James, Brother of Jesus?

[elvisman]

I know it can’t be answered. I am posing another Challenge for our Calvinist friend. It is amazing how much we can defend just using Scripture and other Church documents that back up scripture. Indeed talk about traditions of men. They have no foundations leading back to Christ as we have.

 

[ppasa316]

I understood quite clear. You were referring not me, but the Catholic Church as false prophets. That is quite wrong. You are the one trying to corrupt us and spread false teachings

Well i guess some of your catholic scholars are doing the same because they agree with verses and statements that i gave you.

 

[elvisman]

Well i guess some of your catholic scholars are doing the same because they agree with verses and statements that i gave you.

To which verses and scholars are you referring?**

 

[Dokimas]

WRONG**.**
Consider Acts 1:15 when they were going to choose the successor of Judas. The word “Adelphoi” is used here to describe the 120 believers who were there. Do you actually believe that they all had the same mother??
This is utter nonsense!
I believe the word you’re looking for is in verse 16 where Peter says, “Men and brothren, …” You are correct that it is silly to think that these are Peter’s brothers but it is also silly to think these are all Peter’s cousins. It fits that Peter was speaking of brothers in Christ, the family Blood here would be the Blood of the Savior.

 

[elvisman]

I believe the word you’re looking for is in verse 16 where Peter says, “Men and brothren, …” You are correct that it is silly to think that these are Peter’s brothers but it is also silly to think these are all Peter’s cousins. It fits that Peter was speaking of brothers in Christ, the family Blood here would be the Blood of the Savior.

You’re abosolutely right!
I couldn’t have said it better myself.

**The word used here is Adelphoi, which ppasa316 and humble_in_doubt have wrongly characterized as having to mean uterine siblings. **

The fact is that those who were schooled in the Septuagint (like Jesus and the Apostles) would have used the term more loosely than the holding to the rigorous uterine brother meaning.

 

[Dokimas]

**
Oh, REALLY?? **

Athanasius
Let those, therefore, who deny that the Son is by nature from the Father and proper to his essence deny also that He took true human flesh from the ever-virgin Mary (Discourses against the Arians 2:70 [A.D. 360]).

Jerome
But as regards Victorinus, I assert what has already been proven from the gospel—that he [Victorinus] spoke of the brethren of the Lord not as being sons of Mary but brethren in the sense I have explained, that is to say, brethren in point of kinship, not by nature.** (Against Helvidius: The Perpetual Virginity of Mary 19 [A.D. 383]).

Epiphanius
We believe in one God, the Father almighty, maker of all things, both visible and invisible; and in one Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God . . . who for us men and for our salvation came down and took flesh, that is, was born perfectly of the holy ever-virgin Mary by the Holy Spirit (*The Man Well-Anchored *120 [A.D. 374]).

Augustine
In being born of a virgin who chose to remain a virgin even before she knew who was to be born other, Christ wanted to approve virginity rather than to impose it. And he wanted virginity to be of free choice even in that woman in whom he took upon himself the form of a slave (Holy Virginity 4:4 [A.D. 401]).

Shall I go on??​

Don’t look now but those you quoted were in the 4th and 5th centuries just like Humble said.

 

[ppasa316]

WRONG

.
Consider Acts 1:15 when they were going to choose the successor of Judas. The word “Adelphoi” is used here to describe the 120 believers who were there. Do you actually believe that they all had the same mother??
This is utter nonsense!
I believe the word you’re looking for is in verse 16 where Peter says, “Men and brothren, …” You are correct that it is silly to think that these are Peter’s brothers but it is also silly to think these are all Peter’s cousins. It fits that Peter was speaking of brothers in Christ, the family Blood here would be the Blood of the Savior.

