Jehova Witness/the Kingdom of God

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King Solomon believed in the life after death, and that is why he said, “Find me a woman who consults the spirits of the dead,” therefore he shows the possibility of the dead being alive in the spirit too, and even Samuel’s spirit had said in front of King Saul, “Why did you disturb me by summoning me up?” So you see that it was Samuel’s spirit that spoke with King Saul and not the devil…
Fine question. And well put. 👍 (Though I am sure you mean King Saul)

It is Sat morning here and I am out in our Bible work most of the day - but would be happy to try and address the contradiction later. 😉

But one question for you Coredeemer. (if you come online before:) : "When a spirit medium (or a bunch of kids with a ouiji board) contact a spirit todaywhich says it is a particular dead person - Do you believe it is actually that person that they have contacted?
 
When a spirit medium (or a bunch of kids with a ouiji board) contact a spirit todaywhich says it is a particular dead person - Do you believe it is actually that person that they have contacted?
It very well could be a demon the medium/kids have contacted, but that is a different issue of whether it is possible that a particular dead person can be contacted.1 Samuel 28: 8 So Saul disguised himself and clothed himself with other garments and went, he and two men with him; and they came to the woman by night. He now said: “Employ divination, please, for me by spirit mediumship and bring up for me the one whom I shall designate to you.” … 11 At this the woman said: “Whom shall I bring up for you?” To this he said: “Bring up Samuel for me.”

12 When the woman saw Samuel she began crying out at the top of her voice; and the woman went on to say to Saul: “Why did you trick me, when you yourself are Saul?” 13 But the king said to her: “Do not be afraid, but what did you see?” And the woman went on to say to Saul: “A god I saw coming up out of the earth.” 14 At once he said to her: “What is his form?” to which she said: “It is an old man coming up, and he has himself covered with a sleeveless coat.” At that Saul recognized that it was Samuel, and he proceeded to bow low with his face to the earth and to prostrate himself.

15 And Samuel began to say to Saul: “Why have you disturbed me by having me brought up?” To this Saul said: “I am in very sore straits, as the Phi·lis´tines are fighting against me, and God himself has departed from me and has answered me no more, either by means of the prophets or by dreams; so that I am calling you to let me know what I shall do.” 16 And Samuel went on to say: “Why, then, do you inquire of me, when Jehovah himself has departed from you and proves to be your adversary? 17 And Jehovah will do for himself just as he spoke by means of me, and Jehovah will rip the kingdom away from your hand and give it to your fellowman David. … 20 At that Saul quickly fell down his full length to the earth and became very much afraid because of Samuel’s words.
There is NOTHING in this whole chapter that suggest this was a demon, that’s pure eisegesis. The plain-straightforward reading says Samuel all the way through. Further, the text doesn’t show Samuel saying anything a Demon would say. Why would a Demon respond by saying ‘Jehovah is punishing you for disobeying him’? The responses is identical to what Samuel would say while Samuel was alive.

There is a huge distinction between God saying contacting the dead is forbidden versus contacting the dead is impossible. Saul clearly believed it was possible, and the text indicates it happened.
 
And here is where the NWT slants the reading again by putting Samuel in quotation marks (“Samuel”) throughout the passage.
 
But one question for you Coredeemer. (if you come online before:) : "When a spirit medium (or a bunch of kids with a ouiji board) contact a spirit todaywhich says it is a particular dead person - Do you believe it is actually that person that they have contacted?
All I know is that scripture never lies. When it comes to the question: Who was King Saul talking with? We have to agree on what scripture has said and whose name it has used to explain King Saul’s conversation. Scripture cannot lie and has written its opinion and judged the case concerning: Who was King Saul conversing with? And that is why the author has decided and judged appropriately and fittingly to use Samuel’s name instead of the devil’s name. When Samuel said, “Why did you disturb me by summoning me up?” It is obvious that scripture wishes to show us that the dead wish not to be disturbed nor brought back into the affairs of this world. But, nevertheless, King Saul had disturbed Samuel’s spirit and brought him back into the affairs of this world. We know that Samuel did not know why King Saul had disturbed him from his rest, and that is why Samuel said to King Saul, “Why did you disturb me by summoning me up?” And that is why Saul responds to Samuel, “I am in great distress, for the Philistines are waging war against me and God has abonded me.”

