JEPD theory

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Here’s an example of a flaw in the JEPD theory.
Genesis chapter 22:
Code:
**22:1  *It happened some time later that God ****(Elohim) ****put Abraham to the test.  ‘Abraham, Abraham!’ he called. ‘Here I am,’ he replied. *****2*God said, ‘Take your son, your only son, your beloved Isaac, and go to the land of Moriah, where you are to offer him as a burnt offering on one of the mountains which I shall point out to you.’ *****3*Early next morning Abraham saddled his donkey and took with him two of his servants and his son Isaac.  He chopped wood for the burnt offering and started on his journey to the place which God*** *(Elohim) ****had indicated to him. *****4*On the third day Abraham looked up and saw the place in the distance. *****5*Then Abraham said to his servants, ‘Stay here with the donkey.  The boy and I are going over there; we shall worship and then come back to you.’ *****6*Abraham took the wood for the burnt offering, loaded it on Isaac, and carried in his own hands the fire and the knife.  Then the two of them set out together. *****7*Isaac spoke to his father Abraham.  ‘Father?’ he said.  ‘Yes, my son,’ he replied.  ‘Look,’ he said, ‘here are the fire and the wood, but where is the lamb for the burnt offering?’ *****8*Abraham replied, ‘My son, God ****(Elohim) ****himself will provide the lamb for the burnt offering.’ And the two of them went on together.***
22:9***When they arrived at the place which God ****(Elohim) *had indicated to him, Abraham built an altar there, and arranged the wood. Then he bound his son and put him on the altar on top of the wood. *****10Abraham stretched out his hand and took the knife to kill his son. *****11But the angel of Yahweh called to him from heaven. ‘Abraham, Abraham!’ he said. ‘Here I am,’ he replied. **12Do not raise your hand against the boy,’ the angel said. ‘Do not harm him, for now I know you fear God (Elohim). You have not refused me your own (only) beloved son.’ *****13Then looking up, Abraham saw a ram caught by its horns in a bush. Abraham took the ram and offered it as a burnt offering in place of his son. *****14Abraham called this place ‘Yahweh provides’, and hence the saying today: ‘On the mountain Yahweh provides.’ **15The angel of Yahweh called Abraham a second time from heaven. *16‘I swear by my own self, Yahweh declares, that because you have done this, because you have not refused me your (only) own beloved son, **17I will shower blessings on you and make your descendants as numerous as the stars of heaven and the grains of sand on the seashore. Your descendants will gain possession of the gates of their enemies. *****18All nations on earth will bless themselves by your descendants, because you have obeyed my command.’ *****19Abraham went back to his servants, and together they set out for Beersheba, and Abraham settled in Beersheba. *
*Literal Hebrew has “only” and not “own” beloved son in verses 12 and 16 (*Interlineal Bible: Hebrew-English, *pages 50-51).
Here’s what I found regarding this passage:
It is interesting that in the first verse of this passage Scripture returns to identifying God in the plural as the Elohim, the God of the Creation. The plural form “Elohim” will be used five times in this passage (Gen 22:1, 3, 8, 9, 12), while God’s covenant name will be used four times (Gen 22:11, 14, 15, 16). Those who espouse the Document Hypothesis theory suggest that this account is taken from two different oral traditions that are pieced together to form this part of the narrative (the “E” and “Y” elements; see note “a”, New Jerusalem Bible, page 41). However, those who hold that view miss the significant use of these two forms for God: that “Elohim” is only used in the first half of the narrative (and by the angel in verse 12), while the use of God’s covenant name, “Yahweh”, is only found in the narrative after Abraham passed the covenant ordeal. God’s covenant name is used twice to identify the angel as “the angel of Yahweh” (verses 11 and 15) and then two more times: in verse 14 where Abraham named the place Yahweh yireh (“Yahweh will provide”) and finally in verse 16 when the angle of Yahweh called to Abraham a second time from heaven, declaring “I swear by my own self, Yahweh declares…”.
Now, I ask you, is this an “Intermingling”? I’m sorry, but that dog don’t hunt.

BTW, I got this from AgapeBibleStudy.Com and their study of The Book of Moses - Genesis.
 
Well, if you aren’t looking for it, it is possible you would never know about the flood story intertwining. As for the creation story, it is quite obvious that there are two creation stories one after the other…why would Moses include 2 contradicting stories of creation? I just think that the multiple source theory seems to make more sense, and the people that are claiming Moses to be the author usually have a theological reasoning behind it.
The two creation stories are not contradictory, they are complementary. Chapter 2 details what happened on the sixth “day” of creation (I am not espousing a literal six day creation here, as the entire passage from creation to the fall is quite poetical and allegorical). Agin, your logic fails.
 
Let me ask you, if the JEPD theory is simply a compiling of eons of traditions, why aren’t any of these traditions found on their own?
The earliest manuscripts we have for the OT are from WELL after they were written. It is also possible that some of these sources were oral traditions.
 
lol, Moses didn’t write the pentateuch. 1,500 years of the church held true that the earth was the center of the universe…do you believe that?
It’s too bad people throw around comments like this one, as if these discussions were a game of “kick the can.”

There are good reasons why people believe that Moses was responsible generally if not specifically for authoring parts of the bible. There may be more or less support for that idea, but does it help to inject sarcasm? Are you so smart as to say that Moses was responsible for NOTHING in scripture?
 
Originally Posted by hellopeople
lol, Moses didn’t write the pentateuch. 1,500 years of the church held true that the earth was the center of the universe…do you believe that?
It’s too bad people throw around comments like this one, as if these discussions were a game of “kick the can.”… There may be more or less support for that idea, but does it help to inject sarcasm?..
I would like to hear the answer to Crumpy’s question about this remark as well. Is that kind of non-argument passes for rational, mature discussion in some circles?
 
