Jehovah's witnesses still dont have an accurate translation?

[BibleSteve]

Oh, I haven’t ever used that analogy, but I have been very objective in comparing the NWT with others I must admit. The very first chapter of John’s gospel does come right to mind though and I do want to address this to you if I may. In all translations I have ever read, they all say that the Word (Jesus) was with God (in the beginning) and the Word was God. The NWT however states that the Word was A god. This totally changes everything! I can’t help but think ‘how clever’, only one letter different and the meaning is metamorphasized. Can you tell me why this is?

The discussion of John 1:1 has been batted around alot. It is also discussed in great detail in the above mentioned book on translation bias.

This brochure will outline the basic discussion: watchtower.org/e/ti/index.htm

There are also 50+ other translations out there that do not say “The Word was God”. I’d be glad to provide that list for you if you would like. Anyone can PM me for that list.

 

[TraditionalCath]

He does not have a choice. He can not. And we must believe him and give him the benefit of the doubt he did not know about TC.

I happened to be on some threads with them both, so I doubt his long or short term memory on this one.

In fact, I think TC put me on ignore that day.

i never had you on ignore and i never will i was probably dim witted and not seen your post. yes, biblesteve does know me. he has replied to my jw threads before. i can dig it up in my threads started, but what is the point? jeff and i both have spoken to him in debate.

 

[BibleSteve]

Yes, I have replied to comments by those who are ex-JW’s.

I’ll make sure to be more careful about that in the future.

 

[BrewMax]

The discussion of John 1:1 has been batted around alot. It is also discussed in great detail in the above mentioned book on translation bias.

This brochure will outline the basic discussion: watchtower.org/e/ti/index.htm

There are also 50+ other translations out there that do not say “The Word was God”. I’d be glad to provide that list for you if you would like. Anyone can PM me for that list.

I read your Watchtower link. I had read something similar to that a few years ago. I am quite surprised about other translations of Scripture referring to the Word as A god. I would be interested in knowing which ones they are. Back to the subject matter, if the Word is A god and not God, then this absolutely must mean that JW’s believe in more than one god. Is this so?

 

[Hellisreal]

Yes, I have replied to comments by those who are ex-JW’s.

I’ll make sure to be more careful about that in the future.

I am only trying to help jog your memory. I know as I get older, it can be a challenge.

Bible Steve,

You never were able to explain how a handicapped person could get your special edition study watchtower.

You never were able to explain why the official site does not have the current watchtower (of either variety) on the site itself.

This thread was started because I am of the mind that your organization is fed up with people that have seen the counter to your organizations wild interpretations of scripture. Now, your organization, has decided to do some damage control.

If you disagree, that is fine.

I was hoping you would be able to address this but, if you need someone higher up to speak for the organization, please have him come on by.

The problem with that, is I think you would be in deep trouble if you did ask a higher up to come here when you know you cant be here.

Therefore, we are kinda stuck with you.

Which is fine, but by what authority do you speak?

 

[Hellisreal]

I read your Watchtower link. I had read something similar to that a few years ago. I am quite surprised about other translations of Scripture referring to the Word as A god. I would be interested in knowing which ones they are. Back to the subject matter, if the Word is A god and not God, then this absolutely must mean that JW’s believe in more than one god. Is this so?

He denies the Trinity, its plain and simple.

It can not be so.

 

[hosemonkey]

Hosemonkey,

The last time you commented on my posts your account was suspended due to your nasty name calling. Now you are continuing to divert the thread with other topics and insults?

Steve,
I just hate to see a non-christian cult being touted as truth, when the basic theology of the Watchtower organization can be easily proven to be Non-Christian. To me it is just like teaching Communism, it enslaves the mind and spirit. If that gets me suspended, so be it.

 

[BrewMax]

Steve,
I just hate to see a non-christian cult being touted as truth, when the basic theology of the Watchtower organization can be easily proven to be Non-Christian. To me it is just like teaching Communism, it enslaves the mind and spirit. If that gets me suspended, so be it.

Ah, I wasn’t intending to go quite that far although I do share your feeling here. I am hoping for an answer to my earlier question of do JW’s believe that there is indeed more than one god.

