James, Brother of Jesus?

[tobinatorstark]

And neither you nor humble_in_doubt have been able to answer my question, my brotha.

The Septuagint use of the words Adelphos and Adelphoi are really the crux of this argument.

You see - it’s really just a matter of understanding where the NT writers came from. The Early Fathers and the Church understand - but neither of you do . . .

I don’t know how much more clear we can be. Maybe we need to post a snippet from the Septuagint and Greek manuscripts to get our point accrossed. I am out for the evening.

 

[humble_in_doubt]

Christianity belongs everywhere. Evolution and other false garbage don’t belong in society. Oh how I wish groups like the ACLU and ACORN would be dissolved with all members being burned at the stake or beheaded.

frankly I can’t stand the ACLU or ACORN either … I’m a libertarian. As far as the other bigoted junk you’ve spewed … I expect nothing less. Evolution is real science, the bible is a fairy tale. You defend mythology, I promote reality. Those are the facts

 

[ppasa316]

I don’t know how much more clear we can be. Maybe we need to post a snippet from the Septuagint and Greek manuscripts to get our point accrossed. I am out for the evening.

Bring it on brotha

 

[ppasa316]

And neither you nor humble_in_doubt have been able to answer my question, my brotha.

The Septuagint use of the words Adelphos and Adelphoi are really the crux of this argument.

You see - it’s really just a matter of understanding where the NT writers came from. The Early Fathers and the Church understand - but neither of you do . . .

I just gave an answer to that question. Cant you read. Lets try this one more time Adelphos is used in the NT as a literal brother. Can you understand that. Same way in Acts 1. Lol i have answered you questions on sola scriptura and I stand by them. Lets try this one once more 2 Tim 3:16, 2 Peter 3:16 read it slowly and ask yourself what does this scripture mean to me.

 

[ppasa316]

Where exactly in scripture does it say that scripture is only word of God. That contradicts 2 Thessalonians 2:14 as I mentioned earlier. Sola Scriptura is false. You have not presented any fact that James was the brother of Jesus. You aren’t a Greek scholar. We have someone who knows enough Greek to get bye it isn’t you

I have provided scripture to the fact that not only was mary not a perpetual virgin but she had sons and daughters other than Jesus. If you know someone that know Greek then ask them what does Adelphos mean. Some early fathers opposed the concept of the perpetual virginity of mary, including Tertullian. The first century Jewish historian Josephus even referred to James as the brother of Jesus. Now who would I listen to you or them. lol

 

[ppasa316]

You are a liar. I gave tons of answers to all you questions. Quit twisting everything that we say or just leave this thread. I will answer to your scriptures

But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach a gospel to you besides that which we have preached to you, let him be anathema.

False prophecy is what this is about. This includes everything outside the Catholic Church

Col. 2:8

Beware lest any man cheat you by philosophy, and vain deceit; according to the tradition of men, according to the elements of the world, and not according to Christ:

Col. 2:18

Let no man seduce you, willing in humility, and religion of angels, walking in the things which he hath not seen, in vain puffed up by the sense of his flesh,

This is what you are trying to do me and Elvisman

From the Haydock Bible Commentary

Ver. 8. Lest any man impose upon you.[2] In the Greek, make a prey of you, as thieves that steal things. — There were two sorts of false teachers among them; they who mixed vain errors from heathen philosophy with the principles of the Christian religion, and they who had been Jews, and were for making them retain those rites and customs which the Jews had among them, and were only from their private human traditions. (Witham) This alludes to the traditions and observances which the Pharisees had added to the law of Moses, and which Christ had blamed; but which these false apostles wished to introduce amongst the Colossians. The ceremonial laws were the elementary instructions given by God to the world, but we are to attach ourselves to the doctrines of Jesus Christ, from whom alone we expect light and justice, and sanctity. (Bible de Vence) — According to the rudiments of the world: by which some expound vain fallacies and false maxims of the first kind of teachers; others the Jewish ceremonies, which are called weak and poor elements, or rudiments. (Galatians iv. 9.) This is neither to condemn in general the use of philosophy, which St. Augustine commends, and made use of, nor all traditions delivered by the apostles. See 1 Corinthians xi. and 2. Thessalonians ii. 14. (Witham)

something I exposed to you earlier in the thread clarifying the need for written word and sacred traditon

part 1

These scriptures were for you. you see you didn’t understand enough to answer the other scriptures i have given. Not these lol.

