Jesuit general: all doctrine is subject to discernment [CWN]

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Myself I’m not too upset. Concerned but not upset. Everyone, starting from the top and filtering downwards, is choosing their side - for Catholic teaching or against it. It’s a separating out, a winnowing, a clearing of the air. It is IMHO the only way the Church can rid herself of the poison that has been festering within her structures for the past 60-odd years.
 
  1. God is love (1 John 4:8).
There you go, that’s all we need to know. We can forget the rest of it.

Please note precisely what John said… “God is love”.

Please note that he didn’t say, “God is tradition, dogma, doctrine, ceremony, rules, clerical authority, a trillion dollar real estate empire, the mass production of sanctimonious platitudes, rank title and fancy costumes etc etc”.

If we let go of all that stuff then the only way to be a Christian would be to love, serve, and surrender. And the decision we’d face would be ruthlessly simple. We either do it, or we don’t.

But luckily, thanks to the Pope, the Church, and many of you guys, I don’t have to love, serve and surrender. Nope, I can just endlessly type wonderful intellectually clever sermons all over this forum and convince myself, and maybe even a few of you, that I’m interested in the teachings of Jesus. I don’t know how to thank you guys, because typing is SO MUCH easier than loving, serving and surrendering. Phew! That was a close one. Thank God for The Church, my get out of jail free card!

Guys, seriously, if Jesus wanted to do all this…

…tradition, dogma, doctrine, ceremony, rules, clerical authority, a trillion dollar real estate empire, the mass production of sanctimonious platitudes, rank title and fancy costumes etc etc…

He would have joined the Jewish clergy, because they already had that operation up and running.
 
Ormond mischaracterizes true love as being some kind of negative ideology.
Please argue with what I actually said, which I don’t object to at all, instead of what you wished I’d said. Thank you very much.
 
However, you may reject all this as I see your religion is listed as human.
Jesus gave Christianity to the human race, not to the Vatican.

At the moment we identify ourselves as Catholic, Jewish, Hindu, Communist etc we have joined the process of dividing the human race which Jesus is trying to unite. Love does not involve creating a category for yourself which is then declared superior to all other categories.
Perhaps you could elaborate on it, but the way I presently interpret your religious affiliation is that you place humans above God, making the human race into gods themselves. This is why it’s so easy for you to buy into the morally relativistic notions set forth by the Jesuit General.
How you got all that out of a single word is beyond me. I’m agreeing with the good Jesuit because discernment is simply the reality of the situation for all of us. All of us decide for ourselves which ideas we will accept and which we won’t. Choosing to be a conservative traditionalist Catholic doesn’t change that equation a bit.
Your caricature of Catholic doctrine, “a pile of papers at the Vatican”, proves you have no idea what you’re talking about regarding the Catholic outlook on truth and love.
I’m not all that interested in the endless Catholic talking of the talk, because even I can do that. I’m interested in the Catholic walking of the walk, because that’s something I might be able to learn from.

Want to win me over, persuade me, save my soul etc? Show me so many threads about Catholic Charities that all this endlessly pointless competitive dogma chanting from the left and right is pushed so far down in the forum listings that nobody can find it.
 
There you go, that’s all we need to know. We can forget the rest of it.

Please note precisely what John said… “God is love”.

Please note that he didn’t say, “God is tradition, dogma, doctrine, ceremony, rules, clerical authority, a trillion dollar real estate empire, the mass production of sanctimonious platitudes, rank title and fancy costumes etc etc”.

If we let go of all that stuff then the only way to be a Christian would be to love, serve, and surrender. And the decision we’d face would be ruthlessly simple. We either do it, or we don’t.

But luckily, thanks to the Pope, the Church, and many of you guys, I don’t have to love, serve and surrender. Nope, I can just endlessly type wonderful intellectually clever sermons all over this forum and convince myself, and maybe even a few of you, that I’m interested in the teachings of Jesus. I don’t know how to thank you guys, because typing is SO MUCH easier than loving, serving and surrendering. Phew! That was a close one. Thank God for The Church, my get out of jail free card!

