Jesus Christ - Bible Study

[Mickey]

The Orthodox are NOT Protestants. They are schismatic.

Well…you see…the Holy Orthodox Church believes that it is you who are the schismatic.

That is why I have asked that this thread not be mutated into a thread about Holy Orthodoxy vs Catholicism.

Don’t get me started.

 

[guanophore]

Your goal here is to converse in a charitable group Bible study.

I don’t think so, Mickey. That is the outward appearance that is he would like to present, but he is clear that he believes Catholics are wrong and feels the need to preach his gospel to us. He has said that, if we “search the scriptures together” he believes the Spirit of God will bring us to the knowledge of the truth found in them. If this happens, we will abandon the wrong teaching of “Rome” and adopt a more correct (reformed) position.

Yet you continue to veer off the path. Now you are interested in the Orthodox Church. Start a thread. I will be your number one contributor. Otherwise, please try to stay on track.

I also want to say that I have very much enjoyed reading you posts and appreciate your participation on the threads. I am going to go back and copy all those great passages of the fathers to a text file.

 

[Mickey]

I don’t think so, Mickey. That is the outward appearance that is he would like to present, but he is clear that he believes Catholics are wrong and feels the need to preach his gospel to us.

I have also begun to suspect this based on his posts.

I also want to say that I have very much enjoyed reading you posts and appreciate your participation on the threads. I am going to go back and copy all those great passages of the fathers to a text file.

Thank you my brother in Christ. I have also enjoyed your posts on this forum. Your posts are very clear and well informed. The Catholic and Orthodox Apostolic Churches have much in common!

 

[Our_Refuge]

BACK TO JOHN 1:41- 42
"He first found his own brother Simon and said to him, “We have found the Messiah” (which means Christ). 42 He brought him to Jesus. Jesus looked at him and said, “So you are Simon the son of John? You shall be called Cephas” (which means Peter [9]).

This is an amazing passage that gets overlooked. The** FIRST **time Jesus met Simon He called him “Cephas” which is the Greek way of saying the Aramaic word 'Kepha". which means Rock.

Jesus foreknew, of course, that He would choose SImon Peter to be the head of His Church. So the first time He met him he does not call him Simon but calls him Rock

Peter is truly the Rock upon which the Church was built.

Protestants tell me Jesus called him Rock in Matthew 16:18 because Peter recognized Jesus as the Messiah in Matthew 16:16 but here is proof that Jesus calls him Rock before Peter really even got to know Jesus or even accept him as the Messiah.

 

[Reformed]

“Okay, le’t stay here for awhile. How do you get baptismal regeneration in context with John 3-16 to 20? We all know that the chapters and verses are not inspired, right?” - Mister Z

John 3

You Must Be Born Again
3:1 Now there was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews. 2 This man came to Jesus [1] by night and said to him, “Rabbi, we know that you are a teacher come from God, for no one can do these signs that you do unless God is with him.” 3 Jesus answered him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again [2] he cannot see the kingdom of God.” 4 Nicodemus said to him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born?” 5 Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. [3] 7 Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You [4] must be born again.’ 8 The wind [5] blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit.”

9 Nicodemus said to him, “How can these things be?” 10 Jesus answered him, “Are you the teacher of Israel and yet you do not understand these things? 11 Truly, truly, I say to you, we speak of what we know, and bear witness to what we have seen, but you [6] do not receive our testimony. 12 If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how can you believe if I tell you heavenly things? 13 No one has ascended into heaven except he who descended from heaven, the Son of Man. [7] 14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15 that whoever believes in him may have eternal life. [8]

For God So Loved the World
16 “For God so loved the world, [9] that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God. 19 And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil. 20 For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his works should be exposed. 21 But whoever does what is true comes to the light, so that it may be clearly seen that his works have been carried out in God.”

Let’s discuss this section of chaper 3 today. Please share what is revealed here.