 

[ppasa316]

Christianity belongs everywhere. Evolution and other false garbage don’t belong in society. Oh how I wish groups like the ACLU and ACORN would be dissolved with all members being burned at the stake or beheaded.

Real nice tobinatorstark. I am sure God is really enjoying your response to the aclu and acorn. Is this a Catholic thing or is it yours. Shame on you!!! As a former catholic I would be embarassed to have you defend the Catholic faith like this. Instead of praying for them and salvation you show your true colors by saying they should be burned at the stake or beheaded. Where is the moderator when you need them. You should really take a break from posting anymore remarks.

 

[tobinatorstark]

These scriptures were for you. you see you didn’t understand enough to answer the other scriptures i have given. Not these lol.

I understood quite clear. You were referring not me, but the Catholic Church as false prophets. That is quite wrong. You are the one trying to corrupt us and spread false teachings

 

[tobinatorstark]

Real nice tobinatorstark. I am sure God is really enjoying your response to the aclu and acorn. Is this a Catholic thing or is it yours. Shame on you!!! As a former catholic I would be embarassed to have you defend the Catholic faith like this. Instead of praying for them and salvation you show your true colors by saying they should be burned at the stake or beheaded. Where is the moderator when you need them. You should really take a break from posting anymore remarks.

The ACLU and ACORN have no problem with letting innocent people die and taking God out of the society. There is no reason that they can’t be tried for hideous crimes. They are just as bad as Hitler and Obama. They have both gotten away with such hideous crimes.

 

[tobinatorstark]

frankly I can’t stand the ACLU or ACORN either … I’m a libertarian. As far as the other bigoted junk you’ve spewed … I expect nothing less. Evolution is real science, the bible is a fairy tale. You defend mythology, I promote reality. Those are the facts

you have no proof that Christianity is mythology. Prove it. You can’t I dare you. I double dare you

 

[tobinatorstark]

I just gave an answer to that question. Cant you read. Lets try this one more time Adelphos is used in the NT as a literal brother. Can you understand that. Same way in Acts 1. Lol i have answered you questions on sola scriptura and I stand by them. Lets try this one once more 2 Tim 3:16, 2 Peter 3:16 read it slowly and ask yourself what does this scripture mean to me.

You have done no such thing. I refuted you with 2 Thessalonians 2:14. Here it is for the 4th time

2 Thessalonians 2:14 Douay-Rheims

14 Therefore, brethren, stand fast; and hold the traditions which you have learned, whether by word, or by our epistle

Haydock Bible Commentary (Douay-Rheims)

Ver. 14. Traditions,…whether by word,[10] or by our epistle. Therefore, says St. Chrysostom, the apostle did not deliver all things that were to be believed, by writing; (Witham) but many things by word of mouth only, which have been perpetuated by tradition, and these traditions, no less than the writings of the apostles, are deserving of faith. Omoios de kakeina, kai tauta estin axiopista. (St. Chrysostom, on this place)
[10] Ver. 14. St. Chrysostom, 237. enteuthen deilon, &c.

