Jehovah Witness Bible Translation

[noprem]

Confused or lost? Actually, I do not want to seem like I am stereotyping,but most of the JW’s I have dealt with are not the most educated people. Many seem attracted to the JW’s due to a sense of “belonging” to a family he or she did not have growing up. Get my point?

“When they saw the courage of Peter and John and realized that they were unschooled, ordinary men, they were astonished and they took note that these men had been with Jesus.” Acts 4:13
“What is more, I consider everything a loss compared to the surpassing greatness of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whose sake I have lost all things. I consider them rubbish, that I may gain Christ” Php 3:8, from the highly-educated Paul.

 

[PJM]

=Big Dummy;8268817]satsonline.org/userfiles/Baumgarten%20K,%20MTh%20Thesis%20(Final).pdf

A linguistic critique of the “New World translation of the Holy Scriptures (NWT)” in connection with Christ’s deityBrian N. Kneser

Let’s keep what is SIMPLE TEUTH; simply TRUE

LUKE 1:26-35 " In the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God to a city of Galilee named Nazareth, to a virgin betrothed to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin’s name was Mary. And he came to her and said, “Hail, FULL OF GRACE, the Lord is with you!” But she was greatly troubled at the saying, and considered in her mind what sort of greeting this might be. And the angel said to her, “Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favor with God. And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bear a son, and you shall call his name Jesus. He will be great, and will be called the Son of the Most High; and the Lord God will give to him the throne of his father David, and he will reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there will be no end.” And Mary said to the angel, "How shall this be, since I have no husband?" And the angel said to her, "The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you;*** therefore the child to be born will be called holy, the Son of God."***

John 10: 37-38 “If I am not doing the works of my Father, then do not believe me;
but if I do them, even though you do not believe me, believe the works, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me and I am in the Father.”

So what God say’s is IMPORTANT and TRUE; why Mr. Smith teaches…

God Bless you,
Pat

 

[noprem]

And Paradise is, I just had a discussion on this, in this case, Paradise is not Heaven but it did not effectively change the conversation. It is “Sheol” and mentioned elsewhere in Luke. One can research exactly where “Paradise” is in this and it has effects elsewhere such as in the Creed.

“Paradise” is a translation of “garden”. Not “sheol” (nor “limbo”, as someone else said).
It is “the garden in Eden”. (Not ‘of Eden’; Gen 2:8)

It was Jehovah’s intent to have all humans living in such a garden, extended earthwide."So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them. God blessed them and said to them, “Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it. Rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air and over every living creature that moves on the ground … God saw all that he had made, and it was very good. And there was evening, and there was morning–the sixth day. Now the LORD God had planted a garden in the east, in Eden; and there he put the man he had formed … The LORD God took the man and put him in the Garden of Eden to work it and take care of it.”

This life was to extend forever, unless man disobeyed.
"The LORD said ,“but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it you will surely die.” … "The woman said to the serpent, “We may eat fruit from the trees in the garden, but God did say, ‘You must not eat fruit from the tree that is in the middle of the garden, and you must not touch it, or you will die.’” No disobedience, no death.

Has Jehovah’s purpose changed?
“The highest heavens belong to the LORD, but the earth he has given to man.” Ps 115
“A little while, and the wicked will be no more; though you look for them, they will not be found. But the meek will inherit the land and enjoy great peace … the righteous will inherit the land and dwell in it forever.” Ps 37; cf. Mt 5:5
“For this is what the LORD says–he who created the heavens, he is God; he who fashioned and made the earth, he founded it; he did not create it to be empty, but formed it to be inhabited–he says: “I am the LORD, and there is no other.”” Isa 42
“For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways,” declares the LORD. “As the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts … so is my word that goes out from my mouth: It will not return to me empty, but will accomplish what I desire and achieve the purpose for which I sent it.” Isa 55

But sinful ones don’t deserve paradise- remember Adam and Eve and the flaming sword?So, no reward for us?
"“I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life” John 5
“For even the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.” Mr 10
“No one living in Zion will say, “I am ill”; and the sins of those who dwell there will be forgiven.” Isa 33
“[God] will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away.” Rev 21

Road2, would you accept unending life in a paradise, even if your present beliefs had to be put aside because of it?

