Jehovah Witness Bible Translation

[Fink]

This is the part I can respond to. The others are either another topic or are couched in your usual snide phrases. That’s annoying and unChristian, so I’ll limit my answers to those of your comments that match the standard set by ***Peter- your own “first Pope”. ***(1 Pet 3:15)

“…your usual snide phrases…”?
So, have we met before? Did we trade insults in a former life?

“Right now, it`s …” So your idea of Hell is in flux; I’ll stick with what you’ve put on my screen here and now.

Can you expand?

So, you’re a Johnathon Edwards disciple?

No: id never heard of Johnathon Edwards. Actually, im a disciple of Jesus, the God-Man, Who founded the Church on Peter, and gave him the Keys. It`s much safer to stay within the almost 2,000 years-old Holy Spirit-guided Church.
If someone outside the Church happens to stumble on a bit of truth, well, good for him.

My problem with that- scriptural, of course- is…

See below.

Sensory suffering depends on one’s physical state- dead or alive. I know you don’t mean the implied self-contradiction; please restate.

There was no implied self-contradiction. Try re-reading it. But, to save you the trouble:
the sensory suffering was included AFTER the General Resurrection.

Because of your denial of the existence of the SPIRITUAL soul, you cant grasp what i intended to say. To again use the Devil as an example, he suffers! And hes “only” a spirit! Intellect and will, and nothing else. He suffers from the certain knowledge that he is forever separated from God; and his overwhelming hatred is another form of suffering. Ditto for the souls of the (self) damned, with the added knowledge that on Doomsday, there will be the added sensory suffering.
Cleared up?
[Speaking from bitter experience, mental suffering can be far worse than physical/sensory suffering.]

I don’t have any such trouble.*** Perhaps because I don’t ramble or answer what I*** wasn’t asked,…

In the circumstances, i couldnt (and still cant) see any option but to “ramble”. The reason for saying that is the shallowness of WBTS theology.
The intention was to give some much needed background.
The “rambling” didn`t help, though, did it? You discounted what was stated for*** your ***benefit.

I cite scripture instead of quoting the traditions of men.

So do i! In my own case, though, i stay within the boundaries set by the Church whose God-given mission is to teach, to sanctify, and to govern.
i don`t want to go staggering down blind alleys…or worse…
i want to be taught the richness and beauty of the Truth, not something which has torn the heart out of the truth of the very inner Life of God.

All quotes are from The St. Joseph Edition of The New American Bible, Catholic Book Publishing Co., New York, 1970, nihil obstat S. J. Hardegen, OFM, SSL and C. P. Ceroke, OCarm, STD…

You can quote Scripture until the proverbial cows come home; BUT:
Do you realise that there are now far in excess of thirty thousand (and counting) denominations which claim to be Bible-based? Only ONE of these was in existence before the so-called “Reformation”. Scripture on it`s own means little. Our Lord set up His Church to teach the Truth. In fact, the early Church “grew up” alongside the books of The New Testament.
What makes the WBTS unique?

By the way, on whose authority do you accept the authenticity of the 27 books of the New Testament? The NT Canon was set at the Third Council of Carthage in AD (NOT CE!) 397.
Thats a fair while after the supposedly "backslidden Catholic Church" (to quote Vines) went apostate!

IOW “I, Fink, swear that I haven’t read a scriptural defense of JW beliefs, but since it comes from JWs it has been twisted; no need for me to read scripture in such a case.”
You finally made me laugh!
1 Pet 3:15.

No. In fact:
i, Fink, swear that i have read a fair bit of literature published by the WBTS: eg
The Truth that leads to Everlasting (or Eternal?) Life
You Can Live Forever in Paradise on Earth
Should You Believe in The Trinity?
Reasoning from The Scriptures
Knowledge That Leads to Everlasting LIfe
Various issues of Awake and The Watchtower
Sorry!

Is it any wonder that so many of us othodox Christians are wary of anything stated/published by the WBTS, when it lies about us the way it does? A general example: “Should You Believe in The Trinity” uses straw man arguments to make a mockery of the Doctrine of The Blessed Trinity. Blatant dishonesty! That sort of tactic is used in other publications, as well. Heres one id forgotten: on page 41 of “You Can Live Forever in Paradise on Earth”:
Theres an illustration of disciples in the Upper Room with the tongues of fire over their heads. The caption reads: How could the holy spirit be a person, when ***it*** [emphasis added] filled about 120 disciples at the same time? The individual who put that caption is either: ignorant of the Doctrine of the Blessed Trinity, or DISHONEST. Take your pick. When applied to the Trinity, the word "Person" (Note: uppercase "P") is vastly different from when its (lowercase “p”, for a start) applied to any of us.*** And your leaders know it!***
Please, dont try to tell me otherwise. Youve been lied to!

To throw down the gauntlet:
i challenge you to click on this link, and read some of it: eg scroll down to “The Blessed Trinity”:
thesumma.info/reality/index.php

 

[theinquisitive]

I am aware of one alteration off hand in ‘The New World Translation’, and that is in John 1:1 which states; 'In the beginning the Word was, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a God.’ This is how the JWs get around the doctrine of the Trinity.

Actually,they use the Comma Johaneum, (1 John 5:7-8.) as do Protestants, to “get round the doctrine of the Trinity”!
Which (the comma)does NOT appear in the first Greek translations.
Even Augustinus is strangely silent on this matter. So best not to go down that road,as the C.Church it’s self is divided on that one.
One thing is at least indisputable, the “ordinary” Jehova’s Witness knows his/her bible better than most, who call themselves Catholic, or Protestant for that matter.
And for the most part defend their beliefs with vigor.