2 Timothy 3:16 (Douay-Rheims)

16 All scripture, inspired of God, is profitable to teach, to reprove, to correct, to instruct in justice,

Haydock Bible Commentary

Ver. 16. All scripture divinely inspired is profitable to teach, to reprove, to correct, or admonish, to instruct others in justice, and in the ways of virtue, that thus he who is a man of God, a minister of the gospel, may be perfect and instructed unto every good work. But when our adversaries of the pretended reformation, undertake from these four verses to shew, first, that every ignorant man or woman is hereby warranted to read and put what construction his or her private spirit, or private judgment, suggests upon all places of the holy Scriptures; and secondly, that the Scriptures alone contain all truths which a Christian is bound to believe; or at least, that the Scriptures teach him all things necessary to salvation, without regard to the interpretation and authority of the Catholic Church: I may at least say (without examining at present any other pretended grounds of these assertions) that these consequences are very remote from the text and sense of St. Paul in this place. As to the first, does this follow; the Scriptures must be read by Timothy, a priest, a bishop, a man of God, a minister of the gospel, whose office it is to instruct and convert others, therefore they are proper to be read and expounded by every ignorant man or woman? Does not St. Paul say elsewhere, (2 Corinthians ii. 17.) that many adulterate and corrupt the word of God? does not St. Peter tell us also, (2 Peter iii. 16.) that in St. Paul’s epistles are some things…which the unlearned and unstable wrest, as also the other scriptures, to their own perdition? See the preface to the Gospel of St. John, where reasons are brought for which it was requisite that the Church should put some restraint to the abuse which the ignorant made of reading the Scriptures in vulgar tongues. As to the second consequence, does it follow: every Scripture divinely inspired is profitable for St. Timothy, for a priest, a bishop, a man of God, a minister and preacher of the gospel, to teach and instruct, and conduce to bring both him and others to salvation; therefore they contain all things that a Christian need to believe? &c. Is not every Christian bound to believe that the books in the canon of the New and Old Testament are of divine authority, as in particular these two epistles of St. Paul to Timothy? Where does the Scripture assure us of this? But of this elsewhere. (Witham) — Every part of divine Scripture is certainly profitable for all these ends. But if we would have the whole rule of Christian faith and practice, we must not be content with those Scriptures which Timothy knew from his infancy, (that is, with the Old Testament alone) nor yet with the New Testament, without taking along with it the traditions of the apostles and the interpretation of the Church, to which the apostles delivered both the book and the true meaning of it. (Challoner

this includes the 7 books you Protestants call Apocrypha. I highly doubt they are included in your faulty Bible

part 1

 

[tobinatorstark]

I just gave an answer to that question. Cant you read. Lets try this one more time Adelphos is used in the NT as a literal brother. Can you understand that. Same way in Acts 1. Lol i have answered you questions on sola scriptura and I stand by them. Lets try this one once more 2 Tim 3:16, 2 Peter 3:16 read it slowly and ask yourself what does this scripture mean to me.

part 2

2 Peter 3:16 (Douay-Rheims)

As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are certain things hard to be understood, which the unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, to their own destruction.

Haydock Bible Commentary

Ver. 15-16. As also our most dear brother, Paul,…hath written to you. He seems to mean in his epistle to the Hebrews or converted Jews, (Chap. x. 37.) where he says: yet a little while,…and he that is to come, will come, and will not delay. — In which are some things hard to understand, especially by unlearned, ignorant people, unstable, inconstant, not well grounded in faith, and which they wrest,[2] as they do also the other scriptures, by their private interpretations, to their own perdition. (Witham)

this sounds like you

I gave you verses that told the prepetual virginity of the blessed virgin Mary. Here is one for the 2nd time

Luke 1:28 (Douay-Rheims)

And the angel being come in, said unto her: Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.

more than likely that you faulty Bible doesn’t contain full of grace.