 

[noprem]

I agree that some fundamental flaws can be found in such as that quote from John. Though we are reading it in the English language, to me that verse and others have been very beautiful in a poetic sense. “…and the Word was God”, poetically, see how their translations seems to disrupt the beauty of it “…and the Word was a god”, though one could argue that I just might be accustomed to this as one of the more famous pertinent quotes in the Bible.

A good point. Many object to our Ps 23:1 just because they’re used to the scan of “The LORD is my shepherd …”; the extra two syllables don’t sound right.
In any case, accurate prose beats inaccurate poetry any time, IMO. You?

With this said, other than some of these isolated quotes, read this:

Hadn’t seen that; reasonable objections, from an RC source.
Many do find fault with “substituting” God’s name for a title of his [in the NT]. My reply: First, read the appendix on the topic in our Reference (large size) Bible, for our translators’ view of the matter.
Second, the Hebrew texts have a name some 6000 times in the OT; who authorized the removal of it in all but the NWT, JB (Catholic), and ASV (Episcopalian)?
Third, would Jesus have failed to use The Name in quoting e.g. Ps 110:1 at Mt 22:41–? Besides, both scriptures make sense only if “Jehovah” is used as per David. And did you know that the inspired NT writers quoted that one verse many times? If it was that important to them …
“Means” and “is” are both reasonable translations of the original.
The Colossians bit is a minor point. Other, clearer scriptures obviate the Jesus=Jehovah business: Rev 3:12 and 14:14 e.g. And Daniel and Stephen both ‘saw into heaven’ and saw the Father and the Son- as separate beings- and didn’t report seeing the Spirit. (BTW, both saw- Stephen in actuality and Isaiah prophetically- heaven after Jesus’ resurrection and glorification.)

I have read others who have given positive reviews so criticism does seem to often involve some of the isolated verses. This is only fair to say this as examples can be brought out of incompetency, how do they read and translate Greek, etc.

I- a non-scholar- enjoy using various Gk-Eng-Gk NT and dictionaries. (Our Kingdom Interlinear, B. Wilson’s Emphatic Diaglott, Strong, Vine et al.) Using these “authorities” I can puzzle out many words, and I increase my understanding of English as well.
For example, Jesus said “exert yourselves vigorously …” That “exert” is Gk agon, which is the root of our “agony”, which shows how vigorously we should try to get through that narrow door.)
Another, much less trivial example is at Lu 11:9, the KJV and the respected NIV both say, “ask … seek … knock”, which has contributed to the idea of ‘instant, permanent’ conversion. Strong and others show the word to be in the infinitive, used as the gerund. (“asking … seeking … knocking”) This is borne out also by Paul in his many exhortations to the “saints” (!) to stay on the straight and narrow. (cf. Demas)

Anyway, in almost 30 years I have yet to see anyone teach on Ps 37:29 as the plain language mandates it: There will be a restoration of a crime-free, paradisaical earth, on which all will live forever. If the JWs are right about that, in the face of the almost-universal heaven-or-hell teaching of the churches, then they just may be right about everything else.

 

[Nicea325]

“When they saw the courage of Peter and John and realized that they were unschooled, ordinary men, they were astonished and they took note that these men had been with Jesus.” Acts 4:13
“What is more, I consider everything a loss compared to the surpassing greatness of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whose sake I have lost all things. I consider them rubbish, that I may gain Christ” Php 3:8, from the highly-educated Paul.

Yeah but the big difference is that Peter and John were not teaching conflicting teachings like JW’s do. Unless Peter taught baptism was not necessary and John said it was necessary? JW’s are well known masters of deceptions by perverting scripture and history to suit their false doctrines.

 

[Fink]

If the JWs are right about that, in the face of the almost-universal heaven-or-hell teaching of the churches, then they just may be right about everything else.

