Jehovah's witnesses still dont have an accurate translation?

[Kitty_Chan]

Do you agree with the Apostle Paul?

In the first century, the apostle Paul warned about getting involved in exhausting, time-consuming subjects, such as "genealogies, which end up in nothing,.

Hi just trying to follow the thread here, and was wondering about this part. what do they mean genealogies are not useful or what?

Kinda wondering because there is considerable who begat who in the bible and seems it is important. Mainly showing the lineage of Jesus etc.

So what is this quoted part getting at?

 

[BibleSteve]

Hi just trying to follow the thread here, and was wondering about this part. what do they mean genealogies are not useful or what?

Kinda wondering because there is considerable who begat who in the bible and seems it is important. Mainly showing the lineage of Jesus etc.

So what is this quoted part getting at?

Hi Kitty,

Very good question. Paul was making a point that some discussions, although very detailed, are utterly pointless from the perspective of what is really important.

For example, the apostle Paul, told Timothy not to pay attention to “false stories and to genealogies, which end up in nothing, but which furnish questions for research rather than a dispensing of anything by God in connection with faith.” (1Ti 1:4) This warning is more appreciated when we know of the extremes to which the Jews later went in researching genealogies and how minutely they investigated any possible discrepancy.

To engage in studying and discussing such matters was pointless, and it was even more so at the time Paul wrote to Timothy. It was no longer vital to have the genealogical records maintained to prove one’s ancestry, since God did not now recognize any distinction between Jew and Gentile in the Christian congregation. (Ga 3:28) And the genealogical records had already established the descent of Christ through the line of David. Also, it would not be long after Paul wrote this admonition that Jerusalem would be destroyed, and along with it the Jewish records. God did not preserve them. Accordingly, **Paul was anxious that Timothy and the congregations should not be sidetracked into spending time in research and in controversy over matters of personal pedigree, which contributed nothing to Christian faith. **The genealogy furnished by the Bible is sufficient to prove Christ’s Messiahship, the genealogical matter of prime importance to Christians. The other Biblical genealogies stand as a testimony to the authenticity of the Scriptural record, manifesting clearly that it is a genuinely historical account.

 

[TraditionalCath]

JW’s view the NWT as the most accurate translation available.

It should also be noted that the author is not one of Jehovah’s Witnesses and yet he fully recognizes the accuracy of the NWT.

it is not accurate by any means. the governing body changed John 1:1 and added the name “Jehovah” over 237 times in their new testament in their NWT. what does the Holy Bible state about ANYONE changing the scriptures, be it adding or taking away? i’ll gladly let you know.

Rev. 22:19

the NWT is not an accurate Bible. it substitutes the word cross for “torture stake” ( another taking away of something in the Bible)
and it is not truthful by far. by taking away from John 1:1 the governing body is guilty of lying about Christ’s divinity. so no, its not an accurate bible by far. it misleads people and lies about Christ and His divinity and adds the name “Jehovah” over 700 times. this is added all by a governing body who had predicted the end of the “system of things” many times and failed. ( see Jason Evert’s book “Answering Jehovah’s Witnesses” for more details regarding the false prophecies regarding the end of the world)
so no, don’t put your trust in a bible that has been altered to suit the witnesses beliefs. its not even a real bible. if it was, it would NOT be altered in any way, shape, or form. but it is. so it is not accurate at all.

David Reed, an ex-Witness, says in his book, Jehovah’s Witnesses Answered Verse by Verse that basically the New World Translation came into being for the sole purpose of supporting Watchtower doctrines showing their own bias (pp.17-18). Reed says, “So, during the 1950’s, Watchtower leaders went beyond interpretation by producing their own version of the Bible, with hundreds of verses changed to fit Watchtower doctrine. And, their New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures continues to be rewritten every few years, with additional changse made to bring God’s Word into closer agreement with what the organization teaches.”

watchman.org/jw/nwt.htm

The New World Translation systematically sets out to eliminate evidence for the deity of Christ .watchman.org/jw/nwt.htm

 

[TraditionalCath]

What leading Greek scholars say about the NWT:

