Jesus Can Be Moved: What Does This Say about the Fixedness of His Will?

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No, Diana, you are not stating a contradiction because you are saying that God’s will doesn’t change. Thanks for your help with this.
 
jonathanjlinn said:
Glad you found it helpful. I read a book: The Secrets, Chastisement, and Triumph of the Two Hearts of Jesus and Mary - by Kelly Bowring (He’s not a priest but is very well educated with the full line up of ecclesiastical degrees)

The book itself was okay as it more or less was a rehashing with commentary of a bunch of present day signs from heaven. The general theme had to do with this idea that by fasting and praying we can lighten the ‘wrath’ of God that will inevitably occur. I just tried to simplify the overriding idea as best as I could. In a sense, God’s will continues to be constant, but as someone else pointed out He will use all that we give Him to bring about the best means possible. Since I think it can be agreed less chastisement for humanity is better than more chastisement (assuming no souls are lost by choosing one over the other) then it makes sense from the human point of view that God does not desire to perform more chastisement - but His primary concern would still be salvation, so He must perform more chastisement because it is a form of Love (perhaps tough love) in order to save more souls if we do not do something more ourselves.

The ends are the same (salvation), but it seems we have the ability to change the means i.e. through prayer and fasting.
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Yes, Jonathan, I understand what you are saying. Thanks!
 
JohnJFarren said:
“HE REGRETTED THAT HE HAD MADE MAN ON THE EARTH” Genesis 6:6
NO! HE DID NOT!
My Dear Brothers and Sisters in Jesus Christ – 30 June 2011
Creation with all its becomings and changes does not ever make any change in God.
Code: 
Noah -- Abraham -- Moses -- Jonah > none of these Biblical stories, nor any other Biblical stories, mean that God ever changed His Eternal Decisions.  It is the *meaning* of these stories that matters, not the name of Abraham or Jonah or how old they were or anything else in the stories.  “The Spirit gives Life .. the letter kills.”

The mode or manner or style of these particular stories is anthropomorphic, that is, they depict God acting as we His creatures act .. *for the purpose of* having the audience, the people to whom they were originally addressed, understand them.  Those people could not possibly understand Einstein’s General Relativity .. nor were they prepared to understand that God cannot change.

Before Adam or Eve or any other human being was ever born .. God (Knows) Knew with absolute certainty every single choice that He would ever make in cooperation with and in response to every single choice, good or bad, that every single human being (or angel) who would ever exist would ever make.  There are not and cannot ever be any exceptions.

Human beings have real freedom of choice.  “Without Me .. you can do NOTHING!”  However, read this also, “Without Me .. you CAN do no-thing.” .. O yes, you CAN fail .. you CAN sin.  You don’t need Me for that.

For God to change would mean either to LOSE something -- and that is impossible .. or .. for God to GAIN something -- and that is impossible.
/////////////////////////
Code: 
A distinction must be made here between the One Will of the Trinity .. and the created human will of Jesus Christ, the Second Divine Person in His human nature.  Yet even here Jesus tells us, “I say nothing but what the Father has given me to say .. and I do nothing but what the Father has told me to do.”
I ask the Holy Spirit to Bless us all in our understandings.
Pray for me  …  John  (JohnJFarren)
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Thanks, John, for helping me to see that these Bible stories can be anthropomorphic. That helps me a lot to accept that God’s will is actually fixed. But when Our Lady of Hope from Pointmain says her son can be influenced what do you think she means?
 
I now see that God’s will is fixed but I’m not sure what Our Lady of Hope from Pointmain meant when she said her son allows himself to be influenced. Any help from you good folks out there? Does it mean our prayers and sacrifices can influence what he pernits or ordains to happen to us and others?
 
ready said:
Thanks for reponding, DPMartin.👍 Yes I see, God doesn’t change. But didn’t His will change for the stiff-necked Israelites when Moses interceded for them? Wasn’t He moved by Moses’ prayers? Can’t my fervent prayers influence God and help others who might presently be the object of His wrath? Thanks for your help with this!
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Ready:

Yes: but, He has always known what you would do and what Moses would do. His fixedness is a result of His Infinity, not a result of any inability. He is Infinite not only in every conceivable power, but also, in every conceivable magnitude.

God bless,
jd
 
JDaniel said:
Ready:

Yes: but, He has always known what you would do and what Moses would do. His fixedness is a result of His Infinity, not a result of any inability. He is Infinite not only in every conceivable power, but also, in every conceivable magnitude.