 

[juliamajor]

Actually,they use the Comma Johaneum, (1 John 5:7-8.) as do Protestants, to “get round the doctrine of the Trinity”!
Which (the comma)does NOT appear in the first Greek translations.
Even Augustinus is strangely silent on this matter. So best not to go down that road,as the C.Church it’s self is divided on that one.
One thing is at least indisputable, the “ordinary” Jehova’s Witness knows his/her bible better than most, who call themselves Catholic, or Protestant for that matter.
And for the most part defend their beliefs with vigor./QUK

Know scripture? I don’t thinks so. They can quote but so can a parrot-if trained. I have known many JW in my day and read a lot of there stuff including NWT , which believe me was a chore. I know how they train and freedom of action, freedom of thought is not part of their ideology. How can they learn about Christian biblical scholarship when they aren’t allowed and taught to distrust anything non- JW?
First and fundamentally they are not Christians so any claim to that is self- serving and denial on there part. You don’t believe Jesus is the Son of God- you are not a Christian. Go back to the basics . Read any of the Creeds- does their theology fit into them?-No.
As Pioneers they are taught how to get around tough questions, doublespeak and the art of luring some folks away subtlely. II saw them doing this with my grandmother.The prime reason she invited them back again and again, was that she loved to talk. With anyone and anybody. And she was deaf! So grandma was taking the JW’s for a ride. She had no interest in their religion at all. Her only interest was having an ear to chew on.
Do they really know or understand scripture or are they given a script to follow?

 

[theinquisitive]

Fink:
“…your usual snide phrases…”?
So, have we met before? Did we trade insults in a former life?

Can you expand?

No: id never heard of Johnathon Edwards. Actually, im a disciple of Jesus, the God-Man, Who founded the Church on Peter, and gave him the Keys. It`s much safer to stay within the almost 2,000 years-old Holy Spirit-guided Church.
If someone outside the Church happens to stumble on a bit of truth, well, good for him.

See below.

There was no implied self-contradiction. Try re-reading it. But, to save you the trouble:
the sensory suffering was included AFTER the General Resurrection.

Because of your denial of the existence of the SPIRITUAL soul, you cant grasp what i intended to say. To again use the Devil as an example, he suffers! And hes “only” a spirit! Intellect and will, and nothing else. He suffers from the certain knowledge that he is forever separated from God; and his overwhelming hatred is another form of suffering. Ditto for the souls of the (self) damned, with the added knowledge that on Doomsday, there will be the added sensory suffering.
Cleared up?
[Speaking from bitter experience, mental suffering can be far worse than physical/sensory suffering.]

In the circumstances, i couldnt (and still cant) see any option but to “ramble”. The reason for saying that is the shallowness of WBTS theology.
The intention was to give some much needed background.
The “rambling” didn`t help, though, did it? You discounted what was stated for*** your ***benefit.

So do i! In my own case, though, i stay within the boundaries set by the Church whose God-given mission is to teach, to sanctify, and to govern.
i don`t want to go staggering down blind alleys…or worse…
i want to be taught the richness and beauty of the Truth, not something which has torn the heart out of the truth of the very inner Life of God.

You can quote Scripture until the proverbial cows come home; BUT:
Do you realise that there are now far in excess of thirty thousand (and counting) denominations which claim to be Bible-based? Only ONE of these was in existence before the so-called “Reformation”. Scripture on it`s own means little. Our Lord set up His Church to teach the Truth. In fact, the early Church “grew up” alongside the books of The New Testament.
What makes the WBTS unique?

By the way, on whose authority do you accept the authenticity of the 27 books of the New Testament? The NT Canon was set at the Third Council of Carthage in AD (NOT CE!) 397.
Thats a fair while after the supposedly "backslidden Catholic Church" (to quote Vines) went apostate!

No. In fact:
i, Fink, swear that i have read a fair bit of literature published by the WBTS: eg
The Truth that leads to Everlasting (or Eternal?) Life
You Can Live Forever in Paradise on Earth
Should You Believe in The Trinity?
Reasoning from The Scriptures
Knowledge That Leads to Everlasting LIfe
Various issues of Awake and The Watchtower
Sorry!

Is it any wonder that so many of us othodox Christians are wary of anything stated/published by the WBTS, when it lies about us the way it does? A general example: “Should You Believe in The Trinity” uses straw man arguments to make a mockery of the Doctrine of The Blessed Trinity. Blatant dishonesty! That sort of tactic is used in other publications, as well. Heres one id forgotten: on page 41 of “You Can Live Forever in Paradise on Earth”:
Theres an illustration of disciples in the Upper Room with the tongues of fire over their heads. The caption reads: How could the holy spirit be a person, when ***it*** [emphasis added] filled about 120 disciples at the same time? The individual who put that caption is either: ignorant of the Doctrine of the Blessed Trinity, or DISHONEST. Take your pick. When applied to the Trinity, the word "Person" (Note: uppercase "P") is vastly different from when its (lowercase “p”, for a start) applied to any of us.*** And your leaders know it!***
Please, dont try to tell me otherwise. Youve been lied to!