Guys, seriously, if Jesus wanted to do all this…

…tradition, dogma, doctrine, ceremony, rules, clerical authority, a trillion dollar real estate empire, the mass production of sanctimonious platitudes, rank title and fancy costumes etc etc…

He would have joined the Jewish clergy, because they already had that operation up and running.
Sanctimonious. I think you fit in perfectly.
 
St. Ignatius makes it a point to emphatically state that one must be certain the discernment comes from God and not the Evil One. It’s interesting how this man never brings that into the conversation. He is so sure that his discernment is correct, despite the fact that it goes against 2,000 years of Church teaching.

I have had some experience with Ignatian spirituality and have always been uncomfortable with the whole use of the imagination. I am firmly with the Orthodox Church on this,

Unlike Roman Catholicism, the Orthodox Tradition does not encourage the use of mental imagery. In fact, it almost appears to forbid sensory imagination during prayer altogether. In the words of one of the contemporary Orthodox elders, Abbot Nikon (Vorobyev) (1894-1963), “that, which sternly, decisively, with threats and imploring is forbidden by the Eastern Fathers—Western ascetics strive to acquire through all efforts and means” (424).
pravmir.com/article_545.html

I kept questioning both my spiritual adviser and the priests running the retreat house, how one could guard against error when using one’s imagination to communicate with God and discern His Will. I never did get an answer which satisfied me. After reading this interview, I think the answer is one can’t. Mind you this is just my discernment.

Sadly, I find the Holy Spirit, urging me to seek refuge in either the Orthodox Church or the SSPX. I have fought this urge off for four years, mainly because in my area, Toronto, Catholic churches are everywhere but there is only one SSPV chapel and only two Orthodox Churches which work mainly in English. I think this is the kick in the backside I needed to stop continuing in the Roman Catholic Church because it is convenient.
 
Perhaps my living in the Bible Belt has made me too quick to understand statements like this as being equivalent to the subjectivist protestant fundamentalist “Well, maybe YOUR bible tells you that, but MY bible says…”

Of some possible interest, we have a significant number of converts from those churches, and one of the reasons is the certitude the Catholic Church offers.
 
Sanctimonious. I think you fit in perfectly.
I do, you’re right! It’s amazing really. Haven’t been to Mass in 50 years, and coming here it feels as though I never left. Catholic beyond choice, thanks to good old Catholic DNA.
 
I kept questioning both my spiritual adviser and the priests running the retreat house, how one could guard against error when using one’s imagination to communicate with God and discern His Will. I never did get an answer which satisfied me. After reading this interview, I think the answer is one can’t. Mind you this is just my discernment.
There you go, that’s it. It’s just your discernment. The Jesuit is not suggesting anything you are not already doing.
 
There you go, that’s all we need to know. We can forget the rest of it.
Please note precisely what John said… “God is love”.
Wow, how truly sad that you just decide on your own to “forget the rest of it”. “It” being the Bible, as well as the Church that Jesus founded. You can’t follow the logical conclusion that stems from point one because you have a warped view of what love is. Define it. But you never responded to my request for an elaboration on what you mean by your religion being “human”. So I’ll ask you straight up:

What’s your religious affiliation? Do you believe in God? If so, do you believe that Jesus is God?