The trouble is that the JWs are NOT right when you reject the doctrine of Heaven or Hell.
Why would an organisation which didnt even exist until more than 1.800 years after our Lords Ascension, know better than the Church which was founded by our Lord, Himself; and which can trace its history back to the time of the Apostles. You cant read the Bible the better part of 2,000 years after the last book was penned, and expect to be able to correctly interpret it. You cant think with the mind of the Church unless you`re part of it.

Therell be a Paradise, all right; but thats only part of it. The spiritual side (which you deny) is the Beatific Vision: the raw spirit-to-Spirit contact with God, plus an awareness of all of the other blesseds and the (unfallen) angels. Plus indescribable love.
A union of knowledge and love.

1 John 3:2:
“…we shall see Him as He is.”
The Beatific Vision in the proverbial nutshell.

Incidentally, the Limbo of the Fathers WAS the state of the souls of the just, before Jesus led them into Heaven at His Ascension.

 

[noprem]

The trouble is that the JWs are NOT right when you reject the doctrine of Heaven or Hell.

Heaven: Where God and other spirit creatures live, in spirit bodies. 1 Cor 15:42-50
Earth: Where humans and other physical life lives, in bodies of flesh and bone (like the hand you type with).
Hell: Over the centuries there have been many ideas about what this is, where it is, and what happens there. You’ll have to tell me what your idea is (or quote your Catechism) before I can reply intelligently.

an organisation which didnt even exist until more than 1.800 years after our Lords Ascension

In another post which you read I gave the history of Jehovah’s Witnesses from Holy Scripture, from the first human one (Abel) down to “Jesus Christ, [who is] the faithful witness”. No need to do it again.

Therell be a Paradise, all right; but thats only part of it. The spiritual side …

And where or when do you expect the physical side, if at all? I look for it, in faith, as a promise soon to be realized: Heb 11:1,2; Gen 1:28; Ps 37:29; Rev 16:14,16, 21:3,4.

1 John 3:2: “…we shall see Him as He is.” The Beatific Vision in the proverbial nutshell.

I agree. In at least two books the Bible describes Jesus himself seeing Jehovah “as He is” after his resurrection and glorification. Dan 7:13; Heb 9:11,12,24, 10:12. Then the Holy Ones (Saints) can have the same experience. Heb 10:19,20

Incidentally, the Limbo of the Fathers WAS the state of the souls of the just, before Jesus led them into Heaven at His Ascension.

Like Hell, Limbos exist in religious literature in many forms. Limbo of infants especially has had several versions over the centuries; many now see no need for it. From the ever-popular Wikipedia, “And in 1984, when Joseph Ratzinger, then Cardinal Prefect of that Congregation, stated that, as a private theologian, he rejected the claim that children who die unbaptised cannot attain salvation, he was speaking for many academic theologians of his background and training.” These days, of course, he speaks From the Chair; what says he now?

 

[Fink]

Heaven: Where God and other spirit creatures live, in spirit bodies. 1 Cor 15:42-50
Earth: Where humans and other physical life lives, in bodies of flesh and bone (like the hand you type with).

Hell: Over the centuries there have been many ideas about what this is, where it is, and what happens there. You’ll have to tell me what your idea is (or quote your Catechism) before I can reply intelligently.

In another post which you read I gave the history of Jehovah’s Witnesses from Holy Scripture, from the first human one (Abel) down to “Jesus Christ, [who is] the faithful witness”. No need to do it again.

And where or when do you expect the physical side, if at all? I look for it, in faith, as a promise soon to be realized: Heb 11:1,2; Gen 1:28; Ps 37:29; Rev 16:14,16, 21:3,4.
I agree. In at least two books the Bible describes Jesus himself seeing Jehovah “as He is” after his resurrection and glorification. Dan 7:13; Heb 9:11,12,24, 10:12. Then the Holy Ones (Saints) can have the same experience. Heb 10:19,20

Like Hell, Limbos exist in religious literature in many forms. Limbo of infants especially has had several versions over the centuries; many now see no need for it. From the ever-popular Wikipedia, “And in 1984, when Joseph Ratzinger, then Cardinal Prefect of that Congregation, stated that, as a private theologian, he rejected the claim that children who die unbaptised cannot attain salvation, he was speaking for many academic theologians of his background and training.” These days, of course, he speaks From the Chair; what says he now?