Try reading the original Greek and Latin translation of the N.T.<< take note of the comma Johaneum or should I say the omission of it.<< (theinquisitive)

To throw down the gauntlet:
i challenge you to click on this link, and read some of it: eg scroll down to “The Blessed Trinity”:
thesumma.info/reality/index.php

Is this a private feud or can anyone join in??

christianitytoday.com/ct/2008/octoberweb-only/143-11.0.html?start=1

The doctrine of biblical inerrancy doesn’t belong only to those who cry:
“Sola Scriptura!”<<
“Reading between the lines, this is an effort to call the Roman Catholic Church back to the scriptural sources,” said Timothy George, founding dean of Beeson Divinity School. “We should read this discussion in light of Pope Benedict XVI’s book Jesus of Nazareth. He comes down as a conservative on issues of critical scholarship, though he is not likely a Chicago Statement inerrantist.”
Catholic Church Errors :-
The Earth is flat, the Sun moves around the Earth.
==Galileo “And yet it moves” = “Eppur si muove”==
The Borgia Pope. /Alexander VI The burning of witches, the Inquisition… The very many “splinters of the Cross”
newadvent.org/cathen/08426b
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Bad_Popes
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_sexually_active_popes

 

[theinquisitive]

Part two;-

So, Jehova’s Witnesses are not infallible,but then what about the above?

Who is without sin?
At the very least one must admire the J.W’s they seem to know a h+ll lot more about the Bible (Scripture) than their catholic/protestant counterparts.
Another thing, they are not adverse to going out to proclaim their Faith,even enduring abuse while doing so.
Catholics/Protestants are more at home on the PC, in blogs,and other such forums,there, they are very forthcoming with their “name-calling”.
Pity we can not agree to not agree in a “christian” manner.
And before you ask : NO I am not a J.W.

 

[Nicea325]

Your comment was about our alleged lack of formal training, as priests have in seminary, I suppose. My reply was apposite; yours is not, after “Yeah”.
This man also lacked the training that the mainstream religion of his day offered, but when “[He] finished this discourse [he] left the crowds spellbound at his teaching. The reason was that he taught with authority and not like their scribes.” Mt 7:28,29
1 Pet 3:15

I beg your pardon? The priest have poor training? How do you know? Where you a priest? Do you teach at a seminary? Based on what? Hear-say? More JW’s LIES since your sect is known to spread regularly. Biased JW beliefs do not do well to convince others who are educated. Yes and I’ll say it again,many of the JW door-to-door agents who come knocking on my door have very little formal education,especially in matters of the Bible and it is background and church history. Now if that is a soruce of tension for you,whether you care to admit it or not,makes no difference to me.

 

[Fink]

Is this a private feud or can anyone join in??

No, it`s not a private feud. Jump in!

Even Augustinus is strangely silent on this matter. So best not to go down that road,as the C.Church it’s self is divided on that one.

???
Are you trying to say that the Church is divided on the doctrine of the Trinity, or the Divinity of Christ?
The Blessed Trinity is DOGMA.
Our Lord`s Divinity is DOGMA.

One thing is at least indisputable, the “ordinary” Jehova’s Witness knows his/her bible better than most, who call themselves Catholic, or Protestant for that matter.
And for the most part defend their beliefs with vigor.

That`s tragically true; but being able to rattle off Scripture verses is no guarantee of being right.

“Reading between the lines, this is an effort to call the Roman Catholic Church back to the scriptural sources,”

The Church has always been conscious of the Scriptural sources; but, unlike “Sola Scriptura” Protestants, she knows there`s more than that.
There are three pillars:
Sacred Scripture
Sacred Tradition (uppercase T)
The Magisterium - the teaching authority of the Church.

Catholic Church Errors :-
The Earth is flat, the Sun moves around the Earth.
==Galileo “And yet it moves” = “Eppur si muove”==
The Borgia Pope. /Alexander VI The burning of witches, the Inquisition… The very many “splinters of the Cross”
newadvent.org/cathen/08426b
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Bad_Popes
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_sexually_active_popes

So, Jehova’s Witnesses are not infallible,but then what about the above?

Youre confusing the Churchs Holy Spirit-guided infallibility regarding Faith and Morals with changeable practices and the personal sinfullness of members.

The Church did NOT teach that the earth is flat: that`s an old anti-Catholic chestnut.

Alexander VI: a very sinful pope. We all know that; and all that proves is that the Church is full of sinners (all of us). It has nothing to do with infallibility, papal or otherwise. You`re confusing INFALLIBILITY with IMPECCABILITY.
If anything, the reality of bad popes only indicates that the Church must be protected by the Holy Spirit. Otherwise, she could not have survived for almost 2,000 years, in spite of such sinful Judas-like figures.
Peter, himself, was a weak man.
The Office of the Papacy is more important than the personal integrity, or otherwise, of the officeholder.

The burning of “witches”: Actually, there was very little of that in Catholic-held areas, mainly because of the Confessional. Of course, one is one too many.

The Inquisition: If you mean the Spanish Inquisition, do you know that Spain was involved in an ongoing war with Islam for more than seven hundred years?!
Spain was invaded in AD711 by the Moors from Northern Africa; and they overran almost all of the Iberian Peninsula (Spain and Portugal). Islamic control wasnt completely removed until 1492. THe Spanish Inquisition was set up in an attempt to weed out traitors from Government positions. A lot of those who were tried chose the Inquisition because it was fairer than the civil courts. As far as the number of deaths goes: again, one unfair death sentence is one too many; but, apparently, the total number of death sentences was in the thousands, NOT tens/hundreds of thousands or even millions/tens of millions as claimed by a lot of the Churchs enemies.

Who is without sin?

As individuals: no one.
As an entity: the Church is the Mystical Body of Christ, with the Holy Spirit as the Soul of the Church. Sinless.
Truth is truth; and error is error. The WBTS teaches an enormous amount of error; and there`s no point in denying it. False charity is false charity.