God bless,
jd
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Great point about God knowing what I and Moses would do. It really helps me! Now I understand that God’s will is fixed, but how do you interpret Our Lady of Hope from Pontmain’s statement that her Son allows himself to be influenced? In what respect do you think he allows himself to be influenced?
 
ready said:
Thanks, John, for helping me to see that these Bible stories can be anthropomorphic. That helps me a lot to accept that God’s will is actually fixed. But when Our Lady of Hope from Pointmain says her son can be influenced what do you think she means?
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Rready:

No one gets to the Father except by His Son; and, no one gets to the Son except by God’s Grace. It is said that God will not “waste” efficacious grace on any soul that He knows will squander it. The more graces we obtain for ourselves with the help of His (initial, called sufficient) grace, the better (ultimately).

The question is: How do we accomplish it? What is the ultimate (free) Gift we [His children] can ever receive? The gift of God’s Love? Now, what do you think He would expect us to do, fully understanding the meaning of that Love?

God bless,
jd
 
DPMartin said:
ready

thanks for the reply, hope this helps to clarify

Ex:33:13: Now therefore, I pray thee, if I have found grace in thy sight, shew me now thy way, that I may know thee, that I may find grace in thy sight: and consider that this nation is thy people.
14: And he said, My presence shall go with thee, and I will give thee rest.
15: And he said unto him, If thy presence go not with me, carry us not up hence.
16: For wherein shall it be known here that I and thy people have found grace in thy sight? is it not in that thou goest with us? so shall we be separated, I and thy people, from all the people that are upon the face of the earth.
17: And the LORD said unto Moses, I will do this thing also that thou hast spoken: for thou hast found grace in my sight, and I know thee by name.
18: And he said, I beseech thee, shew me thy glory.
19: And he said, I will make all my goodness pass before thee, and I will proclaim the name of the LORD before thee; and will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will shew mercy on whom I will shew mercy.

The important thing here is, though one has found Grace in the Presence of God, in that the Lord God knows him and his name, and would hear his case, as the Lord God did with Moses. That we like Moses accept that it is the Lord God’s judgement on who He shall be gracious, and will show mercy. Moses did not dispute this, for Moses already agreed that it is God who does this. This doesn’t mean that Moses’ intercessory prayer was not effective, but if one comes before the Mercy set, then one agrees to the Father’s Judgement.

Even Abraham respected this when he pursued the Lord for Mercy on whom the Lord would find righteous. Though the Lord and Abraham knew that it was Abraham’s Hope that the Lord would find Lot and Lot’s family righteous and deliver them.

It is said that it is God’s Will that all come unto Him. And it wouldn’t make sense that God makes man to destroy man. But man destroys himself with his own choices, which is certainly not God’s choice for man. God can intercede in the affaires of men, just as He did in the case with Israel, in the days of Moses. But those who love the things of God such as His Truth Way and Life or Wisdom Knowledge and Understanding, or Mercy Righteousness and Judgement. Love Him. Those who love that which is of God, love God. Just as Jesus said:

Jn:14:21: He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

Jn:16:27: For the Father himself loveth you, because ye have loved me, and have believed that I came out from God.
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Thanks, DPMartin, for the great quotes. This reminds me of St. Faustina’s diary. She was so very pleasing to God during her lifetime that he told her something like he couldn’t resist answering her every prayer. She was even able to hold back a major chastisement on Poland, if I am remembering correctly. Based on the life of St. Faustina couldn’t we argue that the more righteous and pleasing a person is in God’s eyes the more difficult it is for God not to be influenced? After all, God said he couldn’t deny St. Faustina what she asked of him because she was so pleasing to him. I know there aren’t may souls as pleasing to God as St. Faustina and our prayers won’t necessarily have the same impact as her powerful prayers, but doesn’t her life show us how God is influenced? Isn’t he influenced by those souls who are most pleasing to him, like Moses and David? I also heard that a great number of souls praying for someone or something has a great influence on the Lord. When God is influenced by someone like Faustina or a group of a thousand people praying for the same thing and grants them what he otherwise wouldn’t have granted does this mean he allows himself to be influenced without his will being touched? Please help!
 
ready said:
Great point about God knowing what I and Moses would do. It really helps me! Now I understand that God’s will is fixed, but how do you interpret Our Lady of Hope from Pontmain’s statement that her Son allows himself to be influenced? In what respect do you think he allows himself to be influenced?
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Ready:

He is influenced in the same sense that God does not waste His graces on those that He knows will squander it. Now, what would a person (soul) have to do to squander God’s graces? Perhaps such a person might disregard them, e.g., treat them shabbily? Perhaps such a person might not willingly share them? By consistently maintaining our Love for God, and all others, by our actions (not merely our Faiths), we are doing everything possible to entice * God to maintain His steady Love for each of us. We can’t fake an earnest desire to be with Him when we constantly show our Love for Him, and all others, can we?

