I've officially left the Church

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Tietjen said:
Yes, it was. I use sarcasm probably a bit too much. I am however, a nice person when ya get to know me. 😃

What’s true? That Catholics aren’t Christian? LOL Perhaps I was correct about it being an adult thing. You are simply too ridiculously young to be having this conversation. 20 years from now, you may look back on what you are saying and will probably become rather red-faced at what spewed forth from you mouth… errr… fingers. The fact that you don’t care if you are insulting others proves two things. One that you are in fact rude and two that you are what?.. doing God’s work? WWJD? Insult others? I think not. LOL. Peace misguided bro.😃
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…True that I am a Christian not a Catholic. Maybe you should try to understand what I say before you insult it.

WWJD? no idea what that is.
 
onetimeposter said:
The early Church did not use private auricular confession. Public confession was the practice of the day. Auricular confession wasn’t even mentioned for the first 4 centuries!

If the Church was as authentic as they claim…why not a return to public confession?
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So, are you suggesting that in order for a Priest to be able to forgive a sin the confession must be made in public? I see no Biblical basis for your assertion. However, for those who might believe that the early Church did not support the concept of Priests having the authority to forgive sin I have included the following:

St. Augustine (d. 430) warns the faithful: “Let us not listen to those who deny that the Church of God has power to forgive all sins” (De agon. Christ., iii).

St. Ambrose (d. 397) rebukes the Novatianists who “professed to show reverence for the Lord by reserving to Him alone the power of forgiving sins. Greater wrong could not be done than what they do in seeking to rescind His commands and fling back the office He bestowed. . . . The Church obeys Him in both respects, by binding sin and by loosing it; for the Lord willed that for both the power should be equal” (De poenit., I, ii,6).

Again St. Ambrose teaches that this power was to be a function of the priesthood. “It seemed impossible that sins should be forgiven through penance; Christ granted this (power) to the Apostles and from the Apostles it has been transmitted to the office of priests” (op. cit., II, ii, 12).

Again St. Ambrose - The power to forgive extends to all sins: “God makes no distinction; He promised mercy to all and to His priests He granted the authority to pardon without any exception” (op. cit., I, iii, 10).

Against the same heretics St. Pacian, Bishop of Barcelona (d. 390), wrote to Sympronianus, one of their leaders: “This (forgiving sins), you say, only God can do. Quite true: but what He does through His priests is the doing of His own power” (Ep. I ad Sympron, 6 in P.L., XIII, 1057).

In the East during the same period we have the testimony of St. Cyril of Alexandria (d. 447): “Men filled with the spirit of God (i.e. priests) forgive sins in two ways, either by admitting to baptism those who are worthy or by pardoning the penitent children of the Church” (In Joan., 1, 12 in P.G., LXXIV, 722).

St. John Chrysostom (d. 407) after declaring that neither angels nor archangels have received such power, and after showing that earthly rulers can bind only the bodies of men, declares that the priest’s power of forgiving sins “penetrates to the soul and reaches up to heaven”. Wherefore, he concludes, “it were manifest folly to condemn so great a power without which we can neither obtain heaven nor come to the fulfillment of the promises. . . . Not only when they (the priests) regenerate us (baptism), but also after our new birth, they can forgive us our sins” (De sacred., III, 5 sq.).

St. Athanasius (d. 373): “As the man whom the priest baptizes is enlightened by the grace of the Holy Ghost, so does he who in penance confesses his sins, receive through the priest forgiveness in virtue of the grace of Christ” (Frag. contra Novat. in P. G., XXVI, 1315).
 
Wow, my heart breaks…
I struggled with the thought of the REAL PRESENCE before, but I know that Christ is TRUELY PRESENT !
I agree with the person who said Catholic IS Christian! Christian means Christ Like…
The funny thing is we humans love to tell the Lord how to run HIS show…the more years go on the more rebellious we become.
The whole, if it feels good do it…Look where it has gotten our society…
We NEED guidance and structure. No matter what path in life we take, there is ALWAYS someone to give an account to.

I wish you only love peace and blessings~
 
Verisimilitude said:
What distinctions do yo umake between the two?

What Would Jesus Do?
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Jesus would probably just ignore you, or say something really suprising.

Christian and Catholic? I don’t know, I am a Christian not a Catholic.
 
ChristianKnight said:
This shows he gave it to his apostles, not successors…

Honestly, in none of them does it say the disciple’s successors will be able to do this. Sorry, but I am just telling you what I am seeing.
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There is a large corpus of writings from the early Christians. Would you please be so kind to show us from those writings an example of early Christians who hold your position?