At the very least one must admire the J.W’s they seem to know a h+ll lot more about the Bible (Scripture) than their catholic/protestant counterparts.
Another thing, they are not adverse to going out to proclaim their Faith,even enduring abuse while doing so.

Very true. Theyre sincere; but theyre also wrong.

Catholics/Protestants are more at home on the PC, in blogs,and other such forums,there, they are very forthcoming with their “name-calling”.
Pity we can not agree to not agree in a “christian” manner.

Have you ever noticed the smug, superior attitude of a lot of the door-to-door JWs? Theyve been trained to take for granted that the rest of us know nothing; and they dont like it when they encounter someone who does.
Also, if you look at JW posts on these forums, there`s often the same superior attitude.

And before you ask : NO I am not a J.W.

That`s a relief; but please be careful with your choice of sources, and your interpretation of terms! :

 

[noprem]

Actually,they use the Comma Johaneum, (1 John 5:7-8.) as do Protestants, to “get round the doctrine of the Trinity”!
Which (the comma)does NOT appear in the first Greek translations.
Even Augustinus is strangely silent on this matter. So best not to go down that road,as the C.Church it’s self is divided on that one.

I’ve mentioned elswhere that the 1 John “trinity” is footnoted only in modern trinitarian bibles; the NAB I have in front of me doesn’t do even that.

One thing is at least indisputable, the “ordinary” Jehova’s Witness knows his/her bible better than most, who call themselves Catholic, or Protestant for that matter.
And for the most part defend their beliefs with vigor.

These are true statements, and for that reason they are disputed by disputers.

 

[noprem]

Fink:
“…your usual snide phrases…”?

The Truth that leads to Everlasting (or Eternal?) Life
You Can Live Forever in Paradise on Earth
Should You Believe in The Trinity?
Reasoning from The Scriptures
Knowledge That Leads to Everlasting LIfe
Various issues of Awake and The Watchtower
That’s an impressive list, for one who was never a Witness. Goodbye.

 

[Fink]

That’s an impressive list, for one who was never a Witness. Goodbye.

Well, it`s true.
Some of the material was given to me by someone whose ex-Catholic son had joined the WBTS.
My late mother actually purchased “You Can LIve Forever…” from a door-to-door member.

So, the proof of the lying is in your own publications. There`s no point in denying it.

The vicious attack one WBTS member made on Mother Teresa of Calcutta (back in 1999) was worse than sickening! He was probably just quoting Hitchens!

When an organisation has to resort to lies to “prove” its point, there has to be something wrong. Again: “Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.”
Why don`t you either acknowledge my accusation. or try to refute it?
Running for cover gives the overwhelming impression that you employ hit-and-run tactics.

 

[Fink]

An extremely late PS; but, hopefully, better late than never…

This is the part I can respond to. The others are either another topic or are couched in your usual snide phrases. That’s annoying and unChristian, so I’ll limit my answers to those of your comments that match the standard set by Peter- your own “first Pope”. (1 Pet 3:15)

You really dont have much to look forward to. Seriously, if living on just a natural Earth is all there is (in your opinion), how long do you think itll take before you get sick of it?
Can`t the WBTS have greater vision/expectation than that?
You are being cheated by your leaders!
And you, personally, have not the slightest interest in breaking out!
You refuse to have anything to do with material which is not issued by the WBTS.

“Right now, it`s …” So your idea of Hell is in flux; I’ll stick with what you’ve put on my screen here and now.

The “Right now” was meant to indicate that right now, hell is only a (spiritual) ** STATE**. It will become a (physical)** PLACE **, as well as a (spiritual) STATE, on Doomsday.

So, you’re a Johnathon Edwards disciple?

Finally got around to looking up Jonathan Edwards…
Um…no. The Church is not Calvinist. Good joke.

He (and you) put dead people there, then, to be punished for their unshriven sins. (Although Edwards wouldn’t have agreed that your church’s priests have shriving power.)

No: dead people put THEMSELVES there.
Regarding your swipe at the Sacrament of Penance, read John 20:22-23, among others.

BTW your use of “spastic” in this context is considered unkind these days; unkind to those with CP and such who have uncontrollable spasms.

Sorry!
In future, ill say "physically impaired" or "physically challenged" or "biologically challenged" or some other ***politically correct ***newspeak term. :D One of my brothers is brain-damaged. Hes “intellectually challenged”?
ill stick with the Queens English. One of my brothers is brain-damaged. Simple!

My problem with that- scriptural, of course- is Paul’s teaching on death in Romans…

Most of the WBTS`s problems with anything are scriptural: twisting of it, along with mistranslating.
Read Galatians 1:6-9:

I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting him who called you to the grace of Christ and turning to a different gospel - not that there is another gospel, but there are some who trouble you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ.*** But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to that which we preached to you, let him be accursed. As we have said before, so now I say again, if any one is preaching to you a gospel contrary to that which you received, let him be accursed.*** Revised Standard version.
Strong words!
They apply to the WBTS, SDAs, Mormons ad infinitum (almost).

“Forever” is a common teaching of the mainstream churches, but not scriptural: “Then death and the nether world ***** were hurled into the pool of fire, which is the second death” Rev 20:14 My wife is Hawaiian and can tell you what happens to any object ‘hurled into Kilauea’. Nothing left to be treated or mistreated in any way.

The “everlasting fire” in Matthew 25:41 is a different sort of fire.
Something else: a soul inflated with self-love would probably prefer to suffer, and to wallow in hatred, rather than to be annihilated.

I know you don’t mean the implied self-contradiction; please restate.