 

[Fink]

Heaven: Where God and other spirit creatures live, in spirit bodies. 1 Cor 15:42-50
Earth: Where humans and other physical life lives, in bodies of flesh and bone (like the hand you type with).

For the sake of this post, youll have to do me a favour, and interpret the word "soul" the way "we" do. i cant use any other word without risking confusion.

Theres a serious problem with your understanding of what a spirit is. A created spirit has a nature/essence which is totally different from that possessed by matter: it consists "only" of an intellect and a will; and doesnt occupy space. To take the Devil as an example: he exists nowhere; but focusses his intellect and will on any PHYSICAL location that he desires. Ditto with the other demons.

The passing of time is different, as well.

Every human being possesses a (material) human body plus an immortal spiritual soul which, as already mentioned, is the seat of the intellect and the will. Those two attributes of the human soul are what separate us from all of the other animals. “Man is a rational animal.”
All other animals live by instinct; and can`t hold concepts like self-awareness, life, death in their minds. The human soul is the VITAL difference.

During life, the soul animates the body; but in this life, were so immersed in the physical that we may not even be aware of the spiritual side of our nature. Were fed spiritual truths through our physical senses.
As persons: we are not complete persons unless body and soul are united.

At death, the soul ceases to animate the body, simply because the body is no longer capable of being animated.
“Freed” from the body, the soul becomes aware of the spiritual; and enters the state of Heaven, Purgatory (its Biblical) or Hell. :eek: Purgatory and Hell are NOT places, but states, keeping in mind that the soul doesnt occupy space.
Also keep in mind that a spirit is not just a person/being who happens to be invisible. It seems that thats what you believe...... Theres no such thing as a spirit body. No angel. good or fallen, has a spirit body.
God Himself, is totally spirit; and is “everywhere” only in the sense that His Will sustains everything in existence.

At the General Resurrection on Doomsday, for better or for worse ( ), the soul will be "re"united with a (resurrected} human body. One of two states and places: Heaven or Hell.

Hell: Over the centuries there have been many ideas about what this is, where it is, and what happens there. You’ll have to tell me what your idea is (or quote your Catechism) before I can reply intelligently.

Using the current meaning of the word “Hell”:
Right now, its the state of the souls of the damned, and the state of the demons (fallen angels). Theres suffereng; and the worst of it is being cut off forever from the Beatific Vision. At the same time, their love of SELF (ie nothing) and hatred of God are so intense that they don`t want anything to do with Him. They reject the only One Who can satisfy our needs and wants.
From Doomsday onwards (forever), the suffering will be even worse because of the bodily suffering, as well. UGLY, misshapen spastic bodies! The sensory suffering will depend on the unrepented mortal sins committed in this life.
Hell will be a (physical) place, as well as a (spiritual) state.

In another post which you read I gave the history of Jehovah’s Witnesses…

No need to do it again.

i dont remember reading it; but, in any case, thatd be no history. Scripture has been twisted.

And where or when do you expect the physical side, if at all? …

i get the feeling that your leaders tell you that we Catholics reject the doctrine of the Resurrection. Is that what they tell you…?
Youve been extensively lied to about us, to the point where your idea of the Church is just a caricature of what she teaches...... The Eighth Commandment exists for a reason. "Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour." To be blunt: some of your leaders are going to cop it......unless they sincerely repent. :( [The same goes for SDAs and others.] Theyve also pulled the wool over your eyes regarding the depth of theology: eg our knowledge of the inner Life of God. Its not your doing: its theirs. They`re depriving you of so much awesome Truth.

I agree. In at least two books the Bible describes Jesus himself…

Then the Holy Ones (Saints) can have the same experience. Heb 10:19,20

The exact opposite of Hell.
At Doomsday, the soul will be "re"united with a resurrected body in a now perfectly coordinated union of soul and body: ie no more mental or physical disability. Each person will be as God “meant” him to be. Total happiness. Radiance. Perfect coordination. Bodily grace and beauty.
Each person will be totally happy; but the intensity for each person will depend on how he lived his life on this earth.