And it’s also disheartening how you completely mischaracterize the Catholic Church yet again, throwing up so many strawmen that it would take a book to refute the bald assertions you’ve made in just a few sentences:
Please note that he didn’t say, ‘God is tradition, dogma, doctrine, ceremony, rules, clerical authority, a trillion dollar real estate empire, the mass production of sanctimonious platitudes, rank title and fancy costumes etc etc’.
I’m not going to bother having a conversation with someone who presents a complete caricature of what it means to be a Catholic Christian, so please stop with the nonsense about “real estate empires” and the like. Catholics believe that Jesus and the Church are one, and Jesus is the Church’s head; we are the members of the Body of Christ. You can’t separate Jesus from the Church, plain and simple. This is what Catholic Christians believe, and I encourage you to study more about our faith before you present a complete caricature of it. You act is if “typing” (I would hope we could call it a respectable dialogue) and “loving, serving and surrendering” are mutually exclusive. You don’t even seem to consider the notion that “typing” can in fact be one in the same thing with “loving, serving and surrendering”. But perhaps your own “ideology” won’t allow you to see that?
Guys, seriously, if Jesus wanted to do all this…
…tradition, dogma, doctrine, ceremony, rules, clerical authority, [etc.]
Well, yea… He did. Just not in the way you mischaracterize it, i.e., seeing “rules” as a negative thing. You forget that Jesus was a practicing Jew. He observed all the Jewish ceremonial and moral laws. A cursory reading of the Gospels would tell you that. See for yourself:
Think not that I have come to abolish the law and the prophets; I have come not to abolish them but to fulfill them. For truly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the law until all is accomplished. Whoever then relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but he who does them and teaches them shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. (Matt. 5: 17-19)
And before you or anyone thinks that Jesus’ law and His “rules” are too hard or do not lead us to a greater love of our fellow man, consider Jesus’ words here:
Take my yoke upon you, and learn from me; for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light. (Matt. 5: 29-30)
 
There you go, that’s it. It’s just your discernment. The Jesuit is not suggesting anything you are not already doing.
Sorry Ormond, I was being sarcastic, because anyone can discern anything, so why even belong to a church???
 
The Holy Spirit gets blamed for a lot of errors. No matter how wrongly I may discern, I can still attribute it to the Holy Spirit. But that just leads to a multitude of contradictory truths.
 
Wow, how truly sad that you just decide on your own to “forget the rest of it”.
Everybody decides on their own how to relate to these issues. I didn’t invent it!
“It” being the Bible, as well as the Church that Jesus founded.
Are you aware that Jesus never once led a church construction fund drive? Did you know he never wore fancy garments to announce his elevated status to the world? Did you know that Jesus showed no interest whatsoever in building a global real estate empire? Did you know that Jesus never even wrote anything down? Did you know the word “Catholic” was never uttered by Jesus and does not appear anywhere in the Bible even once?
But you never responded to my request for an elaboration on what you mean by your religion being “human”.
I explained it in detail, and you ignored the explanation.
What’s your religious affiliation? Do you believe in God? If so, do you believe that Jesus is God?
I don’t believe in belief. I believe in love.
I’m not going to bother having a conversation with someone who presents a complete caricature of what it means to be a Catholic Christian,
This is agreeable to me. Peace be with you.
 
Sorry Ormond, I was being sarcastic, because anyone can discern anything, so why even belong to a church???
I don’t belong to a church. My situation only, not a prescription for everyone everywhere.
 
It seems interesting to recall that Jesus had the choice to be a loyal traditionalist within the religious community in which he was raised. Jesus could have chosen to be faithful and obedient to the doctrines of the Jewish clergy which had preceded his birth by a thousand years. Jesus could have followed the rules set out for him by his elders, colored within the lines of the group consensus of his time, and not rocked the boat in any way. Jesus could have been a “nice guy”, someone who didn’t say things that got people upset.

Instead Jesus choose to chart his own course, kick over the apple cart, be a revolutionary, and say and do things that so outraged many of his neighbors that they wound up putting him to death.

Members above are selling tradition,conformity, obedience, authority worship, niceness, modesty, ceremony and adherence to the group consensus status quo.

Ok, your call, but um, doesn’t have much to do with Jesus folks.
 