 

[Kitty_Chan]

Hi Kitty,
Yes, Jeovah’s Witnesses absolutely believe Jesus is the Son of God. Our salvation depends on faith in the value of his ransom sacrifice.
We just had a series of international conventions entitled: “Follow The Christ”.
Perhaps you will enjoy reading this:
watchtower.org/e/20011115/article_01.htm
Steve

So I looked at that link, and a couple of items from it:

1. Jesus lived in heaven as a spirit person before he came to earth. He was God’s first creation, and so he is called the “firstborn” Son of God. (Colossians 1:15; Revelation 3:14)

I object to referring to our Lord as a “spirit person” and Jesus was not a creation, first or other wise. He is Gods Son not “called” the firstborn. As if there would be any others.

1. Jesus was a perfect human just like Adam. Unlike Adam, though, Jesus was perfectly obedient to God under even the greatest test. He could therefore sacrifice his perfect human life to pay for Adam’s sin. This is what the Bible refers to as the “ransom.” Adam’s children could thus be released from condemnation to death. All who put their faith in Jesus can have their sins forgiven and receive everlasting life.—1 Timothy 2:5, 6; John 3:16; Romans 5:18, 19.

Well, theres some truths in here, but they are mixed. Jesus is perfect thats true, but Hes NOT perfect “just like Adam” Adam was created, Jesus was not, He is the alpha and omega, the first and the last, the great I AM.

Jesus was perfectly obedient to God and I suppose it could be called a test, theres truths in that. The reason He is that way, because He honors God, who in turn honors Jesus. And yes faith in Jesus is good, as He said no one goes to the Father but through Me, as I and the Father are one.

1. Jesus died and was resurrected by God as a spirit creature, and he returned to heaven. (1 Peter 3:18) Since then, God has made him a King. Psalm 37:9-11; Proverbs 2:21, 22

Once again, I strongly object to my Lord being referred to as a “spirit creature” He is not a creature, He created so He cannot be a creature.

Not even sure about this King thats being referred to, yes Hes a King but Hes also everything more than that.

Im not liking the tone of these things.

 

[Hellisreal]

You are so right Kitty!

But, wait until you hear about the cows.

I have a protestant friend who emailed me this and I will post it now.

*** w61 12/15 p. 767 Questions from Readers ***

• How can girls guard against temptation in this sex-crazy world?

When a girl reaches the age of puberty or physical maturity, her body has developed in the matter of sex more than in the mind. Young folks like to be together, first in groups, later in twos. If they have not been instructed by their parents in regard to the matter of sex, a boy and a girl are likely to become too familiar and to engage in what is popularly called petting or necking. They may practice this for a time and see no bad results. However, the time will come when there will be great danger in such actions. Why? In answer to this question, we can learn about nature and sex from the bovine family of mammals, both wild and tame.

Large herds of cattle, both male and female, wander over the plains feeding. Ordinarily the male or bull would not think of approaching the female or cow for sex purposes. If he did approach he would not receive a hearty welcome, but, rather, he might be gored by the cow’s horns. There is no petting or sex relations between bull and cow permitted, because the female is not in physical condition to breed. The bull seems to understand this and keeps in his own place. However, when the female of the species is in condition to breed, she makes the matter known. If there is no male in the herd, she will go elsewhere looking for one and she is unsettled until she finds one and then is bred by him. Now she is contented, and the end result is a calf. In this connection it is interesting to note that the male animal has no season at which he is not willing to engage in the breeding act.

If we humans would take a lesson from these creatures, we would learn something of importance in matters of sex, as to its purpose and the results of its operation.

As with a cow, when a young girl who has reached her puberty is in physical condition to conceive and become pregnant, her sex emotions are greatly aroused. If she has association with a boy, she is inclined to think that it is the sweetness of the “boy friend” that causes this delightful and new feeling, and so she becomes infatuated with him. If the boy friend should become sexually aroused and lets her know it and then she yields her body to the advances of the amorous boy friend, she is likely to become pregnant as a result of just one sex experience of this kind.

