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Bill_Pick
Guest
What does Charles Russell or any of the other JW know about Greek not one can talk any greek ,they wrote the bible to meet there teaching,it is not Christian,it is the bible of a cult. Get the book The Anwers to the Jehovah’s Witnesses a Challenge accepted " and get the truth this organization,that are completely programmed you need to run from this group
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reslight
Guest
John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
John 1:2 He was in the beginning with God.
John 1: 3 All things [Panta - all] came to be through him, and without him nothing came to be. What came to be
John 1:4 through him was life, and this life was the light of the human race. – Catholic New American translation.
panta di autou egeneto kai chwris autou
ALL (THINGS) THROUGH HIM CAME TO BE, AND APART FROM HIM
3956 1223 0846_3 1096 2532 5565 0846_3
egeneto oude hen
CAME TO BE NOT BUT ONE (THING).
1096 3761 1520
ho gegonen
WHICH HAS COME TO BE
3739 1096
Westcott & Hort Interlinear
The words “things” and “thing” are added by the translators.
“Pas” is used in Romans 8:22: “For we know that all [pasa] creation groans and travails in pain together until now.” “All creation” in Romans 8:22 is not the angels, the stars, the sun, the moon, etc., but rather the kosmos that has been subjected to vanity (Romans 8:20) due to Adam’s sin. (Romans 5:12-19) Absolutely “all creation” in the universe is not included in “all creation”, neither in Romans 8:20, nor in what is said in John 1:3. In the NT, this word rarely means absolutely everything in the universe, but it is always understood in the context as well as common evidence. John 1:10 shows that in John 1:3, the “all” that is being referred to is the world of mankind, as in Romans 8:22. The only true God (John 17:1,3) is the Creator (Mark 10:6; 13:19; ); the Word was the agent that the Creator used to bring into being “all”.
The negative usage of terms such as “not one” is also subject to what is being spoken of. In Hebrews 2:8, in speaking what has been subjected to man as spoken of in Psalm 8:6, we read: “For in that [God] subjected all things to him, [God] left nothing that is not subject to him. But now [the kosmos has been subjected to futility – Romans 5:12-19; 8:20] we don’t see all things subjected to him, yet.” God left nothing that is not subject to man. Psalm 8:7,8 describes the “all” that was subjected to man. (Genesis 1:26,28) All that was subjected to man pertains to all the earth, not absolutely all the universe.
“The beginning” in John 1:1 is the beginning of the world (kosmos spoken of in John 1:10), the six days of creation of the land (earth) and the sky (heavens) and the things in them as seen from the surface of the planet. (Genesis 1:1,3-31; Exodus 20:11; 31:17) The “all” being referred to is that which is spoken of as “the beginning”, all pertaining to the six days of creation of the kosmos of John 1:10; 17:5 and Romans 5:12.
The word the “beginning” (reg creation) usually refers to the kosmos, the world of mankind. Matthew 19:4; Mark 10:6 [Genesis 1:26-31]; Matthew 19:8; Matthew 24:21; Mark 13:19. The Greek word “kosmos” as used in the Bible, refers to the the world existing upon the planet earth; it does not refer to the entire universe. This is the “world” that the Word came into, and that did not recognize him. (John 1:10) The NT writers understood that this beginning was in reference to things upon the planet earth, not to the entire universe itself.
Please note that the ‘creation’ spoken of in Colossians 1:15,16 includes the living creation both in heaven and earth, while the beginning spoken of in John 1:1 and the creation spoken of in John 1:3,10 refers to the world of mankind, the creation that has been subjected to vanity, futility, because of Adam’s sin. (Romans 8:20) In Isaiah 44:24, however, we read of the creation of the material universe (the big bang?), and since Yahweh was alone when he created the material universe, the conclusion is that the material universe was created before the spirit world.
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reslight
Guest
John 3:5 - Jesus answered, "Amen, amen, I say to you, no one can enter the kingdom of God without being born of water and Spirit. - Catholic New American.
Colossians 1:13 - He delivered us from the power of darkness and transferred us to the kingdom of his beloved Son. – Catholic New American.
What is being imagined is that since the believers are transferred to the kingdom of God’s son, and since Jesus said that no one can enter the kingdom of God, then Jesus must be the “God” of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. It has to be further imagined and assumed that
this means that Jesus is a person of the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.