But the burden of proof falls on the one claiming that the historical teaching of the Church is incorrect. One can be a faithful Catholic and accept JEPD, but we are not bound to hold to it. I choose to reject it.
has anyone ever heard of the word “hypothesis”? It is a word that refers to an idea to be tested or yet to be demonstrated.

If we were smart enough, like the real scholars who studied the Genesis document, we might be staring at the evidence that they are using to propose that there were different traditions that were stitched together to create the final document of Genesis. That Genesis is a composite, based on literary analysis alone, is indisputable.

I’m not afraid to be a name dropper, and I’ll mention Nahum Sarna’s Commentary on Genesis, published by the Jewish Publication Society. Sarna discusses the subject of the the “quilt” of the text of Genesis, far better than is being treated here. It is far more interesting how WELL the text is patched together, and how much we can learn from studying the patches.

One of the observations Sarna makes has to do with the antiquity of Genesis. There are names for God that are present in Genesis inside or alongside very old text. There are people and place names that appear in Genesis but then never again in the Bible.

It is far more interesting to study the patches in Genesis, rather than get a nosebleed about whether there are patches of text.

Sarna points out the literary structure of Genesis at many salient points. There is far more structure to the text than might appear from a straightfoward reading. In fact, aside from the JEPD stuff, there are twelve main sections in Genesis, demarked with Hebrew words that get lost in the translation shuffle. He doesn’t explore those divisions beyond demonstrating the point that Genesis is broken up into episodes quite intentionally by the narrator (redactor) of the book.

I didn’t know what to make of those cryptic footnotes in the NAB about the JEPD idea. I like the Jewish commentary because it wades into the depth of the Hebrew text.

You can pick up the JPS commentaries at a discount, if you are interested. They had a 40% off sale this year and last, at the beginning of the year.

I certainly would appreciate a recommendation for an equivalent Christian commentary on Genesis. Sarna is decidedly anti-Christian at times, to be sure, especially in his description and commentary of the “binding” of Isaac by Abraham.
 
The earliest manuscripts we have for the OT are from WELL after they were written. It is also possible that some of these sources were oral traditions.
But you are claiming that EVERY SINGLE Oral Tradition was swallowed up into the Pentateuch?!?!?

That’s quite a feat!
 
I have no doubts that Moses existed – I saw the movie. As they say, Hey Moses, smell the roses.
No! No! No!

“Hear, Oh Israel, I have here 15 (crash)… no, 10… 10 Commandments!” :rotfl:
 
Thanx for all the responses – I didn’t mean to set things off.

For now I’ll keep JEPD filed under “interesting if true”.
 
But you are claiming that EVERY SINGLE Oral Tradition was swallowed up into the Pentateuch?!?!?

That’s quite a feat!
Hmm. Unless they were written in some other parallel source, how would we merely-literate know that they existed?

I would conclude that oral traditions the Holy Spirit wanted to preserve wound up being recorded in the written record, while any others that may have existed faded away.
 
Hmm. Unless they were written in some other parallel source, how would we merely-literate know that they existed?

I would conclude that oral traditions the Holy Spirit wanted to preserve wound up being recorded in the written record, while any others that may have existed faded away.
I think you misunderstand my point.

Let’s take the creation account, for example. There is the claim that the author (or collator) of the Pentateuch drew from two traditions. It would be highly improbable that there are no sources or even reference to either one of these creation accounts without the other one. In other words, the Creation Accounts are only found (or referenced) together… never separate.

The same goes for the so-called “JEPD” traditions. It is highly improbable that none of these traditions survived on their own. There is no mention of them outside the Pentateuch (where they are wrapped up with the other traditions).
 
What ARE you doing here, anyway? Just whacking at hornets’ nests for your own amusement?
There has yet to be any evidence outside the bible (historical texts or physical evidence) that the exodus even happened. I’m not saying it didn’t happen, but it is quite possible that it didn’t.
 
I think you misunderstand my point.

Let’s take the creation account, for example. There is the claim that the author (or collator) of the Pentateuch drew from two traditions. It would be highly improbable that there are no sources or even reference to either one of these creation accounts without the other one. In other words, the Creation Accounts are only found (or referenced) together… never separate.
That is because all we have is the bible. We don’t have any other texts dealing with the Israelites at the time.
 
That is because all we have is the bible. We don’t have any other texts dealing with the Israelites at the time.
No, we have eternal writings that show that King David existed and others.

But, regarding the separate JEPD traditions, one must consider that this theory assumes the Old Testament was first compiled during the time of Ezra (6th century BC). This would mean that the 10 northern tribes would have been dispersed for 3 centuries throughout the old Assyrian empire. One of those oral traditions, or even a bit of one of those oral traditions should have surfaced between then and now.

But what everyone has to admit, even those who hold to the JEPD separate traditions, is that there is no proof that this is so.

… and yet, I find it odd that someone who doubts the Exodus story by saying there is no proof, accepts the JEPD theory which is absolutely no proof.

Interesting.
 
No, we have eternal writings that show that King David existed and others.

But, regarding the separate JEPD traditions, one must consider that this theory assumes the Old Testament was first compiled during the time of Ezra (6th century BC). This would mean that the 10 northern tribes would have been dispersed for 3 centuries throughout the old Assyrian empire. One of those oral traditions, or even a bit of one of those oral traditions should have surfaced between then and now.

But what everyone has to admit, even those who hold to the JEPD separate traditions, is that there is no proof that this is so.

… and yet, I find it odd that someone who doubts the Exodus story by saying there is no proof, accepts the JEPD theory which is absolutely no proof.

Interesting.
I am aware of the “house of david” inscription, but that is from a millennium after Moses was supposed to exist.
 
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