So I looked at that link, and a couple of items from it:

1. Jesus lived in heaven as a spirit person before he came to earth. He was God’s first creation, and so he is called the “firstborn” Son of God. (Colossians 1:15; Revelation 3:14)

I object to referring to our Lord as a “spirit person” and Jesus was not a creation, first or other wise. He is Gods Son not “called” the firstborn. As if there would be any others.

1. Jesus was a perfect human just like Adam. Unlike Adam, though, Jesus was perfectly obedient to God under even the greatest test. He could therefore sacrifice his perfect human life to pay for Adam’s sin. This is what the Bible refers to as the “ransom.” Adam’s children could thus be released from condemnation to death. All who put their faith in Jesus can have their sins forgiven and receive everlasting life.—1 Timothy 2:5, 6; John 3:16; Romans 5:18, 19.

Well, theres some truths in here, but they are mixed. Jesus is perfect thats true, but Hes NOT perfect “just like Adam” Adam was created, Jesus was not, He is the alpha and omega, the first and the last, the great I AM.

Jesus was perfectly obedient to God and I suppose it could be called a test, theres truths in that. The reason He is that way, because He honors God, who in turn honors Jesus. And yes faith in Jesus is good, as He said no one goes to the Father but through Me, as I and the Father are one.

1. Jesus died and was resurrected by God as a spirit creature, and he returned to heaven. (1 Peter 3:18) Since then, God has made him a King. Psalm 37:9-11; Proverbs 2:21, 22

Once again, I strongly object to my Lord being referred to as a “spirit creature” He is not a creature, He created so He cannot be a creature.

Not even sure about this King thats being referred to, yes Hes a King but Hes also everything more than that.

Im not liking the tone of these things.

 

[BibleSteve]

I read your Watchtower link. I had read something similar to that a few years ago. I am quite surprised about other translations of Scripture referring to the Word as A god. I would be interested in knowing which ones they are. Back to the subject matter, if the Word is A god and not God, then this absolutely must mean that JW’s believe in more than one god. Is this so?

The word “god” is simply a descriptive title that is applied to many people and things.

Anything that is worshiped can be termed a god because the worshiper attributes to it might greater than his own and venerates it. A person can even let his belly be a god. (Ro 16:18; Php 3:18,*19) The Bible makes mention of many gods (Ps 86:8; 1Co 8:5,*6), but it shows that the gods of the nations are valueless gods.

Among the Hebrew words that are translated “God” is ’El, probably meaning “Mighty One; Strong One.” (Ge 14:18) It is used with reference to Jehovah, to other gods, and to men.

 

[Ravyn_Guiliani]

The word “god” is simply a descriptive title that is applied to many people and things.

Anything that is worshiped can be termed a god because the worshiper attributes to it might greater than his own and venerates it. A person can even let his belly be a god. (Ro 16:18; Php 3:18,*19) The Bible makes mention of many gods (Ps 86:8; 1Co 8:5,*6), but it shows that the gods of the nations are valueless gods.

Among the Hebrew words that are translated “God” is ’El, probably meaning “Mighty One; Strong One.” (Ge 14:18) It is used with reference to Jehovah, to other gods, and to men.

so then JWs worship Jesus too? if He is a ‘god’…???

 

[BibleSteve]

You never were able to explain how a handicapped person could get your special edition study watchtower.

You never were able to explain why the official site does not have the current watchtower (of either variety) on the site itself.

I’ve answered your questions in detail. Let me review for you:

1. We have many members that are handicapped. If they can’t get to the Kingdom Hall on their own, we’ll go pick them up If for some reason, they are so handicapped they can’t leave home, we’ll patch them in by phone. In all cases, if they are a member of the congregation or someone genuinely interested in attending or participating in the congregation meeting, they’ll recieve an issue of the study article. If a person has no interest in being a member, no interest in attending, no interest in participating, and simply wants a copy of the study article to dissect it with a motive of finding fault or being critical, they wouldn’t receive a copy. Is there any possible angle here I haven’t answered for you?
2. As for why the WTS doesn’t post the latest magazine on the website, that is because they havent’ chosen to do so. They put plenty of WT articles on there to cover a multitude of topics that are of interest to the general public. There is no technological reason they couldn’t put the latest magazine there. They simply have decided to not do that and hand deliver it to homes. Is there any possible angle I haven’t answered here for you?