The word I used to describe literal brothers is found in v.14. His brothers (adelphos). My point is that Jesus had brothers and sisters just as the Word of God says. I agree that the word brethren found in v.16 means part of the 120 believers

 

[elvisman]

Dokimas;5319127:

The word I used to describe literal brothers is found in v.14. His brothers (adelphos). My point is that Jesus had brothers and sisters just as the Word of God says. I agree that the word brethren found in v.16 means part of the 120 believers

**It’s the same **Greek word used to describe the entire 120 people there, therefore, your position is moot:

Verses 14-16:
All these devoted themselves with one accord to prayer, together with some women, and Mary the mother of Jesus, and his brothers (Adelphoi). During those days Peter stood up in the midst of the brothers (Adelphoi) (there was a group of about one hundred and twenty persons in the one place). He said, "My brothers (Adelphoi), the scripture had to be fulfilled which the holy Spirit spoke beforehand through the mouth of David, concerning Judas, who was the guide for those who arrested Jesus.

 

[elvisman]

Don’t look now but those you quoted were in the 4th and 5th centuries just like Humble said.

I always find it hilarious how Protestants will put men like Athanasius and Augustine on a pedestal of truth - UNTIL there is something that they just can’t agree with, like Mary’s perpetual virginity and the Real Presence in the Eucharist. They find no problem with most of their other teachings, though - as long as they don’t sound “too Catholic”.
"Augustine and Athanasius were great heroes of the faith - EXCEPT for that junk about Mary and the Eucharist!"

I forgot to mention the Protoevangelium of James, written about A.D. 150.
It not only proclaims Mary’s perpetual virginity but also speaks of the "brothers of the Lord" as being Joseph’s children from another marriage. It says that Joseph was a widower.

**Mary’s perpetual virginity was also believed and taught by some of your greatest Protestant Reformation heroes like Calvin, Luther and Zwingli.

 

[ppasa316]

ppasa316;5319303:

**It’s the same **

Greek word used to describe the entire 120 people there, therefore, your position is moot:

Verses 14-16:
All these devoted themselves with one accord to prayer, together with some women, and Mary the mother of Jesus, and his brothers (Adelphoi). During those days Peter stood up in the midst of the brothers (Adelphoi) (there was a group of about one hundred and twenty persons in the one place). He said, "My brothers (Adelphoi), the scripture had to be fulfilled which the holy Spirit spoke beforehand through the mouth of David, concerning Judas, who was the guide for those who arrested Jesus.

Sorry your wrong concerning v14 They are his real brothers adelphos. I do agree with you on the rest.

 

[elvisman]

elvisman;5319405:

Sorry your wrong concerning v14 They are his real brothers adelphos. I do agree with you on the rest.

How am I wrong about verse 14 but not 15 and 16?
You have an EXTREMELY weak case.

Your problem is that it is very ambiguous and, therefore, must rely on sacred Tradition - which you reject (2 Thess. 2:15).

 

[Dokimas]

I always find it hilarious how Protestants will put men like Athanasius and Augustine on a pedestal of truth - UNTIL there is something that they just can’t agree with, like Mary’s perpetual virginity and the Real Presence in the Eucharist. They find no problem with most of their other teachings, though - as long as they don’t sound “too Catholic”.
"Augustine and Athanasius were great heroes of the faith - EXCEPT for that junk about Mary and the Eucharist!"

I forgot to mention the Protoevangelium of James, written about A.D. 150.
It not only proclaims Mary’s perpetual virginity but also speaks of the "brothers of the Lord" as being Joseph’s children from another marriage. It says that Joseph was a widower.

Mary’s perpetual virginity was also believed and taught by some of your *greatest *Protestant Reformation heroes like Calvin, Luther and Zwingli.

Are you speaking to me? If so, the joke is on you, I have no clue what Athanasius or Augustine believes on any issue. With all due respect to these men, I’m not interested.​

In Heaven, I’ll ‘bet’ God will have a thing or two to say against many protestants with respect to what they’ve said or not said about Mary. On the other hand I’ll bet Mary will have a thing or two to say in correction of catholics as to what they’ve believed about her.