/www.newadvent.org/fathers/

:coffeeread:
 
Roy5 said:
**
3. Some of us are quickly dismissed as rebels, egotists, anti-Catholics or protestant because we earnestly want to see Catholicism become more of an ‘open tent’ that permits a freer expression of opinion, allows wider debate of major issues, becomes an instrument for increased ecumenism, and displays more tolerance for other faiths, whether Christian or non-Christian. If Catholicism is God’s chosen vehicle of spiritual truth, why are some so fearful of this? Surely God will protect the Church.**

The Church is already very open. This particular site tends to merry-go-round on the same issues over and over again, which can make it seem like we only have one way of thinking - but if you go to all-Catholic bulletin boards where Protestants are not encouraged (and thus, the same old arguments don’t keep popping up over and over), you see a much wider range of discussion - way more freedom of thought than you find really anywhere else, unless maybe at a liberal (in the old fashioned sense of “liberal” meaning free-thinking) University. 🙂

By contrast, my experience of Protestantism is that each little group has its one or two topics of interest on which it has already chosen a side (pro-abortion, pro-birth control, once saved always saved, pre-millenial, post-millenial, speaking in tongues, or what have you) and any “dialog” there may be is geared towards promoting a particular point of view.

I have not found this in the Catholic Church - there are a great many areas of discussion where people are free to follow their own path, and there are even Third Orders that people can join, to get a more formal education in the ideas that they are thinking about.
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Why should my opinoin have to be in agreement with the early church fathers?
 
greentea07 said:
I’ve seen a lot of casual references to praying that God will have mercy on this man and his family and so on and so forth. I’m just throwing this out there…but I highly doubt we need to pray to God to have mercy on this man’s soul for his decision given that he calls himself Christian. Will there be only Catholics in heaven? We are not qualified to judge the state of this man’s soul.
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Using your reasoning, who then should be prayed for? With all due respect, we are NOT judging a soul simply because we pray for the individual. Only God knows his heart. That doen’t mean that if we know something to be wrong (leaving God’s Church) we shouldn’t pray that God guides him back.
 
Well, onetimeposter, the decision to leave the Catholic Church is yours alone and between you and God. I too left the Catholic Church and was away for many years, but I did find my way back.

Still, your decision to become a Protestant has been made, and I am sorry to see that. I won’t patronzie you by saying I will pray for you, for I pray for all who fall away, not just you. Keep in mind what Fr. Andrew Greeley once said: you can leave the Catholic Church for its perceived flaws and go join another church or embrace some other philosophy, but just remember that at the moment you do so, it will cease to be perfect and become very, very flawed.

Finally, don’t make yourself into a tool if you decide to stay here on Catholic Forums. Otherwise, I will call you on it. :yup:
 
ChristianKnight said:
Why should my opinoin have to be in agreement with the early church fathers?
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Why should it be different? Christian belief has not changed for two millennium. Why would a modern departure from perennial truth be worthy of consideration? Truth doesn’t change over time.
 
ChristianKnight said:
Why should my opinoin have to be in agreement with the early church fathers?
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Because they were taught by the Apostles in person. Their teachings are the teachings that were given to them in person by the Apostles - so, by looking at what the Early Fathers taught, we can see what the Apostles were telling to them.
 
buckr02 said:
I basically look at like this:

Imagine some author has a story in their head that they must tell the world. They know all the details of the story; they know all the characters and events and places, etc. So they begin writing the story so that they can share it with the rest of the world. At the same time, they tell all their friends and family the story and what a certain event means, and what a certain character is like, etc.

Then along comes some wise-alec who says, “you know what? I don’t need to know what the author is saying about the story. He went off his rocker a few years ago and is distorting the story. Who is he to say what the books he wrote mean? All I need is his books and from there, I can make my own conclusions.”

So this guy takes the books and hides from the author and begins to tell everyone what HE thinks the stories mean, even though the author is trying to tell everyone he is wrong and that there is more than just the stories that were written.

I’ll just stop there, because I think that paints the picture clearly enough…
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👍
 
buckr02 said:
I basically look at like this:

Imagine some author has a story in their head that they must tell the world. They know all the details of the story; they know all the characters and events and places, etc. So they begin writing the story so that they can share it with the rest of the world. At the same time, they tell all their friends and family the story and what a certain event means, and what a certain character is like, etc.

Then along comes some wise-alec who says, “you know what? I don’t need to know what the author is saying about the story. He went off his rocker a few years ago and is distorting the story. Who is he to say what the books he wrote mean? All I need is his books and from there, I can make my own conclusions.”

So this guy takes the books and hides from the author and begins to tell everyone what HE thinks the stories mean, even though the author is trying to tell everyone he is wrong and that there is more than just the stories that were written.