Also Samuel predicts and even tells King Saul that He and His sons will be with him in the next day after he is killed. Here scripture wishes to point out to us that it was indeed Samuel whom king Saul had conversed with, so that you may believe the words of the author and Samuel’s words, so that you may believe that King Saul and his sons are with Samuel. For, if the author did not believe in this, then, wouldn’t he inform us by saying, “The devil tried to deceive King Saul with false hope with the life after death, so as to appease and calm down the king with deceptions.” But it doesn’t say this, instead, scripture narrates and puts forth a self explanation, so that we can trust and rely with the opinion of the author who said, “Samuel said,” not, “The devil said.” We have to believe what the author has said and has written as it is. If the author hasn’t made any mention or reference about the devil or his name, then, most likely the author himself believes that King Saul had spoken with the prophet Samuel. Therefore we shouldn’t go beyond the author, challenging him because he has used and written Samuel’s name appropriately and fittingly, rather than the devil’s name.

Also God says in scripture, “I am the living God of Abraham, the Living God of Isaac, the Living God of Jacob,” He is God of the living and not of the dead. To Him all are living and not dead. There is no such thing as death. Death was destroyed on the cross. Everything is only a transition. We are only transiting from one place to another.

There is a book called, “The Exorcist Tells More Stories.” The author himself is a Catholic priest who has written stories about his encountering with the devil in the possessed, driving out evil spirits from people. It’ a must read! ignatius.com/Products/EMS-P/an-exorcist.aspx
 
There is a place where evil spirits and evil men are reserved for the day of punishment. But on the day of judgement or on the day of the resurrection they will rise to the eternal punishment. Likewise there is a place where holy men and women are reserved for the day of the resurrection, and they will rise to eternal life.

Because Matthew 25:46 says it like this, “And these will go into eternal punishment, but the just to eternal life.” Do you notice the word, “Eternal,” and he doesn’t say eternal death, for there is no such thing as death. Everything is alive and cannot die.

Revelation 14:11 says this: “The smoke of their torment goes up for ever and ever; for there is no rest, day or night, for those who worshiped the beast and its image, and for those who were branded with the mark of its name.” What could this be, but the reserved place for evil men and devils who are reserved or waiting for the day of the resurrection or the day of eternal punishment. They are not alive in the flesh, but in the spirit they are being tormented. But the spirit does not die.
 
click

John 3:19-21 (NWT):

“In answer Jesus said to them: ‘Break down this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.’ Therefore the Jews said: ‘This temple was built in forty-six years, and will you raise it up in three days?’ But he was talking about the temple of his body.”

So… If God raised Jesus, and Jesus said he would raise Jesus…

Jesus = God
I have had this discussion with a JW and the only answer they can give …God gave Jesus the power… not that Jesus has the power on his own “but God gives it to him” That seems to be their pat answer for any miracle that Jesus does . he has no power except what God gives him, therefore he is not God but godlike. Simply amazing to me how they don’t see what is in black and white. And if they do it is badly misinterpreted with their own special little spin on it. I find that so sad that they are being misled.
 
The thing what I find very interesting with King Saul’s conversation with Samuel’s spirit is this: Well, it says in scripture, “Saul knew that it was Samuel. He knelt and bowed face to the ground in homage.” 1 Samuel 28:14

King Saul bowed his face down to the ground which means: He didn’t commit idolatry for bowing his face to the ground out of homage. I hear a lot of Protestants accusing us Catholic committing idolatry when we are only showing homage as scripture uses it here.

