Jesus ate lamb so that we could eat hamburgers, or not?

[4elise]

Point is, it is not a widespread phenomena. It happens; so do bank robberies. Those don’t indicate an entire system is corrupt.

If you choose not to eat mine, that’s your choice to make, but it is a lie (that would be a sin, remember) to cast all of us into one bin based on the very few, lowest, most vile people in the industry.

Thanks for reading.

Thanks for posting this…

I do believe that you and others who raise cattle can and do strive to do so in a way that cares for the animals in the best possible way - because as you say - your very livelyhood depends on it.

So, as you said - lumping all vegans or all cattlemen into one group would be wrong.

But most of us who shop at supermarkets, or go to fast food chains, have no way of knowing if the meat comes from your ranch or the most vile people in the industry. With no way to know this contributes to the choice to eliminate beef from the diet for some — but like most people it isn’t the only reason.

 

[4elise]

H1N1 is a scientific term. There are 45 possible protein combinations to the flu virus capsule, from H1N1 to H9N5 and everything in between. The pork industry isn’t the one who named it. H1N1 is not exclusive to swine, either.

Diseases are not limited to meat consumption. E. Coli was found in spinach in California just last summer which spread across the country, and there are many cases each year. To site the health risk due to contamination isn’t a strong point, since instances occur in both plant food and meat at about the same rate. To site the health risk due to its normal effects on the body when comparing the two is a strong point. I disagree with people who think that animals farms are bad for the environment. I think people need to get out more if that is their view.

The E.Coli contamination of spinach was attributed to run off from factory farms americanchronicle.com/articles/view/14251

The recent outbreak of E. coli contaminated spinach, which killed several people and sickened at least 189 others in 25 states, has many people scratching their heads in bewilderment. After all, E. coli is typically found in ground beef and other animal products, not vegetables. But many experts believe the mass production of farmed animals has led to the outbreak of tainted spinach, just as it has led to avian flu and mad cow disease.

The Environmental Protection Agency has reported that livestock operations pollute our waterways more than all other industrial sources combined. Animals raised for food produce approximately 130 times as much excrement as the entire human population—87,000 pounds per second. The waste often seeps into our waterways, killing marine life and sickening people.

 

[Marfran]

You won’t find any support for this because it is a slur made up to discredit the Church. That is why I found it so odd to be posted by a Catholic.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=250467&highlight=history+of+friday+abstinence

RE: Origin of Lenten Friday Fish Frys.

OK, Indy, I have a headache from trying to get to the origin here, the actual documented history. I have no idea why this is so difficult. If it is untrue then there would be an accurate account somewhere, and if it is true you would think there would also be an accurate account. It does seem to factor into a lot of discussion and you can find questions about this everywhere. Lots of people seem to have opinions, but I can’t seem to locate a historian who has documented anything specific.

When I first mentioned this, I specifically said that I didn’t know if it was true. My child that attends a parochial school had mentioned this to me awhile back–so if this is a slur as you say, then I am surprised this was discussed in a parochial school. I think that a lot of Catholics do not know the complete and detailed history of all Catholic traditions.

I do believe that I uncovered the Pope that instituted the No Meat Friday in Lent rule, and that is Pope Nicholas I. It seems that different periods of history, and different cultural regions have practiced things a little differently.

Where I live (in the US) and in my parish, Lenten Fridays are big business for restaurants and Catholics flock in droves for fish frys and all you can eat seafood buffets. I think this is kind of warped and completely undermines the idea of*** sacrifice***.

saint-mike.org/Apologetics/qa/Answers/Church_History/h010312Dawn.html

 

[Mary_Gail_36]

RE: Origin of Lenten Friday Fish Frys.

OK, Indy, I have a headache from trying to get to the origin here, the actual documented history. I have no idea why this is so difficult. If it is untrue then there would be an accurate account somewhere, and if it is true you would think there would also be an accurate account. It does seem to factor into a lot of discussion and you can find questions about this everywhere. Lots of people seem to have opinions, but I can’t seem to locate a historian who has documented anything specific.

When I first mentioned this, I specifically said that I didn’t know if it was true. My child that attends a parochial school had mentioned this to me awhile back–so if this is a slur as you say, then I am surprised this was discussed in a parochial school. I think that a lot of Catholics do not know the complete and detailed history of all Catholic traditions.

I do believe that I uncovered the Pope that instituted the No Meat Friday in Lent rule, and that is Pope Nicholas I. It seems that different periods of history, and different cultural regions have practiced things a little differently.