 

[Reformed]

Let’s discuss this section of chaper 3 today. Please share what is revealed here.

4 Nicodemus said to him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born?” 5 Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. [3] 7 Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You [4] must be born again.’ 8 The wind [5] blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit.”

In John 3 - Water and Spirit could mean

Physical birth and Spiritual birth.

or

Ezekiel 36

I Will Put My Spirit Within You
22 “Therefore say to the house of Israel, Thus says the Lord God: It is not for your sake, O house of Israel, that I am about to act, but for the sake of my holy name, which you have profaned among the nations to which you came. 23 And I will vindicate the holiness of my great name, which has been profaned among the nations, and which you have profaned among them. And the nations will know that I am the Lord, declares the Lord God, when through you I vindicate my holiness before their eyes. 24 I will take you from the nations and gather you from all the countries and bring you into your own land. 25 I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean from all your uncleannesses, and from all your idols I will cleanse you. 26 And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules.

 

[Mickey]

4In John 3 - Water and Spirit could mean
Physical birth and Spiritual birth.

The most famous New Testament evidence for the efficacy and necessity of baptism is in John’s Gospel. When Nicodemus comes to visit Jesus by night, Jesus says that a person cannot enter the kingdom of God without being born again. Nicodemus asks how a man might enter again into his mother’s womb and Jesus corrects him, saying, “No one can enter the kingdom of heaven unless he is born of water and the Spirit” (John 3:3-5). From the earliest days of the Church this passage has been understood to refer to baptism, and this interpretation is virtually unanimous down through history.

However, many Evangelicals have a peculiar interpretation for this verse. They say that the “water” in the verse does not refer to baptism, but to the amniotic fluid of the mother’s womb. This is the “water” that breaks at the point of physical birth. Therefore they believe when Jesus refers to “water and the Spirit,” he is referring to physical birth and spiritual re-birth. This might be a possible interpretation as the previous verse was a discussion of a man entering again into his mother’s womb.

However, one must look at the whole passage in its context. It is universally agreed that John’s Gospel is the most “sacramental” in its approach. The passages of Jesus’ life and teachings are put together in such a way as to connect with, and support, the sacramental life of the early Church. In the verses that immediately follow Jesus’ words that one must be “born again of water and the Spirit,” Jesus talks about “men loving darkness rather than light because their deeds are evil” (verse 19) and that whoever “lives by the truth comes to the light” (verse 21). The references to light point to the other main symbol of the baptismal ceremony—the lighted candle. If there is any doubt, the very next story in John chapter 3 shows Jesus immediately going out with his disciples baptizing.
catholic.com/thisrock/2008/0803fea2.asp

 

[Reformed]

The most famous New Testament evidence for the efficacy and necessity of baptism is in John’s Gospel. When Nicodemus comes to visit Jesus by night, Jesus says that a person cannot enter the kingdom of God without being born again. Nicodemus asks how a man might enter again into his mother’s womb and Jesus corrects him, saying, “No one can enter the kingdom of heaven unless he is born of water and the Spirit” (John 3:3-5). From the earliest days of the Church this passage has been understood to refer to baptism, and this interpretation is virtually unanimous down through history.

However, many Evangelicals have a peculiar interpretation for this verse. They say that the “water” in the verse does not refer to baptism, but to the amniotic fluid of the mother’s womb. This is the “water” that breaks at the point of physical birth. Therefore they believe when Jesus refers to “water and the Spirit,” he is referring to physical birth and spiritual re-birth. This might be a possible interpretation as the previous verse was a discussion of a man entering again into his mother’s womb.

However, one must look at the whole passage in its context. It is universally agreed that John’s Gospel is the most “sacramental” in its approach. The passages of Jesus’ life and teachings are put together in such a way as to connect with, and support, the sacramental life of the early Church. In the verses that immediately follow Jesus’ words that one must be “born again of water and the Spirit,” Jesus talks about “men loving darkness rather than light because their deeds are evil” (verse 19) and that whoever “lives by the truth comes to the light” (verse 21). The references to light point to the other main symbol of the baptismal ceremony—the lighted candle. If there is any doubt, the very next story in John chapter 3 shows Jesus immediately going out with his disciples baptizing.
catholic.com/thisrock/2008/0803fea2.asp

How about this answer in regards to being born of water and Spirit?

