James, Brother of Jesus?

[elvisman]

that’s a red herring. First, Paul uses the term cousin and brother in scripture (so Aramaic is not necessary, since Paul only wrote in Koine Greek). Moreover, most of the NT authors wrote in Koine Greek (i.e. Luke was a Greek physician from Antioch and allegedly wrote both Luke and Acts).

Now Jesus’ mother and brothers came to see him, but they were not able to get near him because of the crowd (Luke 8:19).

They all joined together constantly in prayer, along with the women and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with his brothers (Acts 1:14).

I saw none of the other apostles—only James, the Lord’s brother (Galatians 1:19).

*My fellow prisoner Aristarchus sends you his greetings, as does Mark, the cousin of Barnabas. (You have received instructions about him; if he comes to you, welcome him) (Col. 4:10). *

The Koine Greek for cousin is: Anepsios (and can only mean cousin). The Koine Greek for brother is: Adelphos (which can mean brother or step-brother in the familial sense, or people united by a bond of affection like fellow countrymen, a fellow believer, fellow soldier, etc.).

Weak argument.
I already showed you that the Septuagint usage for Adelphos was used more loosely and that’t what the writers of the NT were used to. **They were raised using the Septuagint (so was Jesus) and that can be illustrated by their dozens or so quotes from the Septuagint OT in their writings.

 

[elvisman]

are you fluent in English? Because if you are then reread my post … I just did give examples of where they’re wrong.

I doubt it all … but that’s not the point is it? What you’re saying is that Paul wasn’t very careful in his choice of words & god apparently inspired poor grammar.

Read my post #37 to ppasa316, then come try to argue your point because you have shown nothing but opinion and an extremely uninformed knowledge of the Post Septuagint Greek usage of Adelphos.

 

[humble_in_doubt]

Well, I wouldn’t say, fluent, but thanks.

I wouldn’t say fluent either

The problem with these guys is that they won’t even do a rudimentary study of the post-Septuagint Greek usage of these words - then try to argue their point.

where did you get your degree in Hellenic Greek from? Moreover, it doesn’t matter because your logic is fallacious. In the Septuagint “brother” (ach) is almost always used to denote a brother in the familial sense. It’s used hundreds of times in that context and only a small handful of times in other contexts; and it’s not used to denote cousin.

They assume they know more than the Early church Fathers, yet they are coming from a position of ignorance

• and arrogance.

the problem is not a single apostolic father averred perpetual virginity. I’ve read all the letters of Clement, Ignatius, and Polycarp and the only thing that can be found is support for the virgin birth. Origen attested to perpetual virginity; but of course Origen was ruled a heretic by the church. It wasn’t until the fourth century that most church fathers (i.e. Ambrose, Jerome) came to agree on perpetual virginity.

 

[humble_in_doubt]

Weak argument.
I already showed you that the Septuagint usage for Adelphos was used more loosely and that’t what the writers of the NT were used to. **They were *raised ***using the Septuagint (so was Jesus) and that can be illustrated by their dozens or so quotes from the Septuagint OT in their writings.

you haven’t shown anything … except that you like to toss around the term “I’ve already showed” quite a bit

 

[tobinatorstark]

I wouldn’t say fluent either

where did you get your degree in Hellenic Greek from? Moreover, it doesn’t matter because your logic is fallacious. In the Septuagint “brother” (ach) is almost always used to denote a brother in the familial sense. It’s used hundreds of times in that context and only a small handful of times in other contexts; and it’s not used to denote cousin.

the problem is not a single apostolic father averred perpetual virginity. I’ve read all the letters of Clement, Ignatius, and Polycarp and the only thing that can be found is support for the virgin birth. Origen attested to perpetual virginity; but of course Origen was ruled a heretic by the church. It wasn’t until the fourth century that most church fathers (i.e. Ambrose, Jerome) came to agree on perpetual virginity.

Where do you come up with some of your misinformed logic?

 

[humble_in_doubt]

Where do you come up with some of your misinformed logic?

wow, now that’s an impressive and well formed argument … you must be a lawyer or logician? I feel enlightened now

 

[tobinatorstark]

you haven’t shown anything … except that you like to toss around the term “I’ve already showed” quite a bit

He has shown you more than enough. You sir can’t defend yourself on this issue. Yet you accuse others of not defending .

 

[tobinatorstark]

wow, now that’s an impressive and well formed argument … you must be a lawyer or logician? I feel enlightened now

coming someone who idolizes Darwin/

 

[humble_in_doubt]

He has shown you more than enough. You sir can’t defend yourself on this issue. Yet you accuse others of not defending .

It’s funny – I view Christianity as ancient mythology & entirely untrue (no more true than Zeus, Odin, or the spaghetti monster). However, Catholicism not only expects its adherents to believe in this untrue fable … but it can’t even remain consistent with the founding document of its own mythology. Wow

 

[humble_in_doubt]

coming someone who idolizes Darwin/

I don’t idolize anything or anyone … that’s what you guys do. I don’t need a master or idol

 

[tobinatorstark]

It’s funny – I view Christianity as ancient mythology & entirely untrue (no more true than Zeus, Odin, or the spaghetti monster). However, Catholicism not only expects its adherents to believe in this untrue fable … but it can’t even remain consistent with the founding document of its own mythology. Wow

Give proof. You can’t

I don’t idolize anything or anyone … that’s what you guys do. I don’t need a master or idol

Are you prepared to tell that to God when you get judged??