I’ll just stop there, because I think that paints the picture clearly enough…
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This puts me in mind of a story I once heard about author Stephen Lewis. His local community college was putting on a course about his work. Intrigued, he decided to sign up for the course anonymously. He was more and more amazed to hear the teacher’s interpretation of his work, and often tried to correct her, though without revealing his identity.

He failed the class.

I think Jesus would fail a lot of Protestant seminary classes, too. 😛
 
[ChristianKnight]
The scripture used to back confession, or the one I saw anyways, said he gave the ability to his disciples, not to their descendants.
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Christ established the priesthood and gave permanacy to it.

Matthew 16:17-19
Blessed are you, Simon, son of Jonah. For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my heavenly father. And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it. I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven; and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

2 Corinthians 2,10
And to whom you have pardoned any thing, I also. For, what I have pardoned, if I have pardoned any thing, for your sakes have I done it in the person of Christ.

2 Corinthians 5,18-20
But all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Christ and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation. For God indeed was in Christ, reconciling the world to himself, not imputing to them their sins. And he hath placed in us the word of reconciliation. For Christ therefore we are ambassadors, God as it were exhorting by us, for Christ, we beseech you, be reconciled to God.

1 Tim 4:14
“Do not neglect the gift you have which was conferred on you through the prophetic word with the imposition of hands of the presbyterate.”

2 Tim 1:6
For this reason, I remind you to stir into flame the gift of God that you have through the imposition of my hands.

Ignatius of Antioch:

“For as many as are of God and of Jesus Christ are also with the bishop. And as many as shall, in the exercise of penance, return into the unity of the Church, these, too, shall belong to God, that they may live according to Jesus Christ” (Letter to the Philadelphians 3 [A.D. 110]).

Cyprian of Carthage:

“Of how much greater faith and salutary fear are they who . . . confess their sins to the priests of God in a straightforward manner and in sorrow, making an open declaration of conscience. . . . I beseech you, brethren, let everyone who has sinned confess his sin while he is still in this world, while his confession is still admissible, while the satisfaction and remission made through the priests are still pleasing before the Lord.” (The Lapsed 28)

Cyprian of Carthage:
“For although in smaller sins sinners may do penance for a set time, and according to the rules of discipline come to public confession, and by imposition of the hand of the bishop and clergy receive the right of communion: now with their time still unfulfilled, while persecution is still raging, while the peace of the Church itself is not vet restored, they are admitted to communion, and their name is presented; and while the penitence is not yet performed, confession is not yet made, the hands Of the bishop and clergy are not yet laid upon them, the eucharist is given to them; although it is written, ‘Whosoever shall eat the bread and drink the cup of the Lord unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.’” (To the Clergy, 9 (16):2)

John Chrysostom:

“Priests have received a power which God has given neither to angels nor to archangels. It was said to them: ‘Whatsoever you shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatsoever you shall loose, shall be loosed.’ Temporal rulers have indeed the power of binding; but they can only bind the body. Priests, in contrast, can bind with a bond which pertains to the soul itself and transcends the very heavens. Did [God] not give them all the powers of heaven? ‘Whose sins you shall forgive,’ he says, ‘they are forgiven them; whose sins you shall retain, they are retained.’ What greater power is there than this? The Father has given all judgment to the Son. And now I see the Son placing all this power in the hands of men [Matt. 10:40; John 20:21–23]. They are raised to this dignity as if they were already gathered up to heaven” (The Priesthood 3:5 [A.D. 387]).

Augustine (c. 395 AD):
When you shall have been baptized, keep to a good life in the commandments of God so that you may preserve your baptism to the very end. I do not tell you that you will live here without sin, but they are venial sins which this life is never without. Baptism was instituted for all sins. For light sins, without which we cannot live, prayer was instituted…But do not commit those sins on account of which you would have to be separated from the body of Christ. Perish the thought! For those whom you see doing penance have committed crimes, either adultery or some other enormities. That is why they are doing penance. If their sins were light, daily prayer would suffice to blot them out…In the Church, therefore, there are three ways in which sins are forgiven: in baptisms, in prayer, and in the greater humility of penance. (Sermon to Catechumens on the Creed 7:15; 8:16).
 
Verisimilitude said:
Many Christians support positions such as abortion, offensive war, and political philosophies that appear non Christ-like. The picture painted of a Christian to the non-Christian world by the non-Catholic Christian is not a view I care to be associated with in many respects. I think the distinction is fine.
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I apologize. I don’t understand your comment. Are you saying that you’re in favor of Catholics being excluded from the title “Christian?” or are you saying that Catholics are also Christians. I support the latter, the poster I was responding to supports the prior. God bless.
 
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