I mean, even if one were to start out by faking, or rather, feigning, love for God, after many years the outward activity, by us, will change us. And, he who does not regularly and steadily display his love for God, and all others, is known to God even before his birth.

God bless,
jd*
 
JDaniel said:
Ready:

He is influenced in the same sense that God does not waste His graces on those that He knows will squander it. Now, what would a person (soul) have to do to squander God’s graces? Perhaps such a person might disregard them, e.g., treat them shabbily? Perhaps such a person might not willingly share them? By consistently maintaining our Love for God, and all others, by our actions (not merely our Faiths), we are doing everything possible to entice * God to maintain His steady Love for each of us. We can’t fake an earnest desire to be with Him when we constantly show* our Love for Him, and all others, can we?

I mean, even if one were to start out by faking, or rather, feigning, love for God, after many years the outward activity, by us, will change us. And, he who does not regularly and steadily display his love for God, and all others, is known to God even before his birth.

God bless,
jd

Yes, I see! Thanks!
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ready said:
Thanks, DPMartin, for the great quotes. This reminds me of St. Faustina’s diary. She was so very pleasing to God during her lifetime that he told her something like he couldn’t resist answering her every prayer. She was even able to hold back a major chastisement on Poland, if I am remembering correctly. Based on the life of St. Faustina couldn’t we argue that the more righteous and pleasing a person is in God’s eyes the more difficult it is for God not to be influenced? After all, God said he couldn’t deny St. Faustina what she asked of him because she was so pleasing to him. I know there aren’t may souls as pleasing to God as St. Faustina and our prayers won’t necessarily have the same impact as her powerful prayers, but doesn’t her life show us how God is influenced? Isn’t he influenced by those souls who are most pleasing to him, like Moses and David? I also heard that a great number of souls praying for someone or something has a great influence on the Lord. When God is influenced by someone like Faustina or a group of a thousand people praying for the same thing and grants them what he otherwise wouldn’t have granted does this mean he allows himself to be influenced without his will being touched? Please help!
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ready
thanks for the reply

It is said by Peter that all good things are from on High. And it said in Rabbinical circles that it is through the penitent that the Blessings of Heaven come into the world. If thy requests are unto the Father, through the Son, in His Holy Presence, be Mercy and Forgiveness for the sons of men, then why should it be denied?
 
DPMartin said:
ready
thanks for the reply

It is said by Peter that all good things are from on High. And it said in Rabbinical circles that it is through the penitent that the Blessings of Heaven come into the world. If thy requests are unto the Father, through the Son, in His Holy Presence, be Mercy and Forgiveness for the sons of men, then why should it be denied?
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Yes, why should it be denied?🙂 Thanks, DPMartin!
 
JohnJFarren said:
“HE REGRETTED THAT HE HAD MADE MAN ON THE EARTH” Genesis 6:6
NO! HE DID NOT!
My Dear Brothers and Sisters in Jesus Christ – 30 June 2011
Creation with all its becomings and changes does not ever make any change in God.
Code: 
Noah -- Abraham -- Moses -- Jonah > none of these Biblical stories, nor any other Biblical stories, mean that God ever changed His Eternal Decisions.  It is the *meaning* of these stories that matters, not the name of Abraham or Jonah or how old they were or anything else in the stories.  “The Spirit gives Life .. the letter kills.”

The mode or manner or style of these particular stories is anthropomorphic, that is, they depict God acting as we His creatures act .. *for the purpose of* having the audience, the people to whom they were originally addressed, understand them.  Those people could not possibly understand Einstein’s General Relativity .. nor were they prepared to understand that God cannot change.

Before Adam or Eve or any other human being was ever born .. God (Knows) Knew with absolute certainty every single choice that He would ever make in cooperation with and in response to every single choice, good or bad, that every single human being (or angel) who would ever exist would ever make.  There are not and cannot ever be any exceptions.

Human beings have real freedom of choice.  “Without Me .. you can do NOTHING!”  However, read this also, “Without Me .. you CAN do no-thing.” .. O yes, you CAN fail .. you CAN sin.  You don’t need Me for that.

For God to change would mean either to LOSE something -- and that is impossible .. or .. for God to GAIN something -- and that is impossible.
/////////////////////////
Code: 
A distinction must be made here between the One Will of the Trinity .. and the created human will of Jesus Christ, the Second Divine Person in His human nature.  Yet even here Jesus tells us, “I say nothing but what the Father has given me to say .. and I do nothing but what the Father has told me to do.”
I ask the Holy Spirit to Bless us all in our understandings.
Pray for me  …  John  (JohnJFarren)
Click to expand...
JohnJFarren

Maybe it could be said that it is the way of the world to make God the Father regret He made human existence, but it is the Way of the Lord Jesus Christ to make the Father pleased that He made humane existence.
 