Where I live (in the US) and in my parish, Lenten Fridays are big business for restaurants and Catholics flock in droves for fish frys and all you can eat seafood buffets. I think this is kind of warped and completely undermines the idea of*** sacrifice***.
saint-mike.org/Apologetics/qa/Answers/Church_History/h010312Dawn.html

I’m sort of curious on how you know that Lenten Friday’s are a big business for restaurants, and it is due to Catholics? My FIL owns a restaurant, and I don’t think he conducts a poll when the people order food on Fridays to find out their religious beliefs. Unless you’ve done the demographics, that statement borders on sterotypical. Again, we are required to abstain from meat…we are not required to eat seafood.

 

[Marfran]

I’m sort of curious on how you know that Lenten Friday’s are a big business for restaurants, and it is due to Catholics? My FIL owns a restaurant, and I don’t think he conducts a poll when the people order food on Fridays to find out their religious beliefs. Unless you’ve done the demographics, that statement borders on sterotypical. Again, we are required to abstain from meat…we are not required to eat seafood.

In my community there are ads from all the restaurants in the food section of the paper trying to lure customers to*** Lenten fish frys and other Lenten ***seafood offerings. Many specifically use the word ***Lenten ***in their copy. Restaurants even post big signs in their windows. There was even a radio show that would go around and sample fish frys on Fridays (in Lent) and report the highlights and rank the food. The restaurants would all try to outdo one another. Finally, finally, one reporter made a comment about how this all didn’t seem to be quite right…

Are you saying that in your community this does not occur? Friday Fish Frys in Lent are big social occasions here. My entire family is Catholic–and the younger ones will make a special effort to get the elderly ones, who hardly ever get out socially, to a Lenten Friday fish fry. Sometimes even the churches put on big fish fry extravaganzas in Lent. (And everyone thinks I’m nuts because I say Fridays in Lent are about sacrifice, not having your best all-you-can eat meal.) We have to get Great Aunt Agnes and Great Grandma Celeste out to a Friday fish fry… And instead of cooking, all the cooks get the night off for a tasty fish fry at a local establishment. I was surprised this last Lent, to hear a weather announcer actually tell viewers that the rain would not fall until after they got back from their fish fry.

We are required to abstain from meat, we are not required to eat seafood–but that’s what a lot of people do, and they enjoy their often “superior” meals, and often in the form of an all-you-can eat buffet. I think that the whole purpose is lost. It’s kind of like the whole purpose of Christmas gets lost in the gift giving, holiday shopping, cookie baking and Santa Claus thing.

 

[Marfran]

Ok–I’m going to stop trying to find info on the history of Lent–this is just taking too much time. I did find this interesting essay:

*"Fasting, then, is abstinence from such
nourishments as these, which were permitted for the support of
bodily strength. And firstly, ****it consists in abstinence from
flesh-meat, because this food was given to man by God out of
condescension to his weakness, and not as one absolutely essential
for the maintenance of life. ***Its privation, greater or less
according to the regulations of the Church, is essential to the
very notion of fasting. For many centuries eggs and milk-meats
were not allowed, because they come under the class of animal
food; even to this day they are forbidden in the eastern
Churches."

ewtn.com/library/LITURGY/HISTLENT.TXT

 

[Mary_Gail_36]

In my community there are ads from all the restaurants in the food section of the paper trying to lure customers to*** Lenten fish frys and other Lenten ***seafood offerings. Many specifically use the word ***Lenten ***in their copy. Restaurants even post big signs in their windows. There was even a radio show that would go around and sample fish frys on Fridays (in Lent) and report the highlights and rank the food. The restaurants would all try to outdo one another. Finally, finally, one reporter made a comment about how this all didn’t seem to be quite right…

Are you saying that in your community this does not occur? Friday Fish Frys in Lent are big social occasions here. My entire family is Catholic–and the younger ones will make a special effort to get the elderly ones, who hardly ever get out socially, to a Lenten Friday fish fry. Sometimes even the churches put on big fish fry extravaganzas in Lent. (And everyone thinks I’m nuts because I say Fridays in Lent are about sacrifice, not having your best all-you-can eat meal.) We have to get Great Aunt Agnes and Great Grandma Celeste out to a Friday fish fry… And instead of cooking, all the cooks get the night off for a tasty fish fry at a local establishment. I was surprised this last Lent, to hear a weather announcer actually tell viewers that the rain would not fall until after they got back from their fish fry.

We are required to abstain from meat, we are not required to eat seafood–but that’s what a lot of people do, and they enjoy their often “superior” meals, and often in the form of an all-you-can eat buffet. I think that the whole purpose is lost. It’s kind of like the whole purpose of Christmas gets lost in the gift giving, holiday shopping, cookie baking and Santa Claus thing.