Ezekiel 36

I Will Put My Spirit Within You

22 “Therefore say to the house of Israel, Thus says the Lord God: It is not for your sake, O house of Israel, that I am about to act, but for the sake of my holy name, which you have profaned among the nations to which you came. 23 And I will vindicate the holiness of my great name, which has been profaned among the nations, and which you have profaned among them. And the nations will know that I am the Lord, declares the Lord God, when through you I vindicate my holiness before their eyes. 24 I will take you from the nations and gather you from all the countries and bring you into your own land. 25 I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean from all your uncleannesses, and from all your idols I will cleanse you. 26 And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules.

 

[Love_is_Patient]

4 Nicodemus said to him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born?” 5 Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. [3] 7 Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You [4] must be born again.’ 8 The wind [5] blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit.”

In John 3 - Water and Spirit could mean

Physical birth and Spiritual birth.

or

Ezekiel 36

I Will Put My Spirit Within You
22 “Therefore say to the house of Israel, Thus says the Lord God: It is not for your sake, O house of Israel, that I am about to act, but for the sake of my holy name, which you have profaned among the nations to which you came. 23 And I will vindicate the holiness of my great name, which has been profaned among the nations, and which you have profaned among them. And the nations will know that I am the Lord, declares the Lord God, when through you I vindicate my holiness before their eyes. 24 I will take you from the nations and gather you from all the countries and bring you into your own land. 25 I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean from all your uncleannesses, and from all your idols I will cleanse you. 26 And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules.

It’s pretty clear that to be born of “water and spirit” is a reference to baptism, where we are born again of the baptismal water and the Holy Spirit.

To say that it is anything else is really forcing one’s belief upon the text, rather than reading what the text actually says.

I’ve actually heard some Protestants claim Jesus is referring to amniotic fluid when he says “water.” That’s really stretching it to deny the historical, orthodox doctrine of baptismal regeneration.

Love is Patient

 

[mercygate]

In John 3 - Water and Spirit could mean

Physical birth and Spiritual birth.

Groan. I hope you do not advocate the completely untenable thesis that “water” here refers to amniotic fluid.

or

Ezekiel 36

I Will Put My Spirit Within You
22 “Therefore say to the house of Israel, Thus says the Lord God: It is not for your sake, O house of Israel, that I am about to act, but for the sake of my holy name, which you have profaned among the nations to which you came. 23 And I will vindicate the holiness of my great name, which has been profaned among the nations, and which you have profaned among them. And the nations will know that I am the Lord, declares the Lord God, when through you I vindicate my holiness before their eyes. 24 I will take you from the nations and gather you from all the countries and bring you into your own land. 25 I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean from all your uncleannesses, and from all your idols I will cleanse you. 26 And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules.

That’s better. Definitely a foreshadowing of baptism.

 

[Reformed]

It’s pretty clear that to be born of “water and spirit” is a reference to baptism, where we are born again of the baptismal water and the Holy Spirit.

To say that it is anything else is really forcing one’s belief upon the text, rather than reading what the text actually says.

I’ve actually heard some Protestants claim Jesus is referring to amniotic fluid when he says “water.” That’s really stretching it to deny the historical, orthodox doctrine of baptismal regeneration.

Love is Patient

If water baptism gives the sinner a new heart to live a life to please and worship God, why do so many sinners who are baptized in water (including infants) no longer love and worship God?