For instance, in a time when there was no Kodak films, printers, photocopiers, and in a time when people were so illiterate and so uneducated, likewise they did not know how to either read or write because they didn’t have schools like today, so people had to use artificial pictures, images, statues, in order to convey the messages of God. Such so that King Solomon had built God’s temple with images of pomagranates, oxens, bulls, palm trees, and images of angels, and had had the Ark of the Covenant placed in the centre of the temple so that all may see it visibly. They knelt down before it out of homage and worshiped God through their homages. This wasn’t idolatry, this was homage which leads to praise and better worship of God.

So, we bow down before statues of Jesus, crucifixes, bowing down before the statues of Saints, to Saint Joseph the foster father of Jesus, to the Blessed Virgin Mary out of homage and not out of idolatry. Because through our homages we give praise and worship to God alone.

Even Moses built the Ark of the Covenant with an engraven heavenly images of Cherub Angels. Thus not long after will God command Moses to make an engraven earthly image of a bronze serpent, so that anybody who looks at the bronze serpent would be cured from the snake bite which God had sent. They bowed down to all these things and gave homage to it. Did they commit idolatry? No. Through their homages they gave praise and worship to God alone.
 
I still haven’t sat down and answered the earlier questions about Christians believing they are going to heaven!
The 144,000 in Watchtower theology go to heaven, as spirit creatures. Christendom believes that the number 144,000 is symbolic of all Christians, and that Christians go to heaven as spirits. So, here there is a similarity between Watchtower beliefs and Christian beliefs! It’s just that Christendom believes all Christians are of the annointed, and are children of God and that Jesus is the mediator for all men, not just for a limited number.

The above is just an observation.

Now, I have a question:

Catholics and orthodox Protestants believe that after the resurrection all people will have bodies, and that Christians will indeed be resurrected to an earthly existence. But, they also believe that heaven will come down to earth, so that earth and heaven become the same. This belief is supported by Revelation 21:1-3: that the tabernacle of God is among men, and God will dwell among them.

However, Watchtower theology does not have this happening. Earth remains separate from heaven. The Watchtower is aware of Revelation 21:1-3, but interprets in such a way as to nullify the teaching that God and heaven come to earth and that God will dwell among men on the new earth.

Can you explain the way the Watchtower interprets this verse?
 
This thread has had some very good examples of catholic theology through the use of scripture. Thank you all for that.

My question is; can one have a legitimate theological discussion of “what scripture really says” if one does not recognize the authority from which scripture was canonized and then takes scripture and edits it then uses that book, really no longer scripture since its been changed, to debate/argue/discuss et al?
Thanks.
 
^^ Yes.

MOST of the verses in the New World Translation are fine. There are a few that have been edited, but those haven’t come up yet. I’ve been trying to quote as much as possible from that bible as well, just to make my arguments maybe seem a bit more legitimate from a JW standpoint.

As for the debate of who determined the canon of the bible, maybe later on that can be debated, but I think it is sufficient for now that everyone accepts (most of the same books of) the Bible as coming from God.
 
Thanks for your reply djd.

I am trying to be as charitable as possible when I say that if you change the meaning of the passage, as in JN 1:1 “In the beggining was the Word, and the Word was with God and the Word was God.” to “… And the word was a god.” (emphasis mine) then we are not talking Christianity. That one sentence, in my unlearned, non-scholarly, opinion, makes discussion about Christianity futile. Apples to oranges. There is such a stark difference in interpretation of passages and individual words and disagreements to the translations from Greek. I believe that an individual JW that did independent study of history of early Christianity and an honest look at church authority would either lead to full conversion to the universal faith or at the very least question their faith in watchtower theology. Such as I believe you went through.

It sounds like I am arguing against a discussion with the JW entirely. I am not, this thread has been helpful to me and I’m sure other people.