 

[BibleSteve]

Steve,
I just hate to see a non-christian cult being touted as truth, when the basic theology of the Watchtower organization can be easily proven to be Non-Christian. To me it is just like teaching Communism, it enslaves the mind and spirit. If that gets me suspended, so be it.

Hosemonkey,

There’s no problem with disagreements in understanding, nor is there a problem in expressing your disagreement. In fact, I welcome your comments supported by various scriptural references.

The question is whether Forum rules permit discussion participants to call each other derogatory names.

 

[po18guy]

JW’s view the NWT as the most accurate translation available.It should also be noted that the author is not one of Jehovah’s Witnesses and yet he fully recognizes the accuracy of the NWT.

“And the Word was a God”? You mean over 1,900 years of translators all muffed it, but this guy got it right? That is beyond comprehnesion.

It just kinda seems strange that the Catholic, Eastern Orthodox and 32,999 Protestant denominations all agree on the translation of the bible, but not your organization, that’s all.

Just asking (no, not him)

 

[BibleSteve]

“And the Word was a God”? You mean over 1,900 years of translators all muffed it, but this guy got it right? That is beyond comprehnesion.

It just kinda seems strange that the Catholic, Eastern Orthodox and 32,999 Protestant denominations all agree on the translation of the bible, but not your organization, that’s all.

Just asking (no, not him)

Actually, you are probably not aware that there are 50+ translations out there which do not say “The Word was God”.

Most people incorrectly believe it’s just the NWT that says this…

50 other translations say things like “the Word was a god”… “The Word was Divine”… “The Word was god-like”…

When Trinitarians see this list, they often just attack the translators.

But nevertheless, there is disagreement amongst translators on John 1:1

You can read lots about this in this book: tinyurl.com/2hs6ho

 

[jschwehm]

The discussion in the KM was very straightforward, regarding what our Governing body “endorses”.

There is plenty that any religious leadership doesn’t endorse:

eating pizza, drinking beer,

Ummmm. Bible Steve, I was a JW and I even served at Bethel. I do not remember any official pronouncement against eating pizza and drinking beer and you should know that these practices are very very popular at Bethel at least during the time I was there.

Jeff S.
www.catholicxjw.com

 

[jschwehm]

Actually, you are probably not aware that there are 50+ translations out there which do not say “The Word was God”.

Most people incorrectly believe it’s just the NWT that says this…

50 other translations say things like “the Word was a god”… “The Word was Divine”… “The Word was god-like”…

When Trinitarians see this list, they often just attack the translators.

But nevertheless, there is disagreement amongst translators on John 1:1

Ironically the JWs will quote these translations that translate John 1:1 as “the Word was Divine” and yet the translators of many of these translations are Trinitarians and do not believe in the Neo-Arian Christology of the JWs. They interpret John 1:1 in exactly the same way that orthodox Christians interpret it, which is to say that the Word is fully Divine and has all of the qualities of Almighty God. Interesting, when the JWs cite these translations in support of their own translation they leave this very important fact out of the discussion.

Jeff S.
www.catholicxjw.com

 

[BrewMax]

The word “god” is simply a descriptive title that is applied to many people and things.

Anything that is worshiped can be termed a god because the worshiper attributes to it might greater than his own and venerates it. A person can even let his belly be a god. (Ro 16:18; Php 3:18,*19) The Bible makes mention of many gods (Ps 86:8; 1Co 8:5,*6), but it shows that the gods of the nations are valueless gods.

Among the Hebrew words that are translated “God” is ’El, probably meaning “Mighty One; Strong One.” (Ge 14:18) It is used with reference to Jehovah, to other gods, and to men.

This really doesn’t seem to jive though. Could we really put all these (could be) gods like money, food and other descriptive things in the same category as the son of God? Especially where Jesus is described with a small “g” god. This seems very devaluing to Jesus.

 

[TraditionalCath]

This really doesn’t seem to jive though. Could we really put all these (could be) gods like money, food and other descriptive things in the same category as the son of God? Especially where Jesus is described with a small “g” god. This seems very devaluing to Jesus.

apparently, the watchtower org loves to minimize Christ as much as possible. it is devaluing Christ. it really is.