Please see my posting on Ezekiel 36 above and notice that there is a distinction between a baptism done by the Spirit (Spirit baptism - Rom 6), and outward baptism done by men (water baptism). We can dip, sprinkle and dunk a sinner for the rest of his life, but if the Spirit is not present and active… all of the dipping, sprinkkling, and dunking will not change the heart of the sinner to love God. He remains dead in his sins and treaspasses, unconverted. The evidence to this error rests with all those who participated in a baptism done by the hands of men and remain unchanged. Water baptism done by the hands of men does not regenerate a sinner.

For those who can make the link from the Old Testament sacrament of circumcision to the New Testament sacrament of baptism, here is additional insight:

25 For circumcision indeed is of value if you obey the law, but if you break the law, your circumcision becomes uncircumcision. 26 So, if a man who is uncircumcised keeps the precepts of the law, will not his uncircumcision be regarded [2] as circumcision? 27 Then he who is physically uncircumcised but keeps the law will condemn you who have the written code [3] and circumcision but break the law. 28 For no one is a Jew who is merely one outwardly, nor is circumcision outward and physical. 29 But a Jew is one inwardly, and circumcision is a matter of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter. His praise is not from man but from God. - rom 2

Alive in Christ - Col 2
6 Therefore, as you received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk in him, 7 rooted and built up in him and established in the faith, just as you were taught, abounding in thanksgiving.

8 See to it that no one takes you captive by philosophy and empty deceit, according to human tradition, according to the elemental spirits [1] of the world, and not according to Christ. 9 For in him the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily, 10 and you have been filled in him, who is the head of all rule and authority. 11 In him also you were circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, 12 having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the powerful working of God, who raised him from the dead. 13 And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses, 14 by canceling the record of debt that stood against us with its legal demands. This he set aside, nailing it to the cross. 15 He disarmed the rulers and authorities [2] and put them to open shame, by triumphing over them in him.

 

[Mickey]

That’s better. Definitely a foreshadowing of baptism.

Absolutely!

 

[mercygate]

If water baptism gives the sinner a new heart to live a life to please and worship God, why do so many sinners who are baptized in water (including infants) no longer love and worship God?

The same reason that so many “believers” who are baptized also no longer love and worship God.

 

[Love_is_Patient]

If water baptism gives the sinner a new heart to live a life to please and worship God, why do so many sinners who are baptized in water (including infants) no longer love and worship God?

Please see my posting on Ezekiel 36 above and notice that there is a distinction between a baptism done by the Spirit (Spirit baptism - Rom 6), and outward baptism done by men (water baptism). We can dip, sprinkle and dunk a sinner for the rest of his life, but if the Spirit is not present and active… all of the dipping, sprinkkling, and dunking will not change the heart of the sinner to love God. He remains dead in his sins and treaspasses, unconverted. The evidence to this error rests with all those who participated in a baptism done by the hands of men and remain unchanged. Water baptism done by the hands of men does not regenerate a sinner.

For those who can make the link from the Old Testament sacrament of circumcision to the New Testament sacrament of baptism, here is additional insight:

25 For circumcision indeed is of value if you obey the law, but if you break the law, your circumcision becomes uncircumcision. 26 So, if a man who is uncircumcised keeps the precepts of the law, will not his uncircumcision be regarded [2] as circumcision? 27 Then he who is physically uncircumcised but keeps the law will condemn you who have the written code [3] and circumcision but break the law. 28 For no one is a Jew who is merely one outwardly, nor is circumcision outward and physical. 29 But a Jew is one inwardly, and circumcision is a matter of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter. His praise is not from man but from God. - rom 2

Alive in Christ - Col 2
6 Therefore, as you received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk in him, 7 rooted and built up in him and established in the faith, just as you were taught, abounding in thanksgiving.

8 See to it that no one takes you captive by philosophy and empty deceit, according to human tradition, according to the elemental spirits [1] of the world, and not according to Christ. 9 For in him the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily, 10 and you have been filled in him, who is the head of all rule and authority. 11 In him also you were circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, 12 having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the powerful working of God, who raised him from the dead. 13 And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses, 14 by canceling the record of debt that stood against us with its legal demands. This he set aside, nailing it to the cross. 15 He disarmed the rulers and authorities [2] and put them to open shame, by triumphing over them in him.