I hope i am expressing myself correctly in all this rambling. Need to catch a flight home. God bless and thanks again.
Andy
 
Dear Yolene, beloved child of God,

May your day be blessed!:angel1:

I agree with posters here who advise to cut off communication with them, and that there are so many other ways to dedicate your time to Christ and His Holy Church.

Ecumenism is one thing, when we are under the direction of our parish or Diocese to work with those interested in our Catholic Faith, but this is a cult group which has beliefs in obvious :tsktsk::tsktsk:contradiction to all that we are taught through the Magisterium, CCC and tradition.

I hope you will draw closer to The Church and all her wondrous Sacraments. :highprayer:

“God is not the author of confusion.” is something good to remember here. Sometimes when we think we are simply being kind and lending a listening ear, we are actually taking precious time away from what we need to grow in our Catholic Faith.

I hope this answer is somewhat helpful, and trust that you will return to the forums and feel most welcome.:gopray::signofcross::gopray2:

Love and prayers,
Kathryn Ann:heaven:
 
Hello there!

I have been doing some research on Matthew 25:46 where Jesus says, “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life,” and I’ve compared this verse using NWT Bible, the Bible which most Jehovah’s witnesses use and read. Thus it is written in their bible, "And these will depart into everlasting cutting-off, but the righteous ones into everlasting life.”

The Greek word “kolasin = κόλασιν” which means “punishment or torment,” does not mean cutting-off. If you know a little Greek, then, you will recognise that the original Greek scripture writes this, " καὶ ἀπελεύσονται οὗτοι εἰς κόλασιν αἰώνιον, οἱ δὲ δίκαιοι εἰς ζωὴν αἰώνιον. " Literally if we translate this into English we get this, “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.” Matt 25:46

Why is this important?

Because the Greek text backs-up or proves that “eternal punishment” or “eternal torment” awaits the wicked, and not a cutting-off. Well, what do they mean by “a cutting-off”? I suspect that the people who had translated NWT bible for the Jehovah’s Witnesses had deliberately and purposely inserted the incorrect word, “cutting-off,” to promote their theory and their doctrine that there is no eternal punishment or torment for evil people on the day of the resurrection. Nevertheless the Greek text and word says that there is.

Well, Jesus said that there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth for the wicked?
 
Hello there!

I have been doing some research on Matthew 25:46 where Jesus says, “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life,” and I’ve compared this verse using NWT Bible, the Bible which most Jehovah’s witnesses use and read. Thus it is written in their bible, "And these will depart into everlasting cutting-off, but the righteous ones into everlasting life.”

The Greek word “kolasin = κόλασιν” which means “punishment or torment,” does not mean cutting-off. If you know a little Greek, then, you will recognise that the original Greek scripture writes this, " καὶ ἀπελεύσονται οὗτοι εἰς κόλασιν αἰώνιον, οἱ δὲ δίκαιοι εἰς ζωὴν αἰώνιον. " Literally if we translate this into English we get this, “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.” Matt 25:46

Why is this important?

Because the Greek text backs-up or proves that “eternal punishment” or “eternal torment” awaits the wicked, and not a cutting-off. Well, what do they mean by “a cutting-off”? I suspect that the people who had translated NWT bible for the Jehovah’s Witnesses had deliberately and purposely inserted the incorrect word, “cutting-off,” to promote their theory and their doctrine that there is no eternal punishment or torment for evil people on the day of the resurrection. Nevertheless the Greek text and word says that there is.

Well, Jesus said that there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth for the wicked?
This is why the JWs quietly stopped publishing the Kingdom Interlinear Bible, since the Greek-English format was exposing translation bias.
 
It very well could be a demon the medium/kids have contacted, but that is a different issue of whether it is possible that a particular dead person can be contacted.
1 Samuel 28: …

…But the king said to her: “Do not be afraid, but what did you see?” And the woman went on to say to Saul: “A god I saw coming up out of the earth.” 14 … “It is an old man coming up, and he has himself covered with a sleeveless coat.” At that Saul recognized that it was Samuel, and he proceeded to bow low with his face to the earth and to prostrate himself.