Solomon sit on the throne of the Kingdom of Yahweh. (1 Chronicles 28:5) Yahweh refers to this kingdom as being Solomon’s kingdom. (2 Chronicles 7:18) Does this mean that Solomon is a person of Yahweh?
Like Solomon, Jesus is given the kingdom from his God and Father. (Psalm 2:6-8; Isaiah 9:7; Jeremiah 23:5; Daniel 7:14; Matthew 28:28; Luke 1:32; 10:22; John 3:35; 5:21-29; Acts 2:30,34,36; 5:31; Ephesians 1:20-22; Philippians 2:9-11; Hebrews 1:2; 1 Peter 3:22) This does not mean that Jesus is a person of the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.
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SteveVH
Guest
Reslight, I think you might get further if you kept your posts to a manageble amount of information. Mass quantities of info only muddy the waters, not to mention that there is a forum rule that states:
“Messages should be short. Do not post lengthy replies (especially replies that consist largely of quotes from an earlier message).”
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Javl
Guest
reslight:
Thanks for your answer. I understand your position, but I do not accept it. You are playing with semantics and reading into scripture what is not there. According to the “Bible Students” what traditional Christiani theologians and scholars have known, understood,
believed, and taught for the 1800 years before Charles T. Russel “discovered” the truth ( without any training or understanding of Biblical languages ) is in actuality total error. This is hard to believe and accept. Arianism ( as is presently taught by the “Bible Students”, and JWs, etc. ) has been refuted and proven to be in error, heresy, and a false belief in itself.
As I have mentioned the Bible ( scriptures ) abounds with proof of the existence of the Holy Trinity and of the deity of the Word ( Jesus ). Read the scriptures, without prejudice, and see and learn for yourself.
PAX DOMINI
Shalom Aleichem
P.S. Please answer my post #284. Thank you
Thanks for your answer. I understand your position, but I do not accept it. You are playing with semantics and reading into scripture what is not there. According to the “Bible Students” what traditional Christiani theologians and scholars have known, understood,
believed, and taught for the 1800 years before Charles T. Russel “discovered” the truth ( without any training or understanding of Biblical languages ) is in actuality total error. This is hard to believe and accept. Arianism ( as is presently taught by the “Bible Students”, and JWs, etc. ) has been refuted and proven to be in error, heresy, and a false belief in itself.
As I have mentioned the Bible ( scriptures ) abounds with proof of the existence of the Holy Trinity and of the deity of the Word ( Jesus ). Read the scriptures, without prejudice, and see and learn for yourself.
PAX DOMINI
Shalom Aleichem
P.S. Please answer my post #284. Thank you
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Fidei
Guest
Reslight, John 1:1.
In the beginning was the Word and the Word Was with God and the Word was God
You ask, how can the word be God if he is WITH God? this doesn’t make sense! but here you have it, in plain sight— the word was God!
If we speak of the trinity as a human body, God is the head, and Christ is His literal right hand—then we can also say, my hand is with me always because my hand is me myself and it’s a part of my body!
In the beginning was the Word and the Word Was with God and the Word was God
You ask, how can the word be God if he is WITH God? this doesn’t make sense! but here you have it, in plain sight— the word was God!
If we speak of the trinity as a human body, God is the head, and Christ is His literal right hand—then we can also say, my hand is with me always because my hand is me myself and it’s a part of my body!
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Fidei
Guest
I have dealt with this heresy against the trinity for some time, and they (JW’s) dont or will not try to accept it. They tend to cling with the metaphor that Christ is godlike but never God.
To believe in the Trinity and Christ’s divinity is to be Christian and I tell you, this modern day “bible students” and “Jehovah’s witnesses” is only inspired by men around 100 years ago claiming to have authority over the bible. They carry such prestigious names but proving opposite to their capabilities.
To believe in the Trinity and Christ’s divinity is to be Christian and I tell you, this modern day “bible students” and “Jehovah’s witnesses” is only inspired by men around 100 years ago claiming to have authority over the bible. They carry such prestigious names but proving opposite to their capabilities.