You know, not just Catholics celebrate Lent. Fish filet is quite affordable, not a luxury item. You aren’t providing any demographical links…you shouldn"t imply all Catholics or most Catholics or many Catholics are gorging themselves on fish fries every friday during Lent:shrug:

 

[Marfran]

You know, not just Catholics celebrate Lent. Fish filet is quite affordable, not a luxury item. You aren’t providing any demographical links…you shouldn"t imply all Catholics or most Catholics or many Catholics are gorging themselves on fish fries every friday during Lent:shrug:

usatoday.com/news/religion/2009-03-21-catholic-lent_N.htm

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fish_fry

 

[Mary_Gail_36]

You know, not just Catholics celebrate Lent. Fish filet is quite affordable, not a luxury item. You aren’t providing any demographical links…you shouldn"t imply all Catholics or most Catholics or many Catholics are gorging themselves on fish fries every friday during Lent:shrug:

 

[Marfran]

You know, not just Catholics celebrate Lent. Fish filet is quite affordable, not a luxury item. You aren’t providing any demographical links…you shouldn"t imply all Catholics or most Catholics or many Catholics are gorging themselves on fish fries every friday during Lent:shrug:

And hamburger is cheaper than fish filet, and tofu is cheaper than both. So what are you saying? The cost of the replacement of your meat on Friday is the key of the issue? Or is it sacrifice and deprivation? Should anyone even go to a restaurant on a Lenten Friday? If you are eating fish filet and it is not an enjoyable meal, then you would be sacrificing. What about all the Catholics eating the all-you-can-eat fish fries? What about all the Church sponsored Friday fish fries??? What about just eating a plain bowl of rice???

And where I live they wash the fish fries down with beer.

I don’t eat meat or fish, but it bothers me that the whole idea of sacrifice is lost to the newer tradition of the all-you-can-eat Friday Fish Fry (and it’s not about the fish).

How did we get on this tanget?? I apologize to JoeJ for running his thread off in a different direction.

 

[Mary_Gail_36]

And hamburger is cheaper than fish filet, and tofu is cheaper than both. So what are you saying? The cost of the replacement of your meat on Friday is the key of the issue? Or is it sacrifice and deprivation? Should anyone even go to a restaurant on a Lenten Friday? If you are eating fish filet and it is not an enjoyable meal, then you would be sacrificing. What about all the Catholics eating the all-you-can-eat fish fries? What about all the Church sponsored Friday fish fries??? What about just eating a plain bowl of rice???

And where I live they wash the fish fries down with beer.

I don’t eat meat or fish, but it bothers me that the whole idea of sacrifice is lost to the newer tradition of the all-you-can-eat Friday Fish Fry (and it’s not about the fish).

How did we get on this tanget?? I apologize to JoeJ for running his thread off in a different direction.

Perhaps it got off course by your allegations that: (paraphrasing)

1: Catholics abstain from meat to fund the fishing industry…
2. Catholics are not really sacrificing by not eating meat. They actually give restaurants lots of business by eating luxurious seafoods on Fridays.
3. When faced with a rebutal, that restaurant owners cannot possibly know the religious beliefs of their patrons, you attempted to prove your point by pointing at Parish Fish Fries …claiming that the parishoners are eating too much, and drinking too much, and it isn’t a sacrifice because, Catholics need stay home on Fridays and not eat out.

Until the Holy See instructs us that meat consumption is wrong, I will consume meat. You are absolutely free to eat whatever you like, if you enjoy Tofu, God Bless you.

It was nice debating with you. I’m not particpating anymore.

 

[bigfootbob]

And hamburger is cheaper than fish filet, and tofu is cheaper than both. So what are you saying? The cost of the replacement of your meat on Friday is the key of the issue? Or is it sacrifice and deprivation? Should anyone even go to a restaurant on a Lenten Friday? If you are eating fish filet and it is not an enjoyable meal, then you would be sacrificing. What about all the Catholics eating the all-you-can-eat fish fries? What about all the Church sponsored Friday fish fries??? What about just eating a plain bowl of rice???

And where I live they wash the fish fries down with beer.

I don’t eat meat or fish, but it bothers me that the whole idea of sacrifice is lost to the newer tradition of the all-you-can-eat Friday Fish Fry (and it’s not about the fish).

How did we get on this tanget?? I apologize to JoeJ for running his thread off in a different direction.

Not to be disrespectful or anything, but I was just wondering. What do you Catholic vegetarians/vegans do instead of giving up meat on fridays? Anything?

Fish fries during lent, I do not agree with because you are supposed to making a sacrifice, and fried fish taste good! Baked fish is a different story, though…

 

[po18guy]

not that this has anything whatever to do with social justice, but there is an equally vocal contingent who claim a diet of natural grass fed meat, devoid of grain, is the only healthful diet for human beings, the diet programed into their DNA, and that grain-based agriculture is responsible for the degenerative diseases of civilizations based on it. They have equally compelling science and studies, and are just as emotional, judgmental, and dogmatic as are vegetarians defending their point of view.
texasgrassfedbeef.com/science_underscores_grassfed_meats.htm

Just because I happen to believe one side or the other does not make it objectively true. Neither does it make my opinion a matter of theology.