In describing hell, i said that theres **SPIRITUAL** suffering; and that from Doomsday onwards, therell also be PHYSICAL suffering.
In describing Heaven, i said that there`ll be happiness and perfect coordination between soul and body.
Suffering and hatred versus happiness and love.
Countenance challenged ***(ie ugly), ***biologically challenged (ie spastic) bodies versus bodily grace and beauty.
ETC.
In other words, Heaven is/will be ***the exact opposite ***of hell.
Basically: SUFFERING versus BLISS.

You were pulling my leg.

All quotes are from The St. Joseph Edition of The New American Bible, Catholic Book Publishing Co., New York, 1970, nihil obstat S. J. Hardegen, OFM, SSL and C. P. Ceroke, OCarm, STD; imprimatur Patrick Cardinal O’Boyle, DD, [late] Archbishop of Washington.

Is the above quote supposed to be taken as proof that you`re playing fair with us?

This is something which gives us Catholics the horrors!
The WBTS obviously possesses an awful lot of Catholic literature; so your organisation knows what the Church teaches, and why she teaches it. And yet it (WBTS) distorts/mangles the truth; and feeds its members the resulting poison.

A few years back, someone told me that your week night activities include tactics for attacking other religions; and the primary target is Catholicism (Thats pretty obvious, anyway.). Its the tried and proven military tactic: “The best method of defence is attack.”

This question was asked earlier; but it was badly worded, so, better luck this time:
Does the WBTS tell you that the Catholic Church rejects the doctrine of the bodily resurrection of all of us?

 

[theinquisitive]

From Fink:
This is something which gives us Catholics the horrors!
The WBTS obviously possesses an awful lot of Catholic literature; so your organisation knows what the Church teaches, and why she teaches it. And yet it (WBTS) distorts/mangles the truth; and feeds its members the resulting poison.​

The WBTS would beg to differ,in fact they say the same about the Catholics/Protestants<<

                                     ------------------------------------------

A few years back, someone told me that your week night activities include tactics for attacking other religions; and the primary target is Catholicism (Thats pretty obvious, anyway.). Its the tried and proven military tactic: “The best method of defence is attack.”​

Oops! are we forgetting that the C.Church.are “masters” in MILITARY tactics… ?
-----------------------------------------
This question was asked earlier; but it was badly worded, so, better luck this time:
Does the WBTS tell you that the Catholic Church rejects the doctrine of the bodily resurrection of all of us?​

No it does not!!
Actually it promotes that “doctrine”
Only thing is,it does not believe that the “resurrected”, are automatically “lifted up into Heaven”,rather, that they are given the opportunity to live without: Wars,Death,Suffering, Illness,nor sin, forever, right here on a new earth ( > see I will make a new Heaven and a new EARTH<).
Which was God’s IDEA in the first place…
If God wanted a load of Body less “souls” in Heaven why take the trouble of going through the antics of “filling the earth”,just to destroy it, and all on it ??
By the way the WBTS encourages it’s members to read Catholic and other religious works contrary to most other religious faiths,who actually forbid it.
What are we (Catholics/Protestants) afraid of? The truth? I hope not!!!
!!!Please note: I AM NOT A JEHOVAH’S WITNESS !!!

 

[mirandajb]

C T Russell, the founder was a conman. He took out advertisements about being able to grow Miracle Wheat etc…it was a big hoax and exposed in the local dailies. He also lied in court that he could speak Hebrew and Greek and thus qualified to translate the Bible in in original languages. Upon cross examination it was found that he lied. What a hoax and conman. What do you think flows from this man…surely not springs of living waters…

 

[juliamajor]

From Fink:
This is something which gives us Catholics the horrors!
The WBTS obviously possesses an awful lot of Catholic literature; so your organisation knows what the Church teaches, and why she teaches it. And yet it (WBTS) distorts/mangles the truth; and feeds its members the resulting poison.​

The WBTS would beg to differ,in fact they say the same about the Catholics/Protestants<<

---

No it does not!!
Actually it promotes that “doctrine”
Only thing is,it does not believe that the “resurrected”, are automatically “lifted up into Heaven”,rather, that they are given the opportunity to live without: Wars,Death,Suffering, Illness,nor sin, forever, right here on a new earth ( > see I will make a new Heaven and a new EARTH<).
Which was God’s IDEA in the first place…
If God wanted a load of Body less “souls” in Heaven why take the trouble of going through the antics of “filling the earth”,just to destroy it, and all on it ??
By the way the WBTS encourages it’s members to read Catholic and other religious works contrary to most other religious faiths,who actually forbid it.
What are we (Catholics/Protestants) afraid of? The truth? I hope not!!!
!!!Please note: I AM NOT A JEHOVAH’S WITNESS !!!

Oh, heck no. That a load of crud. I’ve been friends over the years ith several JW. They didn’t no squat about any other religion-so if they encourage people to read other religions stuff- thenh they are not understanding them.(if you offer them Catholic material they run like the plague was there.
What in the world are you talking about “forbidding” Catholics to read about other religions? i’VE BEEN DOING IT FOR YEARS! If you can name it , I’ve probably at least touched upon it. Every JW I’ve ever known was totally ignorant of anything other than themselves. Their misuse and misunderstanding of anyone else’s doctrine is amazing. They are not supposed to mingle with 'outsiders" nor indulge themselves with any information outside that which is given by the Watchtower org. At one time they were discouraging higher education for it’s member.
You protest too much , me thinks-to paraphrase Shakespeare. You MAY not be a JW but you are certainly enamored of their doctrine. 7th day Adventist? The JW’s came out from them- lots of similar out looks. If are Catholic(which I doubt seriously) you are a very badly catechized one.