Like Hell, Limbos exist in religious literature in many forms.

The no-longer existent Limbo of the Fathers was Fact.
As said before, it was the state (not a physical place) of the souls of the just before our Lords Ascension. They didnt experience the Beatific Vision until then.

Limbo of infants especially has had several versions over the centuries; many now see no need for it…
…These days, of course, he speaks From the Chair; what says he now?

Theres big difference betwween the speculated Limbo of infants and Hell. Saint Thomas Aquinas stated that if Limbo does exist, thered be no suffering (Why should there be?), no sense of loss, just perfect NATURAL happiness.

The jury is out; and probably always will be.

That iidiotic 6,000 character limit!!!
To be continued?

 

[T_More]

These days, of course, he speaks From the Chair; what says he now?

I wish you would answer how the governing body, when speaking from the pages of the Watchtower on behalf of Jehovah, can claim that the faithful & discreet slave has been feeding it’s members since Pentecost when there is no one before Russell.

Noprem, these discussions can go around and around till the cows come home. But it all boild down to this: who has the authority bestowed upon them by Jesus Christ? When that can be established, the teachings of that church/congregation are guided into all truth as promised by Christ Himself in John 16:13.

The WTBS knows the importance of this issue, whcih is why they made this claim:

“Beginning with Pentecost, 33 C.E., and continuing through the 19 centuries since then, this slavelike congregation has been feeding its members spiritually.”-Watchtower 1981 Mar 1 p.24

So this begs the question: who was the slave before Russell and where was it? Why is this so important? Because Christ promised His Church would never fail in Matthew 16. Logic and reason would suggest that it would have been a futile exercise on the Apostles part when Christ gave them the commission to go and teach all that He had commanded them and to baptize in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit if they were just going to be corrupted. If they could not get the job done, how can the WTBS dare to say that they
could succeed where the Apostles failed? It makes no sense and defies scripture.

The WTBS, and all non Catholic denominations, are a product of pride, plain and simple, which is the root of all sin. They are too proud to admit when they are wrong, and have been so poisoned against the Catholic Church that they can’t see the forest through the trees. I’ll pray for you, noprem.

 

[Road2Damascus]

The 144,000 is always a big deal with Jehovah’s Witnesses:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/144000_%28number%29#Jehovah.27s_Witnesses

From how I understand it, it seems they believe only this limited number of people will be saved.

This “remnant” is considered to constitute the faithful and discreet slave of Matthew 24:45 and Luke 12:42, with teaching authority over Jehovah’s Witnesses worldwide. In practice, all doctrinal and organizational decisions are made by the Governing Body of Jehovah’s Witnesses, which is said to represent that “slave class”.[12][13]

 

[Nicea325]

Quote:
an organisation which didnt even exist until more than 1.800 years after our Lords Ascension

In another post which you read I gave the history of Jehovah’s Witnesses from Holy Scripture, from the first human one (Abel) down to “Jesus Christ, [who is] the faithful witness”. No need to do it again.

Exactly…no need to go there from Scripture because it is your poor interpretation of Scripture. Again,it is one thing to say one is a Witness for God and another is to believe the **1800’s JW organization **has existed since the OT. That is where you are DEAD WRONG!

 

[noprem]

For the sake of this post, youll have to do me a favour, and interpret the word "soul" the way "we" do ... Using the current meaning of the word "Hell": Right now, its the state of the souls of the damned, and the state of the demons (fallen angels). Theres suffereng; and the worst of it is being cut off forever from the Beatific Vision. At the same time, their love of **SELF** (ie nothing) and hatred of God are so intense that they dont want anything to do with Him. They reject the only One Who can satisfy our needs and wants.
From Doomsday onwards (forever), the suffering will be even worse because of the bodily suffering, as well. UGLY, misshapen spastic bodies! The sensory suffering will depend on the unrepented mortal sins committed in this life. Hell will be a (physical) place, as well as a (spiritual) state.The exact opposite of Hell

This is the part I can respond to. The others are either another topic or are couched in your usual snide phrases. That’s annoying and unChristian, so I’ll limit my answers to those of your comments that match the standard set by Peter- your own “first Pope”. (1 Pet 3:15)

“Right now, it`s …” So your idea of Hell is in flux; I’ll stick with what you’ve put on my screen here and now.