Here’s your obstacle: you don’t beleive the Holy Spirit is active in Baptism. We do. Why not? Where’s your Scriptural basis?

Second, circumcision is totally supportive of baptism, IF you beleive that sacraments such as baptism are both physical AND Spiritual. If you see sacraments as “man’s work” and not God’s work, then of course you’ll have problems.

Love is Patient

 

[Reformed]

Here’s your obstacle: you don’t beleive the Holy Spirit is active in Baptism. We do. Why not? Where’s your Scriptural basis?

Second, circumcision is totally supportive of baptism, IF you beleive that sacraments such as baptism are both physical AND Spiritual. If you see sacraments as “man’s work” and not God’s work, then of course you’ll have problems.

Love is Patient

I do believe the Spirit of God is active in sacraments. I do not believe the Spirit of God is active in all sacraments. For instance, the Mormon Christians believe in baptismal regeneration. Do you believe that the Spirit of God is regenerating sinners when the Mormon Christian performs the sacrament of baptism. Please look at the portion of John 3 when the Scripture compares the working of the Spirit like the wind.

John 3

You Must Be Born Again
3:1 Now there was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews. 2 This man came to Jesus [1] by night and said to him, “Rabbi, we know that you are a teacher come from God, for no one can do these signs that you do unless God is with him.” 3 Jesus answered him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again [2] he cannot see the kingdom of God.” 4 Nicodemus said to him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born?” 5 Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. [3] 7 Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You [4] must be born again.’ 8 The wind [5] blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit.”

Paul cleary teaches the new creation (regeneration, rebirth, born from above, born again) is everything! Many who participate in water baptism never show signs of the new creation or new birth, correct? Roman Catholicism acknowledges baptism done in the triune formula. Just like Roman Catholicism, there are many Protestants who have been baptized with water who do not love God. Why is that, because they have not experienced the new birth.

Galatians 6:15

For neither circumcision counts for anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creation

 

[Mickey]

For instance, the Mormon Christians…

I thought you said that the Mormons were not Christians?

 

[Reformed]

I thought you said that the Mormons were not Christians?

I don’t think I ever posted that Mormons are not Christians, did I? I believe they are professing Christians following a different Jesus, a different gospel, and follow the Spirit of the anti-Christ. But they should be considered Christians because they claim to follow Christ.

 

[M0nkey]

I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean from all your uncleannesses

Wait. How is this not regenerative Baptism? Even in the O.T. God is using water as a physical representation of something spiritual.

 

[Mickey]

I don’t think I ever posted that Mormons are not Christians, did I? I believe they are professing Christians following a different Jesus, a different gospel, and follow the Spirit of the anti-Christ. But they should be considered Christians because they claim to follow Christ.

If it is a different Christ, a different Gospel, and the spirit of anti-Christ—how could you possibly call them Christians? How very odd.

 

[guanophore]

How about this answer in regards to being born of water and Spirit?

Ezekiel 36

I Will Put My Spirit Within You

22 “Therefore say to the house of Israel, Thus says the Lord God: It is not for your sake, O house of Israel, that I am about to act, but for the sake of my holy name, which you have profaned among the nations to which you came. 23 And I will vindicate the holiness of my great name, which has been profaned among the nations, and which you have profaned among them. And the nations will know that I am the Lord, declares the Lord God, when through you I vindicate my holiness before their eyes. 24 I will take you from the nations and gather you from all the countries and bring you into your own land. 25 I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean from all your uncleannesses, and from all your idols I will cleanse you. 26 And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules.

The Catholic Church recognizes this passage as speaking about the baptism that Jesus describes in Jn. 3 to Nicodemus.