 

[Dokimas]

Elv, your post #128 has my name on a quote not written by me. What’s that all about???

 

[ppasa316]

ppasa316;5319748:

How

am I wrong about verse 14 but not 15 and 16?
You have an EXTREMELY weak case.

Your problem is that it is very ambiguous and, therefore, must rely on sacred Tradition - which you reject (2 Thess. 2:15).

I told you the answer already. v14 is literal brothers whereas 15-16 is talking about the 120 believers. What’s so hard to understand about that or you just don’t want to ackowledge that fact that Mary had other kids. Ludwig Ott a famous Catholic scholar admits that there is no direct reference to Mary’s perpetual virginity in ANY text of scripture. roll your eyes to that one

 

[tobinatorstark]

elvisman;5320059:

I told you the answer already. v14 is literal brothers whereas 15-16 is talking about the 120 believers. What’s so hard to understand about that or you just don’t want to ackowledge that fact that Mary had other kids. Ludwig Ott a famous Catholic scholar admits that there is no direct reference to Mary’s perpetual virginity in ANY text of scripture. roll your eyes to that one

why do lie and tell half truths all the time???

 

[planten]

This might help: forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=343269

**As far as we know, james was the real brother of Jesus. Jesus had sisters too. It is all mentioned in the bible. It is no use taking the word “brother” in the wider sense. The word “son” is also being taken in a special sense. Why is that? Why the word “Son” is not being taken in the real sense? It appears there is no sense except the desire of the church.

The purpose is just to avoid few problems. The church wants the world to take special meanings of everything according to their wishes to their own advantage. While at the same time the Catholics try to take bad meanings of things in other’s faiths.

About Peter also, I am unhappy that person is not mentioned very well in bible. Is he not the same person in whose name the church was built and he was called the Rock. **

 

[ppasa316]

ppasa316;5320472:

why do lie and tell half truths all the time???

If i am lying which i am not, then the Word of God is lying. So many passages to support that Jesus had brothers and sisters. Matt 12:46, Mk 6:3, Lk 11:11:27-28, Jn 7:5, Acts 1:14 of course you still can’t accept this fact.

 

[ppasa316]

**As far as we know, james was the real brother of Jesus. Jesus had sisters too. It is all mentioned in the bible. It is no use taking the word “brother” in the wider sense. The word “son” is also being taken in a special sense. Why is that? Why the word “Son” is not being taken in the real sense? It appears there is no sense except the desire of the church.

The purpose is just to avoid few problems. The church wants the world to take special meanings of everything according to their wishes to their own advantage. While at the same time the Catholics try to take bad meanings of things in other’s faiths.

About Peter also, I am unhappy that person is not mentioned very well in bible. Is he not the same person in whose name the church was built and he was called the Rock. **

Thank You !!!

 

[tobinatorstark]

**As far as we know, james was the real brother of Jesus. Jesus had sisters too. It is all mentioned in the bible. It is no use taking the word “brother” in the wider sense. The word “son” is also being taken in a special sense. Why is that? Why the word “Son” is not being taken in the real sense? It appears there is no sense except the desire of the church.

The purpose is just to avoid few problems. The church wants the world to take special meanings of everything according to their wishes to their own advantage. While at the same time the Catholics try to take bad meanings of things in other’s faiths.

About Peter also, I am unhappy that person is not mentioned very well in bible. Is he not the same person in whose name the church was built and he was called the Rock. **

give examples

so far no one has given credible proof without getting debunked!!!

 

[tobinatorstark]

tobinatorstark;5320674:

If i am lying which i am not, then the Word of God is lying. So many passages to support that Jesus had brothers and sisters. Matt 12:46, Mk 6:3, Lk 11:11:27-28, Jn 7:5, Acts 1:14 of course you still can’t accept this fact.

I have already debunked you and so did elvisman. We credible proof against your allegations and yet YOU ignored. The Word of God never lies only man. But yes you do lie.