 

[Fink]

The WBTS would beg to differ

Of course the WBTS would beg to differ! Lying is part and parcel of its operations.

in fact they say the same about the Catholics/Protestants<<

i don`t doubt it: especially about the Catholic Church.
You worded that phrase cleverly: “in fact they say…”
By wording it that way, you, yourself, avoid lying.
The sentence: “Lying is part and parcel…” is applicable here, too.

Oops! are we forgetting that the C.Church.are “masters” in MILITARY tactics… ?

Theres a big difference: the Church doesnt **LIE **about her opponents/enemies.
Right now, The Church Militant doesnt seem so militant. :shrug: Thats due to internal attacks by her enemies. Neo-Judases!

No it does not!!

Actually it promotes that “doctrine”

Got a feeling you misread that question.
The question wasn`t: “Does the WBTS reject the doctrine of the resurrection…?” i know that it promotes that doctrine if for no other reason than that all of its literature features happy, smiling people picking fruit and stroking lions and tigers under the chin, with a log cabin and snow-capped peaks in the background.

The question was: Does the WBTS tell its members that*** the Catholic Church rejects the doctrine of the bodily resurrection of all of us?***
Encounters with door-to-door JWs have made me suspect thats what the WBTS claims. Does it claim we believe in so-called spirit bodies? id lay money on it.

Only thing is,it does not believe that the “resurrected”, are automatically "lifted up…

Why`s the word “resurrected” in inverted commas? As above: does the WBTS claim we Catholics believe in so-called spirit bodies?

…forever…on a new earth ( > see I will make a new Heaven and a new EARTH<)

You believe every word of it.
You`re not interested in the Beatific Vision.
And you call yourself a Catholic.

Which was God’s IDEA in the first place…
If God wanted a load of Body less “souls” in Heaven…

,…to destroy it, and all on it ??

Who teaches that? The Catholic Church certainly doesnt. Another misconception thrown at us by the WBTS. id lay money on that one, as well.

By the way the WBTS encourages it’s members to read Catholic and other religious works

“Catholic and other religious works”: carefully selected, no doubt, by the WBTS; and in the case of Catholic literature, not necessarily orthodox. Again: id lay money on it. In other words, heterodox literature published by, say, Fr H Kung, Fr R McBrien, or even Fr Matthew Fox before he formally walked out of the Church, along with the radical feminist rantings of the likes of Sr Joan Chittister ( :eek: ), could be used to supposedly show the idiocy of the Churchs teachings. Throw in some orthodox stuff to show that there are contradictions, as well.
Add to that, a guided WBTS commentary complete with straw man arguments.
NO! i dont trust them! And its their own doing! The same goes for the SDAs etc.

contrary to most other religious faiths,who actually forbid it.

Because it`s** HERETICAL **and, therefore, DANGEROUS. Only non-WBTS folks who have a reasonable grounding in their own Faith should read it.

What are we (Catholics/Protestants) afraid of? The truth? I hope not!!!

i cant speak for the Protestants. The Catholic Church is not afraid of the **TRUTH**. Why would she be? The Catholic Church is afraid of **LIES! **Lies told about her by her opponents/enemies! Plus sawn-off, hopelessly false doctrine. This stuffs deadly when it falls into the hands of a Catholic who knows virtually nothing about the Faith. The seemingly deep “Bible knowledge” of the door-to-door JWs also impresses a lot of gullible people.

After reading enough WBTS literature, it`s blatantly obvious that the WBTS **DOES **slanderously LIE about the Church. Actually, most of its venom is reserved for us.

!!!Please note: I AM NOT A JEHOVAH’S WITNESS !!!

No?
“Pull the other Leg!”:
one reason being that you appear to know very little, if anything, about the Church, in spite of the word “Catholic” after the word “Religion”.
For a non-member (so you say) of the WBTS, you know an awful lot about its beliefs; and youre familiar with its "rebuttals"; and youre quite happy to use them against us.

Noprems religion is: "bible student", echoing the earlier JW name of the "International Bible Students Association". You know that anyway; but why would he do that? No big deal, of course. Just wondering.
He came out with a curious statement in response to my list of WBTS literature:
"Thats an impressive list for one who was never a Witness.*** Goodbye."*** Whats that supposed to mean…? That after reading all of that literature, i should have become a JW. Because that didnt happen, im a lost cause; so he moved on?

If you really are a Catholic, you`ll want to know more about the Blessed Trinity:
thesumma.info/reality/index.php

katapi.org.uk/TandS/Ch7.html

The revised, 1978 edition of Theology and Sanity is available from Ignatius Press.
On the back cover are the words:

Of Sheed`s many books, this is my favourite, not just because it includes the clearest explanation of the Trinity ever put on paper, but because it proves that only the Catholic view of reality can satisfy our mental hunger. - Karl Keating

You`re just playing, arent you… and laughing your head off!

 

[noprem]

I beg your pardon? The priest have poor training? How do you know?

My comment meant “formal training, as priests [do] have in seminary” Sorry for the misunderstanding. That said:
It used to be one could count on Jesuits, at least, having some accurate knowledge of scrupture; I don’t see that much anymore. You’re free to disagree.

More JW’s LIES since your sect is known to spread regularly.
Biased JW beliefs do not do well to convince others who are educated.
Yes and I’ll say it again,many of the JW door-to-door agents who come knocking on my door have very little formal education,especially in matters of the Bible and it is background and church history

I notice that sentences 1 and 2 clearly indicate your own unbiased approach to your belief system as outlined in sentence 3. IRONY ALERT! IRONY ALERT!