15 And Samuel began to say to Saul: “Why have you disturbed me by having me brought up?” To this Saul said: “I am in very sore straits, as the Phi·lis´tines are fighting against me, and God himself has departed from me and has answered me no more, …
Saul clearly believed it was possible, and the text indicates it happened.

Sorry I haven’t logged on for a few days. But I have been thinking about your question. :o

The Bible gave clear direction to the Israelites on talking to the dead. As we have seen the Hebrew scriptures teach they are not conscious in many places. Pointing to a future resurrection as their hope. (Dan 12:13, Job 14:13-15, Eccl 9:5.)

So if the dead aren’t conscious, it seems strange we have these strong warnings:
At Leviticus 19:31 Jehovah said: “Do not turn yourself to the spirit mediums, and do not consult professional foretellers of event, so you do not become unclean by them.”
And Deuteronomy 18:10-12 lists: ”spirit mediums” and “anyone who inquires of the dead” is “something detestable to Jehovah.” – Pretty strong words. But:

If the dead aren’t conscious, trying to talk to them is a waste of time! So why forbid talking to the dead if you cant? Well, even today people dabbling in that stuff contact spirits, ones who aften claim to be the dead (or those playing just assume that is who they are). Revelation 12:9 calls Satan the one “misleading the inhabited earth” and Jesus called him “the father of the lie”. It was this serpent who in Gen 3:4 contradicted Jehovah and insisted “you will not die”.
  1. If Satan want’s to promote the lie the dead live on, - and 2. we are ordered not to contact the dead as unclean, - but 3. when people do they contact spirits that claim to be the dead = We must be talking to demonic forces!
Does that add up with King Sauls experience?

Saul had turned away from Jehovah – so much so that Samuel refused any longer to see Saul. (1 Samuel 15:35) And your quote shows Jehovah had stopped giving him any informoation. also Samuel was God’s prophet who opposed spirit mediums. – So does it add up that a spirit medium would be able to get him to come and talk to Saul when dead? :confused:

Second, if Jehovah had totally rejected Saul and refused to give him anymore information – (that is why he resorted to a pagan spirit medium and shows how far he had gone apostate) Do you think a spirit medium could force Jehovah to reveal information to Saul? :confused:

Saul did believe the spirit was Samuel. (he took the spirit and the mediums word on this) And the account uses the name “Samuel” for the spirit - But the logic and the overall teachings of the scriptures lead us to conclude this was a demonic spirit Saul had called up.

And if infact the dead can be contacted – how unkind of Jehovah to forbid people from contacting their dead loved ones. 🤷
 
You know, you can make scripture say anything you like if you don’t agree with the author.

For instance, scripture can be so easily manipulated that somebody could say to you, that Jesus was an extraterrestrial from the planet Moses, or from the planet Abraham!

And this is happening in 1 Samuel 28, where the author has fittingly and appropriately decided to use the name Samuel instead of the devil’s name. But if somebody doesn’t agree with the author and so he can make it say whatever he likes. He can say that King Saul was talking with the Angel Gabriel and not with the Devil. Who says it wasn’t the angel Gabriel? Well, the author says it wasn’t the Angel Gabriel or the devil.

Here’s another example; if the author has written the scriptural interpretation and has considered it to be accurate, and if you really just don’t agree with what the author has written, and so you can make it say whatever you like. For instance, Jesus was taken up to heaven and the angels were with him (see Acts 1:9-11) and if you don’t agree with the author that Jesus was taken up by angels and disappeared into the clouds, thus you can say this, “And aliens came with their space ship and beamed him up and, for the first time Jesus met Captain Kirk from the Star Trek Enterprise.” What fallacy!

Nevertheless, what the author has said we must believe. We can’t say, “Oh, it seems like the devil is talking through this guy, even if the author has written Samuel’s name so many times.” What say you, that it was the angel Gabriel who spoke with King Saul? Well, the author says it. The author has judged and decided, “No, King Saul was taking with Samuel!”