From Doomsday onwards (forever), the suffering will be even worse because of the bodily suffering, as well. UGLY, misshapen spastic bodies.

So, you’re a Johnathon Edwards disciple? He (and you) put dead people there, then, to be punished for their unshriven sins. (Although Edwards wouldn’t have agreed that your church’s priests have shriving power.) BTW your use of “spastic” in this context is considered unkind these days; unkind to those with CP and such who have uncontrollable spasms.
My problem with that- scriptural, of course- is Paul’s teaching on death in Romans 5:
“Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world and with sin death, death thus coming to all men inasmuch as all sinned- before the law there was sin in the world, even though sin is not imputed when there is not law- I say, from Adam to Moses death reigned, even over those who had not sinned by breaking a precept as did Adam, that type of the man to come.” V.12-14
Sin leads to death, for all. And Paul’s claim about death is at 6:7.
“A man who is dead has been freed from sin.” Just like the laws against double jeopardy in so-called civilized nations, one cannot suffer a second penalty- by torture- having suffered one already- by death- for crimes. Is your God less civilized than the framers of e.g. the US Constitution? Mine isn’t. Paul goes further, in what has become proverbial in our common culture: "The wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

From Doomsday onwards (forever)

“Forever” is a common teaching of the mainstream churches, but not scriptural: “Then death and the nether world ***** were hurled into the pool of fire, which is the second death” Rev 20:14 My wife is Hawaiian and can tell you what happens to any object ‘hurled into Kilauea’. Nothing left to be treated or mistreated in any way.

The sensory suffering [in Hell] will depend on …

Sensory suffering depends on one’s physical state- dead or alive.

Hell will be a (physical) place, as well as a (spiritual) state.The exact opposite of Hell

I know you don’t mean the implied self-contradiction; please restate.

That iidiotic 6,000 character limit!!! To be continued?

I don’t have any such trouble. Perhaps because I don’t ramble or answer what I wasn’t asked, and because I cite scripture instead of quoting the traditions of men.

All quotes are from The St. Joseph Edition of The New American Bible, Catholic Book Publishing Co., New York, 1970, nihil obstat S. J. Hardegen, OFM, SSL and C. P. Ceroke, OCarm, STD; imprimatur Patrick Cardinal O’Boyle, DD, [late] Archbishop of Washington.
***** fn here and at 1:18 explains that “nether world” is “the abode of the dead”. IOW where Paul’s dead folks are.
1 Pet 3:25

 

[noprem]

The 144,000 is always a big deal with Jehovah’s Witnesses: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/144000_%28number%29#Jehovah.27s_Witnesses From how I understand it, it seems they believe only this limited number of people will be saved.

From how I understand it,

And others have misunderstood it as well, in spite of our teaching otherwise for over 100 years, always taking that teaching from the Bible:
Ps 37:29 and many others:“The righteous shall inherit the land, and dwell therein for ever.” Perfectly in line with Our Lord’s quote of V.11 at Mt 5:5.
“Thou [Jesus] art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.” Rev 5:9,10
So they serve as rulers over those living on the paradisaical earth, much as the US Congress and President rule over those living in the US- but with much better results. (Ps 72) Fewer than 500 in Washington to rule over some 300,000,000; 144,001 to rule over an earthly number “that no man can count”. And one of these, it’s worth noting, was, is, and ever shall be under the authority of Another: 1 Cor 15:24-28.
“Then [cometh] the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy [that] shall be destroyed [is] death. For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under [him, it is] manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto himthat put all things under him, that God may be all in all.”

 

[noprem]

Yeah but the big difference is that Peter and John were not teaching conflicting teachings like JW’s do. Unless Peter taught baptism was not necessary and John said it was necessary? JW’s are well known masters of deceptions by perverting scripture and history to suit their false doctrines.