So, you really don’t want any part of the promised earthly paradise under God’s kingdom? (Ps 37:29) Too bad. Not much more for me to say, per my leader: “And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.”

 

[T_More]

My comment meant “formal training, as priests [do] have in seminary” Sorry for the misunderstanding. That said:
It used to be one could count on Jesuits, at least, having some accurate knowledge of scrupture; I don’t see that much anymore. You’re free to disagree.

I notice that sentences 1 and 2 clearly indicate your own unbiased approach to your belief system as outlined in sentence 3. IRONY ALERT! IRONY ALERT!

So, you really don’t want any part of the promised earthly paradise under God’s kingdom? (Ps 37:29) Too bad. Not much more for me to say, per my leader: “And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.”

Noprem, your teachers interpretation of Psalms 37 is unsound. From this very website:

The JWs attempt to use verses such as Psalms 37:29 as evidence that the just are to inherit the land forever, which is earth. In context, this refers to inheriting the promised land as a sign of God’s blessing in the Old Testament. But, Hebrews 11:8-16 indicates that there is a homeland better than the promised land on earth, and this is the heavenly one for those who die in faith. The Old Testament patriarchs “publicly declared that they were strangers and temporary residents in the land . . . they are earnestly seeking a place of their own. . . . But now they are reaching out for a better [place], that is, one belonging to heaven. . . . God . . . has made a city ready for them. . . .These [OT men and women] did not get the [fulfillment of the] promise . . . as God foresaw something better for us” (Heb. 11:13-16,39-40). Even the footnote of the NWT makes clear that the “city” spoken of in these verses is the heavenly Jerusalem mentioned in Hebrews 12:22 and Revelation 21:2. But, the Watchtower still maintains that no one that lived before Christ will ever enter heaven. “The apostle Paul in the eleventh chapter of Hebrews names a long list of faithful men who died before the crucifixion of the Lord. . . . These can never be a part of the heavenly class” (Millions Now Living, p. 89). Only the 144,000 elite that all lived after the death of Christ will supposedly go to heaven. Matthew 8:11-12 provides severe difficulties for this idea, since Jesus proclaims, “many from eastern parts and western parts will come and recline at the table with Abraham and Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of the heavens; whereas the sons of the kingdom will be thrown into the darkness outside. There is where [their] weeping and the gnashing of [their] teeth will be.” No verse could be clearer in declaring that the patriarchs are in heaven. The following verses all demonstrate that Christians go to heaven, and do not remain on earth: 2 Corinthians 5:1; Hebrews 3:1; Ephesians 2:6; Colossians 1:4-5; 1 Peter 1:4.

 

[Fink]

I notice that sentences 1 and 2 clearly indicate your own unbiased approach to your belief system as outlined in sentence 3. IRONY ALERT! IRONY ALERT!

Can you prove that the Catholic Church lies about the WBTS? We want PROOF, not your irony alert claim!

Any decently catechised Catholic who reads “You Can Live Forever in Paradise on Earth” cant help but see that the WBTS lies about** US**, or, at least, twists the Churchs teachings.
An example has already been given: page 41 and Pentecost/the Holy Spirit. Incidentally, why would Jesus say to baptise in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit if Hes not inferring the Trinity?. Using your understanding, our Lord actually said: ......baptising in the name of Jehovah God, and of twice-reconstituted Michael the Archangel and of Jehovah Gods active force.

It doesn`t make sense.

Acts 5:3 says:
Then Peter said, “Ananias, how is it that Satan has so filled your heart that you have lied to the Holy Spirit…”

Acts 15:28 says:
“For it seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us not to burden…”

Hes infinitely more than Jehovahs active force.
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
Back to the book.
Other slanderous inferences are on:
Page 29
An illustration of at least a bishop (looks like the short-lived Pope John Paul I) “blessing the troops”?

Page 45
An illustration of an elderly lady praying in front of a crucifix. The inference, of course, is that she`s worshipping an idol.

Page 50
An illustration of a person being burnt “at the stake”. The caption says:

Some religious leaders fought to keep the Bible from the common people, even burning at the stake those who possessed it.
The only place where Bible reading in the vernacular was forbidden was in Southern France during the Albigensian outbreak in the 12th Century, and into the 13th Century.

Page 51
A quote:
For some time, the Catholic religious leaders fought to keep the Bible from being put into the language of the common people. They even burned at the stake persons possessing the Bible. They did this because the Bible exposed their false teachings and bad practices.
Strong words!
Pity it`s a lie!

A couple of points:
Most people couldnt read "in those days"; and the printing press wasnt invented until the mid 1400s. Both points are often conveniently forgotten.

Those pages`ll do for a start.

Challenge:
If what ive said is a lie, please refute it! Along with two earlier posts to which you havent responded. Plus my respons to ***theinquisitive ***who claims to be a Catholic.

So, you really don’t want any part of the promised earthly paradise under God’s kingdom? (Ps 37:29) Too bad. Not much more for me to say, per my leader: “And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.”

By way of the Catholic Church, God has promised much more than just an earthly paradise. Theres*** also the Beatific Vision.*** To echo your own words: ***So, you really dont want any part of the promised Beatific Vision?***

The Apostles Creed says: “…the resurrection of the body, and life everlasting. Amen”
The Nicene Creed says: “We look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen”
i asked this question before, and got no answer: Does the WBTS teach you that the Catholic Church denies the resurrection of the dead? Yes or no?
She denies spirit bodies because they don`t exist.