1. Dr. Bruce M.
2. Metzger, professor of New Testament at Princeton University, calls the NWT “a frightful mistranslation,” “Erroneous” and “pernicious” “reprehensible” “If the Jehovah’s Witnesses take this translation seriously, they are polytheists.” (Professor of New Testament Language and Literature) Dr. William
3. Barclay, a leading Greek scholar, said “it is abundantly clear that a sect which can translate the New Testament like that is intellectually dishonest.” British scholar H.H. Rowley stated, "From beginning to end this volume is a shining example of how the Bible
4. should not be translated." "Well, as a backdrop, I was disturbed because they (Watchtower) had
5. misquoted me in support of their translation." (These words were excerpted from the tape, “Martin and Julius Mantey on The New World Translation”, Mantey is quoted on pages 1158-1159 of the Kingdom interlinear Translation) Dr. Julius
6. Mantey , author of A Manual Grammar of the Greek New Testament, calls the NWT “a shocking mistranslation.” “Obsolete and incorrect.” “It is neither scholarly nor reasonable to translate John 1:1 ‘The Word was a god.’” "I have never read any New Testament
7. so badly translated as The Kingdom Interlinear Translation of The Greek Scriptures… it is a distortion of the New Testament. The translators used what J.B. Rotherham had translated in 1893, in modern speech, and changed the readings in scores of passages to state what Jehovah’s Witnesses believe
   and teach. That is a distortion not a translation." (Julius Mantey , Depth Exploration in The New Testament (N.Y.: Vantage Pres, 1980), pp.136-137) the
   translators of the NWT are “diabolical deceivers.” (Jul
   ius Mantey in discussion with Walter Martin)

bible.ca/Jw-NWT.htm

on this same site, scroll down until you see this headline:

E. Examples of mistranslation within NWT in order to teach their that Jesus was created:

then you will see how many scriptures they altered to suit their belief. it is appalling!

see at the same site, their failed prophecies:

bible.ca/Jw-Prophecy.htm

 

[Daniel_Marsh]

Unlike most of the scholars used by Jehovah’s Witnesses, DeBuhn has not been quoted out of context. He does, indeed, believe the NWT and KIT to be generally accurate, and uses the latter when teaching Greek at Northern Arizona University.
BeDuhn received his Master of Arts in Theological Studies from Harvard Divinity School. This degree requires an intermediate level of competence in Greek. BeDuhn’s PhD from the University of Indiana is in Comparative Religious Studies, not in Biblical languages. He is not recognized in the scholarly community as an expert in Biblical Greek.

This is not to say that BeDuhn is to be dismissed lightly. He is certainly knowledgeable in Greek, and says that he is doing work on untranslated Greek texts. He says that he is “not a theologian,” by which he means, I suppose, that he is not biased in favor of one theological viewpoint, but rather approaches the text purely from a grammatical standpoint. However, it is questionable whether one approaching the text from a professed “non-theological” standpoint is any less free from bias than one professing a theological commitment; nor that a theological commitment necessarily precludes an objective analysis. Further, Dr. BeDuhn as a “non-theologian” may limit his familiarity with much relevant scholarship (see, for example, Dr. BeDuhn’s statement that he is unaware of who Murray J. Harris is, below).

BeDuhn argues that the traditional translation is extremely “unlikely” from a grammatical standpoint. To my knowledge, however, Dr. DeBuhn has not interacted publicly with the majority of scholarship on this topic (a summary of which you may find here) which his views contradict. This includes his recent book, Truth in Translation… Further, his statement that the traditional rendering “narrows the meaning from a quality or category (god/divine) to an individual (God)” seems a strawman argument: Those who argue that theos has a qualitative force in John 1:1c do not argue that Jesus is the individual, God, but rather that he possesses all the qualities or attributes of God. Trinitarians could even accept Dr. BeDuhn’s substitution of “categorical” for Harner’s “qualitative,” so long was we understand that for John, the category that includes the true God is a category containing only one Being (see Harris, Jesus as God, p. 298, n93).

BeDuhn attempted to defend the NWT to Catholic apologist John Pacheco. You’ll find their discussion of John 1:1 here. You will notice that a necessary presupposition of BeDuhn’s argument is that John’s beliefs about God were not consistent with those professed in Deuteronomy. John is not “concerned” with the radical monotheistic commitment of Deuteronomy, BeDuhn suggests. He tells us that Paul does not “control” what John meant and vice versa. However, those who hold to the harmony of Scripture - as do Jehovah’s Witnesses - do not accept this necessary presupposition. Therefore both Trinitarians and Witnesses should reject his conclusions, for they are based on presuppositions with which we cannot agree.

**Finally, BeDuhn prefers the translation “and the Word was divine.” **Dr. BeDuhn has stated in a private email that this rendering “leaves open” a Trinitarian solution (BeDuhn to Steven S. 12/26/2001). In this same email, he states that he does not know who Murray J. Harris is. It would seem that any cogent defense of Dr. BeDuhn’s views would require interaction with Harris’ thorough survey and analysis in his book, Jesus as God (see particularly Harris’ comments regarding “the Word was divine,” p. 63ff).