Haydock Bible Commentary

Ver. 28. Hail, full of grace:[5] by the greatest share of divine graces granted to any creature. This translation, approved by the ancient Fathers, agrees with the ancient Syriac and Arabic versions. There was no need therefore to change it into gracious, with Erasmus; into freely beloved, with Beza; into highly favoured, with the Protestant translators. For if seven deacons (Acts vi. 3.) are said to be full of the Holy Ghost, as it is again said of St. Stephen, (Acts vii. 55.) and also of the same St. Stephen, (Acts vi. ver. 8.) that he was full of grace, (as the learned Dr. Wells translates it in his amendments made to the Protestant translation) why should any one be offended at this salutation given to the blessed mother of God; who would not have been raised to this highest dignity, had not her soul been first prepared for it by the greatest share of divine graces? — The Lord is with thee, by his interior graces; and now, at this moment, is about to confer upon thee the highest of all dignities, by making thee truly the mother of God. (Witham) — The Catholic Church makes frequent use of these words which were brought by the archangel from heaven, as well to honour Jesus Christ and his virgin Mother, as because they were the first glad tidings of Christ’s incarnation, and man’s salvation; and are the very abridgment and sum of the whole gospel. In the Greek Church, they are used daily in the Mass [the Divine Liturgy]. See the Liturgy of St. James, and that of St. Chrysostom.

I quadruple dare you to refute these scripture passages

Luke 2:22-24 (Douay-Rheims)

And after the days of her purification, according to the law of Moses, were accomplished, they carried him to Jerusalem, to present him to the Lord: 23 As it is written in the law of the Lord: Every male opening the womb shall be called holy to the Lord: 24 And to offer a sacrifice, according as it is written in the law of the Lord, a pair of turtledoves, or two young pigeons

Haydock Bible Commentary

Ver. 22. Of her purification. The blessed Virgin mother stood not in need of this ceremony, to which she submitted herself, as her Son did to that of circumcision. (Witham) — Whence St. Lawrence Justinian in his sermon on the purification, very well observes: grace raised the Virgin above the law; humility subjected her to it. Jesus Christ, in subjecting himself to the law of Moses, has left an example to princes and magistrates, to obey their own laws; for then they may expect them to be observed by others, when themselves shew respect to them. (Barradius.)

Ver. 23. Every male opening the womb.[2] This translation is more conformable to the doctrine of the Fathers, that Christ was born without opening the womb; which Ven. Bede calls the doctrine of the Catholic Church. (Witham) — See Exodus xiii. 2. and Numbers viii. 16.

Ver. 24. This was the offering of the poorer classes.

I really would like to know what the faulty MacArthur Bible reads for each of these passage. I guarantee that I spot all the errors in that Bible just as I can with the faulty King James

 

[tobinatorstark]

Acts 1:14 (Douay-Rheims)

All these were persevering with one mind in prayer with the women, and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with his brethren. 15 In those days Peter rising up in the midst of the brethren, said: (now the number of persons together was about an hundred and twenty

Haydock Bible Commentary

Ver. 13-14. Into an upper room, to be more retired in prayer. There they were persevering with one mind in prayer. These few words denote to us three dispositions to receive the Holy Ghost. 1. Prayer. 2. Perseverance in it. 3. To be of one mind, perfectly united in charity, and the love of one another. (Witham) — This is the last mention that is made in Scripture of the blessed Virgin Mary. She lived the rest of her time with the Christians (as here she is particularly named and noted amongst them) and especially with St. John, the apostle, to whom our Lord recommended her. (St. John xix 26. 27.) She undoubtedly communicated to the evangelists many circumstances relative to the actions, words, and mysteries of her divine Son.

 

[tobinatorstark]

I just gave an answer to that question. Cant you read. Lets try this one more time Adelphos is used in the NT as a literal brother. Can you understand that. Same way in Acts 1. Lol i have answered you questions on sola scriptura and I stand by them. Lets try this one once more 2 Tim 3:16, 2 Peter 3:16 read it slowly and ask yourself what does this scripture mean to me.