On Pages 36 and 37 of “You Can Live Forever…”:

…the great Person, almighty God. Although he does not have a material body, he has a spiritual one. A spirit person has a body? Yes, the Bible says: “If there is a physical body, there is also a spiritual one,” - 1 Corinthians 15:44; John 4:24. [both taken out of context]
Since God is a person with a spiritual body. he must have a place to live. The Bible tells us that the heavens are Gods "established ***place*** [emphasis in the book: not added] of dwelling." (1 Kings 8:43) ..... Some humans will be rewarded with life in heaven with God, at which time they will receive spirit bodies. They will then see God, the Bible says, and also be like him. (1 John 3:2) ***This, too, shows that God is a person, and that he has a body. *** [emphasis added] Um. No! In reality, God is pure Spirit, and doesnt occupy Space. Hes everywhere only in the sense that His will sustains everything in existence. Hes outside of Space and Time.

 

[Nicea325]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nicea325
I beg your pardon? The priest have poor training? How do you know?

My comment meant “formal training, as priests [do] have in seminary” Sorry for the misunderstanding. That said:
It used to be one could count on Jesuits, at least, having some accurate knowledge of scrupture; I don’t see that much anymore. You’re free to disagree.

Agian,you gave a mere opinion and nothing substantial to support your claim. I disagree with your opinion,because you provide nothing to support your claim.

Quote:
More JW’s LIES since your sect is known to spread regularly.
Biased JW beliefs do not do well to convince others who are educated.
Yes and I’ll say it again,many of the JW door-to-door agents who come knocking on my door have very little formal education,especially in matters of the Bible and it is background and church history

I notice that sentences 1 and 2 clearly indicate your own unbiased approach to your belief system as outlined in sentence 3. IRONY ALERT! IRONY ALERT!

Irony alert? Really? On the contrary, the IRONY ALERT is turned on JW’s. JW’s truly believe only they know the Bible,so I challenge them on it. Is that why when the JW’s come knocking at my door and I mention the Canon of Scripture and WHO compiled it they either:

1. Walk away since they have no formal education on the topic
2. Make all sorts of excuses how it is not important
3. Or simply say their time is up

So, you really don’t want any part of the promised earthly paradise under God’s kingdom? (Ps 37:29) Too bad. Not much more for me to say, per my leader: “And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.”

Sorry,but I do not accept your JW interpretation of scripture.

 

[theinquisitive]

---

No it does not!!
Actually it promotes that “doctrine”
Only thing is,it does not believe that the “resurrected”, are automatically “lifted up into Heaven”,rather, that they are given the opportunity to live without: Wars,Death,Suffering, Illness,nor sin, forever, right here on a new earth ( > see I will make a new Heaven and a new EARTH<).
Which was God’s IDEA in the first place…
If God wanted a load of Body less “souls” in Heaven why take the trouble of going through the antics of “filling the earth”,just to destroy it, and all on it ??
By the way the WBTS encourages it’s members to read Catholic and other religious works contrary to most other religious faiths,who actually forbid it.
What are we (Catholics/Protestants) afraid of? The truth? I hope not!!!
!!!Please note: I AM NOT A JEHOVAH’S WITNESS !!!

Quote;- “Oh, heck no. That a load of crud. I’ve been friends over the years ith several JW. They didn’t no squat about any other religion-so if they encourage people to read other religions stuff- thenh they are not understanding them.(if you offer them Catholic material they run like the plague was there.
What in the world are you talking about “forbidding” Catholics to read about other religions? i’VE BEEN DOING IT FOR YEARS! If you can name it , I’ve probably at least touched upon it. Every JW I’ve ever known was totally ignorant of anything other than themselves. Their misuse and misunderstanding of anyone else’s doctrine is amazing. They are not supposed to mingle with 'outsiders” nor indulge themselves with any information outside that which is given by the Watchtower org. At one time they were discouraging higher education for it’s member.
You protest too much , me thinks-to paraphrase Shakespeare. You MAY not be a JW but you are certainly enamored of their doctrine. 7th day Adventist? The JW’s came out from them- lots of similar out looks. If are Catholic(which I doubt seriously) you are a very badly catechized one.

Ok well every one is entitled to their own opinion,you certainly have yours

Your “protests” are a little too “uncouth” for my liking.
Try a more; educated /less Quote : " totally ignorant" end Quote, approach.

1. What in the world are you talking about “forbidding” Catholics to read about other religions<<
   If you read my post you will find that I do not write “forbidding Catholics…”
   I wrote: ( other religious faiths,who actually forbid it.)

2)>> “If you can name it , I’ve probably at least touched upon it”<<

Yep! that’s the problem “touched upon it”!!
And a little “presumptuous” don’t you think??
How about I name;
Ludwig Josef Johann Wittgenstein’s Tractatus Logico-Philosophicus
or,
A TREATISE ON GOD AS FIRST PRINCIPLE by John Duns Scotus?

3)Quote; > You MAY not be a JW < > If are Catholic(which I doubt seriously)<end Quote
Are you calling me a liar?
Very Christian I must say… but then,you seem to use such terms “lightly” .

I’ve got to admit I find it quite amazing that you have (Quote) > “I’ve been friends over the years ith several JW.”< ,especially as you go on to write;

" Every JW I’ve ever known was totally ignorant of anything other than themselves."<<
They must have been very good nature’d to endure such language as you use here,or did you “hide” your real feelings from them?

Any way, nichts für ungut…
Have a nice day while insulting more of your friends.

.