Your comment was about our alleged lack of formal training, as priests have in seminary, I suppose. My reply was apposite; yours is not, after “Yeah”.
This man also lacked the training that the mainstream religion of his day offered, but when “[He] finished this discourse [he] left the crowds spellbound at his teaching. The reason was that he taught with authority and not like their scribes.” Mt 7:28,29
1 Pet 3:15

 

[noprem]

For the sake of this post, you`ll have to do me a favour,

i dont remember reading it; but, in any case, thatd be no history. Scripture has been twisted.

IOW “I, Fink, swear that I haven’t read a scriptural defense of JW beliefs, but since it comes from JWs it has been twisted; no need for me to read scripture in such a case.”
You finally made me laugh!
1 Pet 3:15.

 

[Road2Damascus]

Thank you for clarifying this and taking your time to do so. I get it now.

And others have misunderstood it as well, in spite of our teaching otherwise for over 100 years, always taking that teaching from the Bible:
Ps 37:29 and many others:“The righteous shall inherit the land, and dwell therein for ever.” Perfectly in line with Our Lord’s quote of V.11 at Mt 5:5.
“Thou [Jesus] art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.” Rev 5:9,10
So they serve as rulers over those living on the paradisaical earth, much as the US Congress and President rule over those living in the US- but with much better results. (Ps 72) Fewer than 500 in Washington to rule over some 300,000,000; 144,001 to rule over an earthly number “that no man can count”. And one of these, it’s worth noting, was, is, and ever shall be under the authority of Another: 1 Cor 15:24-28.
“Then [cometh] the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy [that] shall be destroyed [is] death. For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under [him, it is] manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto himthat put all things under him, that God may be all in all.”

Looks like the underlining function acted up in the original post but it is understood all the same.

 

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Noprem, your thoughts please on these Wathtower quotes about the faithful & discreet slave:

“Down through the years the slavelike congregation has been feeding its true members faithfully and discreetly. From Pentecost, A.D. 33, up to this very present hour this has been lovingly and carefully performed. Regularly and progressively such a great crowd are receiving their spiritual food through the columns of the eighty-one-year-old instrument in the hands of the “slave” class, The Watchtower, the religious magazine with the largest circulation in the world. Surely Jehovah and Jesus Christ have supplied no hasty, expedient form of leadership for the great crowd of true worshipers. Yes, beyond doubt the old but awake “faithful and discreet slave” stands today as a wonder watchman to the peoples of the nations. Just as their Master, Jesus Christ, stood for the rise and fall of many in Israel in the first century of the Christian Era, so now before the whole world the anointed witnesses stand as a guide to survival for a minority of mankind but prove to be an occasion for stumbling into Armageddon destruction for the rest.-Luke 2:34.” Watchtower 1960 July 15 p. 435

“Nevertheless, through all the centuries of apostasy, there would exist individual wheatlike Christians, genuine anointed ones. (Matthew 13:24-29, 36-43) Thus, when the Lord’s day dawned in October 1914, there were still true Christians on earth.” Revelation - Its Grand Climax at Hand! p. 31

"In this regard, the book God’s Kingdom of a Thousand Years Has Approached stated: “As to just how the ‘faithful and discreet slave’ class existed and served down through the centuries after the death of the apostles of the Master Jesus Christ, we do not have a distinct historical picture. Apparently one generation of the ‘slave’ class fed the next succeeding generation thereof. (2 Timothy 2:2)” Watchtower 1995 May 15 p.16

“Jehovah’s Witnesses believe that this parable pertains to the one true congregation of Jesus Christ’s anointed followers. Beginning with Pentecost, 33 C.E., and continuing through the 19 centuries since then, this slavelike congregation has been feeding its members spiritually, doing so faithfully and discreetly. the one approved channel representing God’s kingdom on earth in the “time of the end.”” Watchtower 1981 March 1 p.24 Do You Appreciate the “Faithful and Discreet Slave”?

