world from 1980 to the present day. As the United States has occupied Afghanistan and Iraq, which have a combined population of about 60 million, total suicide attacks worldwide have risen dramatically – from about 300 from 1980 to 2003, to 1,800 from 2004 to 2009. Further, over 90 percent of suicide attacks worldwide are now anti-American.

Ok let’s get this straight according to this obvious left-wing college professor who IMHO doesn’t have a clue about military strategy or military history to stop the attacks this is what America needs to do:

· It’s all Americans fault; say we’re sorry.
· When attacked run with the tail between our legs withdraw all our forces around the world.
· Hide behind our borders then all attacks will stop.
· Peace and Love, Peace and Love.

He needs to explain the Major at Fort Hood who murdered 14 people he was never under any occupation he did it in the name of Allah, or the grenade attack by an NCO in Kuwait both are American citizens never occupied and both did it in the name of Islam.

As I stated before on these boards I’ve been to the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia and the majority of the Saudi people are good people and would not do a suicide bombing.

However when you put little children in schools and brainwash them that you are hero to God if you do a suicide bombing what little kid would not jump at the chance to honor God I know I would have if I was taught that.

Of course what to you thing of the 9/11 bombers who before they did it went to strip clubs and escort services to have sex before they honored God.

Well, numbers don’t lie, and attacks have gone up proportionally since our occupation of Iraq in '90 (remember Desert Shield?), and various other small, relatively harmless countries in history. Google 'U.S. Wars for all the details. That also answers the question of the other poster that said, “Which country did we occupy on 9/11?” The answer is, Iraq. People need to stop the knee-jerk patriotism. I love my country, which is why I look honestly and objectively at its history, so that I might try to keep it from committing the same mistakes over and over again.

As for the Ft. Hood guy and others. Well, I just assume they were sick of seeing how their fellow religious brothers were treated. Hey, abortion clinic bombers do it for religious reasons too, don’t they? But I can empathize with them- I’ve wanted to smack down an abortionist, too.

 

[Vixit]

To be fair this is a one sided opinion by a left leaning college professor so I don’t care a rats butt about the percentages—that guy doesn’t have clue.

Statistics can be so adjusted into the persons favor to agree with their paper/article/opinion.

Pape graduated summa cum laude and Phi Beta Kappa from the University of Pittsburgh in 1982[1] where he was a Harry S Truman Scholar from the state of Pennsylvania, majoring in political science, and earned his Ph.D. from the University of Chicago in 1988 in the same field. During his doctoral program he was a teaching assistant for a class taught by the high-profile realist international relations scholar John Mearsheimer. He taught international relations at Dartmouth College from 1994 to 1999 and air power strategy at the United States Air Force’s School of Advanced Airpower Studies from 1991 to 1994. Since 1999, he has taught at the University of Chicago, where he is now tenured.[1] In the past he has done significant work on coercive air power and economic sanctions. He defines the focus of his current work as “the causes of suicide terrorism and the politics of unipolarity.”[1]. In addition to his research and teaching duties, Pape has been the director of the graduate studies department of political science as well as the chair of the Committee on International Relations (University of Chicago). Since 1999 he has co-directed the Program on International Security Policy with Mearsheimer[2], and since 2004 he has directed CPOST.

Yah, sounds pretty liberal to me. He obviously knows nothing, has no experience. That explains why he taught for the Air Force- they are the most liberal, ignorant bunch in the military (with apologies to my brother-in-law)

 

[Vixit]

What? The United States is evil, isn’t it? Especially if those D##n Republicans ever take control. If the United States didn’t exist, there wouldn’t be any terrorists, right? I’m confused.

Cop logic? Or a joke? I can’t tell you how many I know just like that. Self-centered, obnoxious, sarcastic, paranoid, overly-aggressive, (yet at the same time incredibly cowardly), sociopathic, grown children who need any excuse to harass someone. I heard so many cops are alcoholic wife beaters because they don’t care about helping people, they just have an overwhelming desire to make others follow the rules. Is that true?

 

[TheTrueCentrist]

Yah, sounds pretty liberal to me. He obviously knows nothing, has no experience. That explains why he taught for the Air Force- they are the most liberal, ignorant bunch in the military (with apologies to my brother-in-law)

Liberalism is in the eye of the beholder, evidently. Most people on this forum would be hard pressed to find a mainstream figure more conservative than they themselves are.

 

[pete_29]

I spy, with my little eye, a strawman!

I’m stupid. What’s a strawman.

 

[tomarin]

What country were we occupying on 9/11?

Correct me if I’m wrong, Gilliam (and incidentally I’m not at all sure I’m convinced by the study cited in the OP), but wasn’t one of the original reasons given by the Qaeda leadership themselves for 9/11 the stationing of U.S. troops on Saudi soil – which they might regard (but we obviously do not) as an occupation?

Troops which after 9/11 the administration quietly removed giving the appearance at least that their strategy worked; i.e. they got what they wanted.

 

[pete_29]

Thanks. I’m still not sure I understand it, but that’s my problem. I thought what I wrote was a sarcasm.

 

[pete_29]

Cop logic? Or a joke? I can’t tell you how many I know just like that. Self-centered, obnoxious, sarcastic, paranoid, overly-aggressive, (yet at the same time incredibly cowardly), sociopathic, grown children who need any excuse to harass someone. I heard so many cops are alcoholic wife beaters because they don’t care about helping people, they just have an overwhelming desire to make others follow the rules. Is that true?

First, I wasn’t a cop, I was a correctional officer. Second, I stopped being an alchoholic when the hangovers started lasting more than one day. Third, yes, I beat my wife. Fortunatly for me, she’s not very good at chess. Why all this hostility toward cops? Did one of them bust you while you were rolling an old lady for her social security check?