 

[humble_in_doubt]

Give proof. You can’t

I can … but I gotta go to the store. I’ll be back in an hour or two (and I’ll gladly give you my case if you really want to hear it).

Are you prepared to tell that to God when you get judged??

not the old be religious or burn in hell for eternity routine – nope I’m not scared in the least. I have little taste for psychological extortion used by so called men of virtue selling their mythological system.

 

[elvisman]

where did you get your degree in Hellenic Greek from? Moreover, it doesn’t matter because your logic is fallacious. In the Septuagint “brother” (ach) is almost always used to denote a brother in the familial sense. It’s used hundreds of times in that context and only a small handful of times in other contexts; and it’s not used to denote cousin.

WRONG.
Like I said - do your homework. Read the Story of Abraham and Lot. they wewre uncle and nephew, yet they are called ADELPHOI in the Septuagint.

the problem is not a single apostolic father averred perpetual virginity. I’ve read all the letters of Clement, Ignatius, and Polycarp and the only thing that can be found is support for the virgin birth. Origen attested to perpetual virginity; but of course Origen was ruled a heretic by the church. It wasn’t until the fourth century that most church fathers (i.e. Ambrose, Jerome) came to agree on perpetual virginity.

Oh, REALLY??

Athanasius
Let those, therefore, who deny that the Son is by nature from the Father and proper to his essence deny also that He took true human flesh from the ever-virgin Mary (Discourses against the Arians 2:70 [A.D. 360]).

Jerome
But as regards Victorinus, I assert what has already been proven from the gospel—that he [Victorinus] spoke of the brethren of the Lord not as being sons of Mary but brethren in the sense I have explained, that is to say, brethren in point of kinship, not by nature. (Against Helvidius: The Perpetual Virginity of Mary 19 [A.D. 383]).**

Epiphanius
**We believe in one God, the Father almighty, maker of all things, both visible and invisible; and in one Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God . . . who for us men and for our salvation came down and took flesh, that is, was born perfectly of the holy ever-virgin Mary by the Holy Spirit (The Man Well-Anchored 120 [A.D. 374]).

Augustine
In being born of a virgin who chose to remain a virgin even before she knew who was to be born other, Christ wanted to approve virginity rather than to impose it. And he wanted virginity to be of free choice even in that woman in whom he took upon himself the form of a slave (Holy Virginity 4:4 [A.D. 401]).

Shall I go on??

 

[elvisman]

you haven’t shown anything … except that you like to toss around the term “I’ve already showed” quite a bit

Then go back and read the proof in my posts.
You like to throw around a lot of lies and half-truths, but you’re not a very good reader, are you . . .

 

[tobinatorstark]

WRONG.
Like I said - do your homework. Read the Story of Abraham and Lot. they wewre uncle and nephew, yet they are called ADELPHOI in the Septuagint.
]

You are quite right. I pointed this out early in the thread as well and both humble_in_doubt and ppasa316 chose to ignore and it is highly doubtful they can every prove there case. They have what is known as selective hearing and selective seeing. They claim scholarly knowledge, but yet there facts have been refuted everytime

 

[elvisman]

You are quite right. I pointed this out early in the thread as well and both humble_in_doubt and ppasa316 chose to ignore and it is highly doubtful they can every prove there case. They have what is known as selective hearing and selective seeing. They claim scholarly knowledge, but yet there facts have been refuted everytime

You’e got that right, my friend!

 

[ppasa316]

How can the word of God contradict itself. Try reading the Douay-Rheims sometime

I use the John MacArthur bible. You ought to read it you might learn something. Like i said some Catholic scholars agree with the word of God. Now are you going to tell me they are wrong. Please explain the scriptures i gave you. Again i offer my services too you.

 

[ppasa316]

You’e got that right, my friend!

I gave you scriptures to back up my statements. If you don’t agree then explain the verses. I don’t want to hear what the church or council says but only the Word of God.

 

[tobinatorstark]

I use the John MacArthur bible. You ought to read it you might learn something. Like i said some Catholic scholars agree with the word of God. Now are you going to tell me they are wrong. Please explain the scriptures i gave you. Again i offer my services too you.

Never heard of that Bible. Nor have I heard of John MacArthur. I did respond to your Bible verses Why should I read anything other than a Catholic Bible?? I refuse your services because you don’t know how to defend your faith, whatever denomination of Protestantism you are. Nor have you given credible proof. Which you have been refuted by 3 people in this thread and have not come back to refute my response that I gave that included your Bible verses. If you don’t think you can go back a look at post and read it completely enough don’t respond. You have given no refutation whatsoever because you don’t know how

 

[tobinatorstark]

I gave you scriptures to back up my statements. If you don’t agree then explain the verses. I don’t want to hear what the church or council says but only the Word of God.

why worship the Bible?? The Church are the official teaching of Christ and the go according to the scriptures. The Catholic mass itself is 100% biblical. We responded to your scriptures yet you ignored our responses