BeDuhn sees “divine” as merely meaning a non-physical being, which may be the true God or lesser spirit beings, such as angels. We may ask, however, if John’s intended meaning was “divine” simply in the sense of a non-physical being, why he did not use the Greek word theios (“divine”), which would have expressed this sense in unambiguous terms?

You may find a lengthy dialog between Dr. BeDuhn and me here.

forananswer.org/Top_JW/Scholars%20and%20NWT.htm#BeDuhn

Robert Hommel and Jason BeDuhn
On John 1:1 and the New World Translation

forananswer.org/Mars_Jw/JB-RH.Jn1_1.Index.htm

 

[TraditionalCath]

further proof in their own words that witnesses are not allowed to have independent thinking:

983 “Avoid independent thinking…questioning the counsel that is provided by God’s visible organization.” (Watchtower, Jan. 15, 1983 pg. 22)
1983 “Fight against independent thinking.” (Watchtower, Jan. 15, 1983 pg. 27

bible.ca/Jw-internet.htm#think

"Commenting on whether there is a need for our brothers to creates such Web sites, “Our Kingdom Ministry” November 1997, page 3, stated: “There is no need for any individual to prepare Internet pages about Jehovah’s Witnesses, our activities, or our belief”
bible.ca/Jw-internet.htm#think

what are they afraid of? that some witnesses might discover the truth about them? take a look:

Why the Governing Body of Jehovah’s Witnesses FEARS the Internet! bible.ca/Jw-internet.htm#control

 

[b_justb]

BibleSteve:

Jason Debuhn also agrees [with JW biblical scholarship]:

In his book “ TRUTH IN TRANSLATION: ACCURACY AND BIAS IN ENGLISH TRANSLATIONS OF THE NEW TESTAMENT" Author: Jason David BeDuhn he compares varoius Bible translations for their accuracy.

Hi Steve, long time no see.

Since you are using Jason DeBuhn to support your point of argument based upon proof by authority, we must be assured of Mr. Debuhn’s authority to make the claims he makes for us to be convinced, correct? Let’s take a look at Mr. DeBuhn shall we?

BeDuhn received his Master of Arts in Theological Studies from Harvard Divinity School. This degree requires an intermediate level of competence in Greek. BeDuhn’s PhD from the University of Indiana is in Comparative Religious Studies, not in Biblical languages. He is not recognized in the scholarly community as an expert in Biblical Greek. |source|

BeDuhn attempted to defend the NWT to Catholic apologist John Pacheco. You’ll find their discussion of John 1:1 here.

BeDuhn’s argument is that John’s beliefs about God were not consistent with those professed in Deuteronomy. John is not “concerned” with the radical monotheistic commitment of Deuteronomy, BeDuhn suggests. He tells us that Paul does not “control” what John meant and vice versa. However, those who hold to the harmony of Scripture - as do Jehovah’s Witnesses - do not accept this necessary presupposition. Therefore both Trinitarians and Witnesses should reject his conclusions, for they are based on presuppositions with which we cannot agree. | This is the conclusion of Topic Studies Researchers. |

 

[Hellisreal]

Looks like its up in the air about how accurate the NWT really is.

But, I wonder who is checking for accuracy of the biblical hebrew and greek.

Likely someone who has no qualifications unless…

Are the annointed doing this? Hmmm. One does not know.

The writers in the watchtower are NEVER named either.

Such secrecy.

 

[yessisan]

further proof in their own words that witnesses are not allowed to have independent thinking:

983 “Avoid independent thinking…questioning the counsel that is provided by God’s visible organization.” (Watchtower, Jan. 15, 1983 pg. 22)
1983 “Fight against independent thinking.” (Watchtower, Jan. 15, 1983 pg. 27

bible.ca/Jw-internet.htm#think

"Commenting on whether there is a need for our brothers to creates such Web sites, “Our Kingdom Ministry” November 1997, page 3, stated: “There is no need for any individual to prepare Internet pages about Jehovah’s Witnesses, our activities, or our belief”
bible.ca/Jw-internet.htm#think

what are they afraid of? that some witnesses might discover the truth about them? take a look:

Why the Governing Body of Jehovah’s Witnesses FEARS the Internet! bible.ca/Jw-internet.htm#control

Are you serious? I knew they are totally against individuality but I never knew they had it in writing!

About the fear of the internet, yes it’s true. Almost in every meeting I went for over a year, the elders warned the members about the evils of the internet… of course they’re afraid of it, it contains access to the Truth!