Amen! But, we soon see the difficulty encountered in expressing the concept of prudential judgment to true ideologues.

 

[athansor]

Not to be disrespectful or anything, but I was just wondering. What do you Catholic vegetarians/vegans do instead of giving up meat on fridays? Anything?

Fish fries during lent, I do not agree with because you are supposed to making a sacrifice, and fried fish taste good! Baked fish is a different story, though…

I usually give up sweets during all of Lent, and on Fridays have something light and simple. I remember hearing once that the word lentil came from the notion that it was a popular simple thing to eat during lent. I don’t know if that’s true, but a simple lentil dish is a good Friday meal during Lent.

 

[4elise]

Ok–I’m going to stop trying to find info on the history of Lent–this is just taking too much time. I did find this interesting essay:

"Fasting, then, is abstinence from such
nourishments as these, which were permitted for the support of
bodily strength. And firstly, it consists in abstinence from
flesh-meat, because this food was given to man by God out of
condescension to his weakness, and n**ot as one absolutely essential
for the maintenance of life. **Its privation, greater or less
according to the regulations of the Church, is essential to the
very notion of fasting. For many centuries eggs and milk-meats
were not allowed, because they come under the class of animal
food; even to this day they are forbidden in the eastern
Churches."

ewtn.com/library/LITURGY/HISTLENT.TXT

Ok… this made me sit up!

 

[4elise]

Not to be disrespectful or anything, but I was just wondering. What do you Catholic vegetarians/vegans do instead of giving up meat on fridays? Anything?

Fish fries during lent, I do not agree with because you are supposed to making a sacrifice, and fried fish taste good! Baked fish is a different story, though…

Thanks for the respect… always appreciated!
I know - I’ve always thought that it was a bit ‘off’ about the fish frys - even when I ate fish…they always left me wondering - our KoC puts this on in our parish and apparently makes loads of money each Lent - they have salmon, and other expensive fish with complete dinners etc… the parish we recently joined does a simple soup to raise money for the food pantry - seems more in keeping with the spirit of the sacrifice.

To each is own sacrifice I guess but as one vegan - I give up coffee usually - and try to eat simply - because I’m a great vegan cook (all humility aside) so we just have a peanut butter sandwich or something like that.

 

[royal_archer]

RE: Origin of Lenten Friday Fish Frys.

OK, Indy, I have a headache from trying to get to the origin here, the actual documented history. I have no idea why this is so difficult. If it is untrue then there would be an accurate account somewhere, and if it is true you would think there would also be an accurate account. It does seem to factor into a lot of discussion and you can find questions about this everywhere. Lots of people seem to have opinions, but I can’t seem to locate a historian who has documented anything specific.

When I first mentioned this, I specifically said that I didn’t know if it was true. My child that attends a parochial school had mentioned this to me awhile back–so if this is a slur as you say, then I am surprised this was discussed in a parochial school. I think that a lot of Catholics do not know the complete and detailed history of all Catholic traditions.

I do believe that I uncovered the Pope that instituted the No Meat Friday in Lent rule, and that is Pope Nicholas I. It seems that different periods of history, and different cultural regions have practiced things a little differently.

Where I live (in the US) and in my parish, Lenten Fridays are big business for restaurants and Catholics flock in droves for fish frys and all you can eat seafood buffets. I think this is kind of warped and completely undermines the idea of*** sacrifice***.

saint-mike.org/Apologetics/qa/Answers/Church_History/h010312Dawn.html

Have you seen the price of fish dinners? The cost itself could almost be considered a sacrifice. However, the sacrifice is meant to (name removed by moderator)art consideration for the sacrifice of Jesus. A break in routine that raises awareness might be better than a sacrifice where the meaning is lost.

 

[E.E.N.S]

Is mass cruelty to animals irrelevant?

Jesus caused a whole herd of pigs to be cast into the sea.

 

[4elise]

Jesus caused a whole herd of pigs to be cast into the sea.

well not exactly:

**Matthew 8:22-23 **/ When he came to the other side, to the territory of the Gadarenes, two demoniacs who were coming from the tombs met him. They were so savage that no one could travel by that road.They cried out, "What have you to do with us, Son of God? Have you Some distance away a herd of many swine was feeding. The demons pleaded with him, “If you drive us out, send us into the herd of swine.” And he said to them, “Go then!” They came out and entered the swine, and the whole herd rushed down the steep bank into the sea where they drowned.

 

[E.E.N.S]

well not exactly:

Doesn’t change my point.