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reslight
Guest
Charles Taze Russell was never associated with the Jehovah’s Witnesses organization, and never believed in such an authoritarian organization. Russell stated: “the Lord in Heaven records as members of His true Church all the saintly — whether Roman Catholics, Anglican Catholics, Greek Catholics, Baptists, Methodists, Presbyterians, etc. — and none others…. Do we not see that a part of our mistake was in calling the outward organization the Church of Christ, instead of remembering that the Lord alone writes the names of the Church, that He alone reads the hearts, that He alone is the Judge, and that He alone has the right to blot out the names of those who become reprobates? … We must see that the Church is a comparatively small company of saintly footstep followers of Jesus, irrespective of sectarian lines.” (Pastor Russell’s Sermons, “St. Peter’s Keys”) And Russell stated: “all who are worshiping any church organization should be warned. See thou do it not.’ These are thy fellow servants. ‘Worship God.’
Rev. 22:9.” He further stated: “so far as the true Church is concerned, the only authority in it is the Lord, the Head of the Church, and his Word, and the words of those whom he specially chose to be his mouth-pieces, the apostles.” And, “we believe that in every nation and denomination there are some true saints of God, members therefore of the true Church of God.” – Russell’s Sermons in the Overland Monthly Reprints, page 385.Charles Taze Russell was assisted by Paul S. L. Johnson, who was very well trained both in the Biblical Hebrew and Koine Greek. Paul S. L. Johnson graduated from from Capital University in Columbus, OH on May 25, 1898. He won the valedictory and also the highest honors ever given in the history of that university. He also graduated from the Theological Seminary of the Ohio Synod of the Lutheran Church. He was thoroughly educated in both Biblical Hebrew and Koine Greek; this gave him the skills necessary to understand the Bible from the original languages. Paul S. L. Johnson, although he was associated with the Bible Students, never accepted Rutherford’s new organization which became called “Jehovah’s Witnesses,” thus, Johnson never was a member of that organization.
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T_More
Guest
I think this is semantics. Russell founded Zion’s Watch Tower. This entity became The Watchtower after Rutherford took control, and illegally I might add, by ignoring Russell’s Will, if memory serves.
Russell was not trained in Greek or Hebrew and in fact had minimal schooling, and he was never ordained by anyone.
From Wiki:
In June 1912 Reverend J.J. Ross, pastor of the James Street Baptist Church in Hamilton, Ontario, published the pamphlet, Some facts about the Self-Styled ‘Pastor’ Charles T. Russell, denouncing Russell, his qualifications as a minister, and his moral example as a Pastor. Russell promptly sued Ross for “defamatory libel”. During the examination on March 17, 1913, Russell admitted that at most he had attended school only seven years of his life at the public school, and that he had left school when he was about fourteen years of age. As Counselor Staunton pressed him further, Russell admitted that he knew nothing about Latin and Hebrew, and that he had never taken a course in philosophy or systematic theology, and had never attended schools of higher learning.[62][63] The Hamilton and Toronto Newspapers reported the claims made by Ross, but made no charges of misconduct on the part of Russell, and instead criticized Ross for his personal behavior and unprofessional demeanor.[64][65] In answer to Ross’s accusations, Russell stated through various printed and public sources that he never claimed knowledge of the Greek language, merely the alphabet. He believed that his ordination was “of God” according to the ‘biblical pattern’, not requiring any denominational approval, and that his annual election as “Pastor” by over 1,200 congregations worldwide constituted him as “ordained”, or chosen, to be a minister of the gospel.
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Javl
Guest
I remember reading once about “Pastor” Russel where he was being sued. In court in the witness chair, “Pastor” Russel claimed that he could read and understand Greek. Under intense questioning by the prosecuting attorney, he finally admitted to not even recognizing all the letters of the Greek alphabet.
Another time, the “Pastor” touted “miracle wheat” which was “many, many times better” and he sold for $1.00 a bushel ( a hefty sum in those days ). Although the U.S. Government, after testing, said that the wheat was of inferior quality, Russel insisted it was not. About $1800 worth was sold. When the Gov’t brought charges against him, Russel said that he was only helping a friend out and denied that he was making any money from it and claimed that the $1800 was given to the Watchtower as a donation.
These were only two incedents in “Pastor” Russel’s life. There were many others. How can anyone be duped into following a man like this and who claims to be “God’s mouthpiece”? Shades of Joseph Smith and his escapades!!!