After reading the full interview of what the Jesuit General had to say here, I have to say I find his words very disheartening. It sounds as if he’s completely embraced moral relativism. Fr. Dwight Longenecker made some good points:
This is astounding. Let’s be clear. While Fr Abascal thinks Jesus’ words are difficult to understand, Fr Abascal’s are easily understood. He is saying that we can’t really know what Jesus’ words were so it is all up for grabs.
Nobody recorded the Resurrection, so how do we know that happened? We know what the meaning behind Scripture is because of our faith in the Church that Jesus founded. I also think it’s ridiculous that he doesn’t like the word “doctrine”. How sad. The definition of doctrine is literally “the knowledge imparted by teaching.” If Christ is our teacher, and if we are to emulate him, how could we dislike these teachings? The obvious answer would be concupiscence, but Fr. Abascal takes it a step farther and makes it a dirty word, which is absolutely scandalous to come from a priest in such a position as he is in. It’s as if it’s no longer “politically correct” to mention the word “doctrine”.

I think it’s interesting to note, that if “discernment” is the end all, be all, and there is no absolute truth, why are we only seemingly drawing the line at issues of sexuality?

There was a blurb on Lifenews today which was describing an article that was in Esquire Magazine a couple years ago. It tells the story of conversion of a Dr. Willie Parker, a Christian who left his job as a obstetrician to become a full time abortionist. He has discerned, against timeless Christian doctrine, that he is helping people by carrying out abortions. He is doing abortions not in spite of being Christian, but becauseDr. Parker: “And I address this [that some women are torn up by the fact that they don’t believe in abortion but they’re about to have one] because if those people are getting inside your head and you’re feeling conflicted, if you are not comfortable with what you’re doing, you may be processing this far longer than you need to. There’s nothing immoral about taking care of your health. There’s nothing immoral about making the decision to not become a parent before you want to become one. There’s more than one way to understand religion and spirituality and God. I do have belief in God. That’s why I do this work. My belief in God tells me that the most important thing you can do for another human being is help them in their time of need.”

…]

“The protesters say they’re opposed to abortion because they’re Christian,” Parker says. “It’s hard for them to accept that I do abortions because I’m a Christian.”

Parker obviously doesn’t believe that both the human being that is the mother, and the human being in the womb should be helped. His outlook on what a human being is:
When she [a patient] leaves, he points to the screen. Triplets. He’s seen lots of twins but never triplets. Some women think multiples are more special, so they get more upset.
After another scan, he points at the tiny blob on the screen. Eighty-nine percent of pregnancies are that small or smaller at termination. “That’s what we’re fighting about. To people against abortion, that’s a person.”
"When the triplets arrive, he points out one sac, two sacs, three sacs.
But then he brings in one that’s nine weeks and there’s a fetus. He points out the scattered parts. “There’s the skull, what is going to be the fetal skull. And there are the eye sockets.”
Floating near the top of the dish are two tiny arms with two tiny hands.
Parker continues to examine the tissue. He points to a black spot the size of a pencil tip. “That’s an eye.”
“That black spot?”
“That black spot is an eye. And here’s the umbilical cord.”…
Growing reflective, he continues to study the parts. “The reality is we’ve disrupted a life process. There are recognizable fetal parts, right? The capacity for this development is always there. After five weeks, you just have the sac. At six weeks, you have a fetal pole with cardiac activity. At seven to eight weeks, it’s just a larger fetal pole. By nine, it’s differentiated.”
But here’s the vital question: Is it a person? Not by the standards of the law, he says.
So how would Fr. Abascal address this concrete situation? Parker is a Christian. Christian doctrine since the beginning has taught that the killing of children is morally wrong. Parker has discerned that abortion is not morally wrong; it is actually a righteous thing to do because he believe the murder of the child in utero is helping the mother. Should he continue to follow his conscience? Would Fr. Abascal direct Parker in this situation to “recognize the priority of [his] personal conscience” (as Fr. Abascal noted in his interview) in the same way he would a person who while living in a state of adultery, believes they are doing nothing wrong by living more uxorio and discern they can receive the Eucharist?

If he does not direct Parker to follow his conscience, and exhorts him to stop murdering a human being in its earliest stages of development, how can Fr. Abascal be logically consistent in saying that all doctrine and teaching of the Church is up for debate? That there are no such things as moral absolutes? I feel like the Church is entering a very trying time. We should all continue to pray for our leaders and clergy.
 