DPMartin said:
JohnJFarren

Maybe it could be said that it is the way of the world to make God the Father regret He made human existence, but it is the Way of the Lord Jesus Christ to make the Father pleased that He made humane existence.
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DPM:

No doubt! Adam and Eve did not (or, could not) exhibit true filial love for God, their Father, so Jesus was sent to show us the Way.

God bless,
jd
 
JDaniel said:
DPM:

No doubt! Adam and Eve did not (or, could not) exhibit true filial love for God, their Father, so Jesus was sent to show us the Way.

God bless,
jd
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JD

thanks for the reply

After my wife read that same statement she said; why all the questions, it is done, if God don’t like something He erases it. I laughed at first, but after thinking about it its true.

If you think about the process of Transformation in Christ, or the new man that replaces the old man (as Paul taught) and new wine is not put in old bottles. Or even Israel in the days of Moses. Her statement is absolutely true. The Holy Ghost doesn’t coexist with what is of Adam and Eve (guilt shame and blame). But the Presence of God does coexist with that which is of Jesus Christ (His Word). Thus recreating the man in the Son of man, from with in the man, so that man can coexist with the Father. In the new man made, that lives forever…
 
ready said:
I read that Jesus can be moved. I read this in an approved appariton to some children but I can’t remember which apparition. The words “My son can be moved” or “I [Jesus] can be moved” were written in French in a vision beneath some image. The people who heard this from the children thought the children read the word “moved” wrong, but they didn’t. Does anybody know which apparition this is? I know it’s not the apparition of Lourdes or Rue de Bac. Does this mean that God’s will can be changed depending on us: depending on our prayers and repentance? Didn’t God change his mind about destroying the Israelites after Moses pleaded with him? I know God could keep from chastising people if they would only pray: I read the Rwandan massacre could have been avoided if the people only prayed the Rosary, like our Lady had requested of them. I know the Ninevites weren’t destroyed as God had first willed for them because they repented and put on sackcloth and ashes. Does this all mean that God’s will for us is not actually fixed but is determined by how we pray and act? Thanks for any help with this one! Peace!
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I have only scanned the posts here so forgive me if this has been said before.

Is the apparition you are referring to the apparition at Fatima by any chance? The only apparitions of Our Lady I know of that are officially recognized by the Church are: Lourdes, Knock, Guadalupe and Fatima. If there are any others I stand corrected. It was at Fatima she appeared to three children.
 
minkymurph said:
I have only scanned the posts here so forgive me if this has been said before.

Is the apparition you are referring to the apparition at Fatima by any chance? The only apparitions of Our Lady I know of that are officially recognized by the Church are: Lourdes, Knock, Guadalupe and Fatima. If there are any others I stand corrected. It was at Fatima she appeared to three children.
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Hi, minkymurph! No, there are other approved apparitions, including Akita, Kibeho, etc…
 
minkymurph said:
Really? I didn’t know of them, I’m glad you posted. Can you tell me more?
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Well, Akita is in Japan and Kibeho is in Rwanda. In the apparition of Akita, our Lady gave the world a warning of a major chastisement to come if people do not amend their lives. I believe these apparitions took place in the '70’s. Our Lady asked the Rwandans to pray the Rosary to keep them from a massacre that eventually was visited upon them. The massacre took place in the '70’s or '80’s. (The people obviously hadn’t heeded our Lady’s warning to pray the Rosary.)

The best thing you could do for information on these apparitions is to do a computer search because I can’t really remember that much about them. I do remember that the Kibeho apparition involves a critic who didn’t believe in the apparitions and one day came to have apparitions with the visionary as well. I hope you find some good information about these apparitions online. Peace and God bless!
 
JohnJFarren said:
Code: 
Noah -- Abraham -- Moses -- Jonah > none of these Biblical stories, nor any other Biblical stories, mean that God ever changed His Eternal Decisions.  It is the *meaning* of these stories that matters, not the name of Abraham or Jonah or how old they were or anything else in the stories.  “The Spirit gives Life .. the letter kills.”

The mode or manner or style of these particular stories is anthropomorphic, that is, they depict God acting as we His creatures act .. *for the purpose of* having the audience, the people to whom they were originally addressed, understand them.  Those people could not possibly understand Einstein’s General Relativity .. nor were they prepared to understand that God cannot change.
Click to expand...
But God with **his own **words said that he changed his mind about destroying the Israelites. I don’t see how such a statement is anthropomorphic. It is not merely a statement about God told by men, but is a statement that comes right from the very mouth of God. God doesn’t lie either, so what he says is always true.
 
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