You want more refutation see post 74

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=346019&page=5

Face it. You don’t know anything

 

[elvisman]

I just gave an answer to that question. Cant you read. Lets try this one more time Adelphos is used in the NT as a literal brother. Can you understand that. Same way in Acts 1. Lol i have answered you questions on sola scriptura and I stand by them. Lets try this one once more 2 Tim 3:16, 2 Peter 3:16 read it slowly and ask yourself what does this scripture mean to me.

All you did was make a weak defense of your understanding of the words Adelphos/Adelphoi. You don’t seem to have a grasp on the various meanings and uses of those words.

I asked you to do your homework - then come back with a credible argument.
Until you can do that, your position is completely impotent.

Your 2 Tim. 3:16 reference is an extremely weak argument for Sola Scriptura. It says that the Scriptures are **"useful (profitable) for teaching, for refutation, for correction, and for training in righteousness".

Nowhere does it indicate that they are sufficient - NOWHERE - only*** useful or “profitable*”. Gee, ppasa316 - you’re really batting a thousand here . . .**

As for 2 Peter 3:16, you certainly have twisted the scriptures to your own destruction.**

**PS - Ummm . . . maybe you should LOL a little less and study the Scriptures a little more.

 

[tobinatorstark]

I want to know where in the Bible that the Bible is the only word of God??? That hasn’t been answered yet

 

[Bill_Pick]

This is part of my answer to another thread but i thought this might help.

First Mary did have sin. Thats why she said in Luke 1:47 God, My Savior. Mary also presented an offering to the priest because of her sinful condition Lk 2:22-24 which was requird by law. Lev 12 Secondly Jesus did have brothers and sisters. Their names are listed in Matt 13:55-56. The reason Jesus handed over Mary to John is because his real brothers didn’t believe in Him (Jn 7:5) until the very end. They are not cousins as the Catholic leads you to believe. The Greek term for brother (adelphos) here is the normal word for “blood brother.” The same Greek word is never used for cousin in the NT.

Do non-cathloic know any think about being a Christian B4 1500,any thing about Jewish custom .Do they have any tradition

 

[tobinatorstark]

Do non-cathloic know any think about being a Christian B4 1500,any thing about Jewish custom .Do they have any tradition

You raise a good question Bill. I think there are non Catholic Christians that do know about being a Christian before 1500 and know about Jewish custom. Well in fact I can name 1 that I know, he is a Lutheran minister. The rest are most likely deep scholars. The average laity for non Catholic Christians probably do not know, they haven’t been taught

 

[elvisman]

I want to know where in the Bible that the Bible is the only word of God??? That hasn’t been answered yet

**That’s because it CAN’T be answered. They believe in something that just isn’t there. Boy - talk about traditions of men!

NOWHERE in the bible does it say that ALL of the word of God is IN the Bible.
In fact - it says just the opposite:

John 16:12-16
**"I have much more to tell you, but you cannot bear it now. **
**But when he comes, the Spirit of truth, he will guide you to all truth. He will not speak on his own, but he will speak what he hears, and will declare to you the things that are coming. ****He will glorify me, because he will take from what is mine and declare it to you. **
Everything that the Father has is mine; for this reason I told you that he will take from what is mine and declare it to you.

 

[tobinatorstark]

That’s because it CAN’T be answered. They believe in something that just isn’t there. Boy - talk about traditions of *men! *

NOWHERE in the bible does it say that ALL of the word of God is IN the Bible.
In fact - it says just the opposite:

John 16:12-16
"I have much more to tell you, but you cannot bear it now.
But when he comes, the Spirit of truth, he will guide you to all truth. He will not speak on his own, but he will speak what he hears, and will declare to you the things that are coming. He will glorify me, because he will take from what is mine and declare it to you.
Everything that the Father has is mine; for this reason I told you that he will take from what is mine and declare it to you.

I know it can’t be answered. I am posing another Challenge for our Calvinist friend. It is amazing how much we can defend just using Scripture and other Church documents that back up scripture. Indeed talk about traditions of men. They have no foundations leading back to Christ as we have.