Everybody decides on their own how to relate to these issues. I didn’t invent it!
And if you believe that each person’s interpretation on how to relate the these issues are correct, even the ones that contradict each other, then you are a moral relativist. Since I submit that there is such thing as absolute truth, I reject the notion that everyone’s conclusions are valid or right.
Are you aware that Jesus never once led a church construction fund drive? Did you know he never wore fancy garments to announce his elevated status to the world? Did you know that Jesus showed no interest whatsoever in building a global real estate empire? Did you know that Jesus never even wrote anything down? Did you know the word “Catholic” was never uttered by Jesus and does not appear anywhere in the Bible even once?
Again, a caricature. And a bad one at that. So many falsehoods here that I won’t take the time to refute. Again, if you want to have a real conversation, pick a talking point and I’ll be glad to discuss it with you.
I explained it in detail, and you ignored the explanation.
No, it just doesn’t really make any sense. How is being human a religion?
I don’t believe in belief. I believe in love.
You don’t believe in belief. Yet you have a belief, and that belief is love.

Wow.

Now you’re just contradicting yourself. You evaded my question and couldn’t simply answer yes or no if you believed in God or not. You have me at a disadvantage. You know my beliefs; I don’t know yours. In turn, you give a non-answer, and can’t even define what love is.
This is agreeable to me. Peace be with you.
That’s your call. If you ever want to have a good discussion about the Catholic faith without all the invective and insulting claims you keep peppering in, and how many of us not only “talk the talk” but “walk the walk”, as you say, send me a PM.
 
Capitulating to the ways of the world requires no miracle. Literally ANYBODY but Jesus could do it without breaking a sweat. Easy peasy. Even the blessed virgin. If that’s your definition of a miracle then you are easily impressed. 😛
The Pope is not capitulating to the world. He is leading the Church, for those that want to follow. It is not about being “impressed.” It is about doing what is right.
 
I love Ignatian spirituality. I try to live it out in my own life, to the best of my ability and vocation, being a weak sinner that I am. So when the Superior of the Jesuits talks about something, I do read and listen (and discern) even the message he is trying to convey. I get the concern everyone has about doctrine right now. With the time we live in trying to shake the sandbox throws dust in the air and makes a mess (hagan lio).

Anyways, to the superior, there is nothing technically wrong with what he is saying. What he is trying to do is say that a) it is truly important to make sure we know what Jesus meant when he said what he said b) that sometimes we might throw into question a once assured interpretation of Christ in order to reinvestigate if that is indeed what he meant. c) that we have to discern with the Spirit the truth. This is Ignatian. Here is my caveat though that the Superior is not mentioning though. The Spirit can never act contrary to the Church. What the Church infallibly teaches is handed to us from Christ himself. That same Spirit convincts our hearts to that teaching. So, should we discern what is true and godly in all situations? Absolutely! We then will need to consider what the Church has to say on a topic and add that to our discernment. If people discern something different that what the Church teaches, they certainly cannot act on a whim. They must speak to a pastor or spiritual director. As a good Ignatian would know, it isn’t just God who talks to us- but the devil as well. We must discern which voice is speaking. So what the superior general has to say is not heretical, it is just neglecting to mention more nuance.
 
Doctrine does not change, but our understanding of doctrine evolves by Magisterial discussion and discernment under the guidance of the Holy Spirit. Isn’t that the way the Church has done it for the past 2000+ years? I don’t see what Father is saying that is different from what the Church has always done.

Is there another way to look at it?
I don’t think what Father is saying is technically wrong, but I fear the tone.

He doesn’t say that the Magisterium of the Church should use discernment , he seems to be implying that individual Catholics should use discernment.

The Jesuits have a tendency to think that everyone is able to correctly handle Ignatian Spirituality, which I would argue that not everyone is ready for that. Ignatian Spirituality can lead to bad places if one isn’t firmly rooted in Catholic teaching.

God Bless.
 
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