 

[Kitty_Chan]

Hi Kitty,

Accordingly, **Paul was anxious that Timothy and the congregations should not be sidetracked into spending time in research and in controversy over matters of personal pedigree, which contributed nothing to Christian faith. **The genealogy furnished by the Bible is sufficient to prove Christ’s Messiahship, the genealogical matter of prime importance to Christians. The other Biblical genealogies stand as a testimony to the authenticity of the Scriptural record, manifesting clearly that it is a genuinely historical account.

Well, makes sense not to worry about pedigree, if we are all supposed to be sons and daughters. But Im curious, I thought JW’s didnt believe that Jesus is the Son of God?

 

[BibleSteve]

But Im curious, I thought JW’s didnt believe that Jesus is the Son of God?

Hi Kitty,

Yes, Jeovah’s Witnesses absolutely believe Jesus is the Son of God. Our salvation depends on faith in the value of his ransom sacrifice.

We just had a series of international conventions entitled: “Follow The Christ”.

There is so much disinformation out there about JW’s…

Perhaps you will enjoy reading this:

watchtower.org/e/20011115/article_01.htm

Steve

 

[Ravyn_Guiliani]

I am wondering if what the Org does not want people to find is like how I used the Greek Interlinear for Rev. 7:9 and 11 and found out the exact same greek word is used for where the ‘great crowd’ is (according to JWs–on earth) and the angels are—in HEAVEN???

 

[Ravyn_Guiliani]

Hi Kitty,

Yes, Jeovah’s Witnesses absolutely believe Jesus is the Son of God. Our salvation depends on faith in the value of his ransom sacrifice.

We just had a series of international conventions entitled: “Follow The Christ”.

There is so much disinformation out there about JW’s…

Perhaps you will enjoy reading this:

watchtower.org/e/20011115/article_01.htm

Steve

JWs believe Jesus is the firstborn of creation–hence son OF God. NOT God, the Son.

 

[Hellisreal]

Well, makes sense not to worry about pedigree, if we are all supposed to be sons and daughters. But Im curious, I thought JW’s didnt believe that Jesus is the Son of God?

They do not believe that Jesus Christ is God.

They think he is the archangel Michael.

Not God.

Not the I AM.

They have an Almighty Father and a god micheal.

They have a big God and a little god and an impersonal force.

 

[Hellisreal]

JWs believe Jesus is the firstborn of creation–hence son OF God. NOT God, the Son.

Glad to see you here sister.

 

[hosemonkey]

Hi Kitty,

Yes, Jeovah’s Witnesses absolutely believe Jesus is the Son of God. Our salvation depends on faith in the value of his ransom sacrifice.

We just had a series of international conventions entitled: “Follow The Christ”.

There is so much disinformation out there about JW’s…

Perhaps you will enjoy reading this:

watchtower.org/e/20011115/article_01.htm

Steve

Steve,
I see that you are back at the same old stand, trying to prove the unprovable. Let’s see… you have a false prophet, a gimmicked bible, mormon theology, pagan practices, paranoid leadership and closed minds. Oh yes, your people are a nuisance, knocking on stranger’s doors. Did I miss anything? When are you JWs going to realize that Catholics on this forum are not going to believe your lies about the Watchtower society?

 

[Hellisreal]

Hi Kitty,

Yes, Jeovah’s Witnesses absolutely believe Jesus is the Son of God. Our salvation depends on faith in the value of his ransom sacrifice.

We just had a series of international conventions entitled: “Follow The Christ”.

There is so much disinformation out there about JW’s…

Perhaps you will enjoy reading this:

[-]http://www.watchtower.org/e/20011115/article_01.htm](-]http://www.watchtower.org/e/20011115/article_01.htm)/-]Steve

Bogus stuff.

This was all done in response to Holy Father’s Jesus of Nazereth book.

Look and read the theological differences between the two.

Its uncharitable to comment further.

Its like reading Highlights children’s magazine versus well, almost anything else.

 

[Ravyn_Guiliani]

Its like reading Highlights children’s magazine versus well, almost anything else.

I used to love the hidden pictures, but overall I preferred Humpty Dumpty.

 

[Hellisreal]

I used to love the hidden pictures, but overall I preferred Humpty Dumpty.

I see your point. Hidden pictures… LOL

You are too funny. That is a sore spot for them.

 

[BibleSteve]

Steve,
I see that you are back at the same old stand, trying to prove the unprovable. Let’s see… you have a false prophet, a gimmicked bible, mormon theology, pagan practices, paranoid leadership and closed minds. Oh yes, your people are a nuisance, knocking on stranger’s doors. Did I miss anything? When are you JWs going to realize that Catholics on this forum are not going to believe your lies about the Watchtower society?

Hosemonkey,

The last time you commented on my posts your account was suspended due to your nasty name calling. Now you are continuing to divert the thread with other topics and insults?