You either agree with what the author has said or you make it say whatever you like.
 
You know, you can make scripture say anything you like if you don’t agree with the author. …
You either agree with what the author has said or you make it say whatever you like.
That Jehovah would in no way approve of or cooperate with Saul’s action is shown by his later statement through Isaiah:
"And in case they should say to you people: ‘Apply to the spiritistic mediums or to those having a spirit of prediction …’ is it not to its God that any people should apply? Should there be application to dead persons in behalf of living persons?..”— (Isa 8:19, 20.) 🤷

Therefore, when the account reads: “When the woman saw ‘Samuel’” it obviously recounts the event as viewed by the medium, (who was deceived by the spirit that impersonated Samuel.) (1Sa 28:12).

But I’m not the only one who comes to this conclusion. 😛 Here is a quote from a Bible scholar who says most early theologians agree with my logic! 😊 (I have underlined some bits- scan these at least)

The Commentary on the Old Testament, by C. F. Keil and F. Delitzsch (1973, Vol. II, First Samuel, p. 265), (quote)…“Nevertheless the fathers, reformers, and earlier Christian theologians, with very few exceptions, assumed that there was not a real appearance of Samuel, but only an imaginary one. … an apparent image of Samuel was presented to the eye of Saul through demoniacal arts. Luther and Calvin adopted the same view, and the earlier Protestant theologians followed them in regarding the apparition as nothing but a diabolical spectre, a phantasm, or diabolical spectre in the form of Samuel, and Samuel’s announcement as nothing but a diabolical revelation made by divine permission, in which truth is mixed with falsehood.” (end of quote)

In a footnote this Commentary says: (quote) “Thus Luther says . . . ‘The raising of Samuel by a soothsayer or witch, in 1 Sam. xxviii. 11, 12, was certainly merely a spectre of the devil; not only because the Scriptures state that it was effected by a woman who was full of devils (for who could believe that the souls of believers, who are in the hand of God, . . . were under the power of the devil, and of simple men?), but also because it was evidently in opposition to the command of God that Saul and the woman inquired of the dead…’
Calvin also regards the apparition as only a spectre . . . : ‘It is certain,’ he says, ‘that it was not really Samuel, for God would never have allowed His prophets to be subjected to such diabolical conjuring. For here is a sorceress calling up the dead from the grave. Does any one imagine that God wished His prophet to be exposed to such ignominy; as if the devil had power over the bodies and souls of the saints which are in His keeping? The souls of the saints are said to rest . . . in God, waiting for their happy resurrection. Besides, are we to believe that Samuel took his cloak with him into the grave? For all these reasons, it appears evident that the apparition was nothing more than a spectre, and that the senses of the woman herself were so deceived, that she thought she saw Samuel, whereas it really was not he.’ (end of quote)

Make your own decision friend. 🙂 But add to the opinion of the church fathers and reformers what the Bible says about the dead in the scriptures I have quoted in my earlier posts. Post 45 had lots. (I won’t post further on this passage) 😉
 
Dear “Regardless”,

I will just say this one thing, and then I will no longer read on this thread, as there are others who can expound on Scripture better thanmyself.

I love the Lord and all He gave us in the Catholic Church. The authority that the Church has in teaching us faith and morals is there to protect us. It protects us from going off into tangents and getting the truth confused.
Just look at all the various denominations who had founders who thought that “this is it…I understand the truth and I will go out and tell others.” THEY CAN’T ALL BE RIGHT!
Code:
In spite of sinners in the Church, there are saints who obey and grow in sanctity to be like the Lord, according  to how He wants them to be.
Jesus Christ our Lord, the Second Person of the Blessed Trinity has given us everything we need to do His will, and be saved. The treasures He gave us are all there for us to use, and when we obey he sanctifies us.

Peace in Our Saviour,

Dorothy
 
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