PAX DOMINI
Shalom Aleichem
Another time, the “Pastor” touted “miracle wheat” which was “many, many times better” and he sold for $1.00 a bushel ( a hefty sum in those days ). Although the U.S. Government, after testing, said that the wheat was of inferior quality, Russel insisted it was not. About $1800 worth was sold. When the Gov’t brought charges against him, Russel said that he was only helping a friend out and denied that he was making any money from it and claimed that the $1800 was given to the Watchtower as a donation.
These were only two incedents in “Pastor” Russel’s life. There were many others. How can anyone be duped into following a man like this and who claims to be “God’s mouthpiece”? Shades of Joseph Smith and his escapades!!!
PAX DOMINI
Shalom Aleichem
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Bill_Pick
Guest
Will please tell me where to g ot this info ,Ches Taze Russell was never associated with the Jehovah’s Witnesses organization,
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Bill_Pick
Guest
I hate to be the one to tell youR, but you do not know the Divinityy of Christ and You are NOT a Christian,The JW are a false Rirgion
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Vasian
Guest
Your are playing semantics and at best perhaps from sort of a legalistic definition he was not “technically” the current day WTS
Nonetheless, Russell was associated with and the primary instrument out of which the early organization formed, and that morphed into the present day WTS.
The big schism occurred after his death.
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Bill_Pick
Guest
The JW was started in 1874 in Penn. by Cas Russel
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Vasian
Guest
Who is Cas Russell?
Charles Taze Russell is the man who started the whole Watchtower publication and movement.
It was originally called “Zion’s Watch Tower and Herald of Christ’s Presence”.
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Javl
Guest
And no matter how you slice it, the Jehovahs Witnesses, Bible Students, and all other such “religious organizations” that preach Arianism, are all the “children” of Charles Taze Russel.
PAX DOMINI
Shalom Aleichem
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reslight
Guest
It is more than semantics. There was no organization like the JW organization at all in the days of Russell. After Russell died, Rutherford slowly constructed that “organization” and introduced a doctrine of “Jehovah’s organization,” with a central authority that claimed to be the representatives of that organization one earth, which basically meant that Rutherford was supposed to the representative of Christ on earth. Rutherford rejected the “ransom for all,” and replaced it with a teaching that basically said, agree with me or go into the second death. As I said, by 1930, the majority of the earlier Bible Students did not accept Rutherford’s organization doctrine, nor his new teachings on the sheep and goats, the second death, Armageddon, etc.
Yes, Russell never claimed to have been trained in either Greek or Hebrew. As I stated, however, he was assisted by Paul S. L. Johnson, who was indeed well trained in both languages.
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reslight
Guest
Jesus was most definitely not the only true God whom he was with, and I believe John emphasized that twice! Jesus denied that he was only true God who sent him in as recorded in John 17:3. Having already discussed John 1:1 several times, I will only add that Paul S. L… Johnson, in his book entitled “God”, gives the meaning of theos as applied to the one sent by the only true God as “a mighty one.” Similarly, the author of the Unitarian section under John 1:1 in the book, The Great Debate Regading The Father, The Son and The Holy Spirit, states:
I have given before the scriptural basis for this.
I would never say that my hand is a separate and distinct person of myself, nor that my hand is wholly myself. It is a part of me, as a part of my body, but the trinitarian dogma would not have it that Jesus is a part of God, but that he is wholly God.
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reslight
Guest
I discussed this briefly in post #237. The scripture itself does not say who Yahweh is speaking to, but from the New Testament we can determine that Jesus was speaking to his Son, through whom the world of mankind was made. (John 1:3,10) This does not mean that Yahweh’s son is Yahweh.
Jesus, before he took the name Jesus. That John is applying the term “Logos” to the Son of God can be seen from Revelation 19:13, where Jesus is called by the titular name, “The Logos of God.” Jesus is the word of God because he is the promised prophet like Moses, of whom Yahweh foretold: “I will put my words in his mouth, and he shall speak to them all that I shall command him.” — Deuteronomy 18:18; Acts 3:13-26; Hebrews 1:1,2.
John, of course, is writing retrospectively in John 1:1,2, using the title of the promised one who would speak the words of Yahweh, although it is also probable that Jesus was used as the Word of Yahweh before he became flesh.
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