“That “slave,” according to Jesus’ description, would be on hand when the Lord departed for heaven and would still be alive at the time of Christ’s return. Such a description could not possibly fit an individual human. But it does fit Christ’s faithful anointed congregation viewed as a whole.” United in Worship of the Only True God p.119

“We understand that this heavenly calling continued down through the centuries, though during the so-called Dark Ages, there may have been times when the number of anointed ones were very few.” Watchtower 1996 Aug 15 p. 31

What proof has been provided to support these statements? Not a single historical person or group has ever been identified as part of the Slave, even immediately prior to Russell. Russell was not a link in a line of a like minded “slave class”. He rejected his Presbyterian (Calvinist) Church, lost his faith after debating an Atheist, drifted through several Adventist groups, joined up with Barbour and then split from him to take control of his own unique way of worship. After forming a new religious group he said ‘I confess indebtedness to Adventists as well as to other denominations.’

If there has always been JW’s since the beginning, why did God chose the “apostate” Catholic church to compile the Bible Canon in the 4th and 5th century and not use his “Faithful Slave”?

I’m really looking forward to you providing the unbroken thread of JW’s that leads all the way back to Peter, and ultimately, Christ.

 

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And others have misunderstood it as well, in spite of our teaching otherwise for over 100 years, always taking that teaching from the Bible:
Ps 37:29 and many others:“The righteous shall inherit the land, and dwell therein for ever.” Perfectly in line with Our Lord’s quote of V.11 at Mt 5:5.
“Thou [Jesus] art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.” Rev 5:9,10
So they serve as rulers over those living on the paradisaical earth, much as the US Congress and President rule over those living in the US- but with much better results. (Ps 72) Fewer than 500 in Washington to rule over some 300,000,000; 144,001 to rule over an earthly number “that no man can count”. And one of these, it’s worth noting, was, is, and ever shall be under the authority of Another: 1 Cor 15:24-28.
“Then [cometh] the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy [that] shall be destroyed [is] death. For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under [him, it is] manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto himthat put all things under him, that God may be all in all.”

Russell did not teach that there was to be a “little flock” class in heaven and one “great crowd” on earth.

“Does the Great Company receive life direct from God on the spirit plane? Answer – Yes, they receive life direct in that they have been begotten of the Holy Spirit, and when they are begotten they are just the same way as the little flock, because we are called in the one hope of our calling. They do not make their calling and election sure, but not being worthy of second death, they therefore receive life on the spirit plane.” What Pastor Russell Saidp.297

Later, Rutherford said:

" all the facts and the scriptures bearing upon the matter under consideration show that those who form the great multitude constitute a spirit class, born on the spirit plane." Watchtower 1927 15 January pp.19-20 “The Great Multitude,”

Later, Rutherford changed the doctrine that had been held since Russell started his movement. To claim that the WTBS has been teaching what you are claiming for 100 years is just false, noprem.

 

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Heaven: Where God and other spirit creatures live, in spirit bodies. 1 Cor 15:42-50
Earth: Where humans and other physical life lives, in bodies of flesh and bone (like the hand you type with).
Hell: Over the centuries there have been many ideas about what this is, where it is, and what happens there. You’ll have to tell me what your idea is (or quote your Catechism) before I can reply intelligently.

In another post which you read I gave the history of Jehovah’s Witnesses from Holy Scripture, from the first human one (Abel) down to “Jesus Christ, [who is] the faithful witness”. No need to do it again.

And where or when do you expect the physical side, if at all? I look for it, in faith, as a promise soon to be realized: Heb 11:1,2; Gen 1:28; Ps 37:29; Rev 16:14,16, 21:3,4.
I agree. In at least two books the Bible describes Jesus himself seeing Jehovah “as He is” after his resurrection and glorification. Dan 7:13; Heb 9:11,12,24, 10:12. Then the Holy Ones (Saints) can have the same experience. Heb 10:19,20

The Bible does not indicate humans will live forever on this earth. No scripture says mankind will be resurrected onto earth, whereas the Bible regularly discusses a heavenly resurrection. Use of the word paradise generally refers to heaven and Revelation places the Great Crowd in heaven.

Matthew 23:13 “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the kingdom of heaven in men’s faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to.”