Jesus Christ - Bible Study

[cfrancis]

Faith comes by hearing, and hearing through the Word of God. Please, let’s continue but understand this image on post 36:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=277394&page=3

I like the image. As soon as you remove your Protestant blindfold, and preach Christ crucified (as opposed to a sterile cross), the Spirit can move you to the fullness of Truth; for as you are fond of rending Paul’s statement of “knowing in part” from its context, there is, as Christ told the Apostles, “all truth” in His Church.

 

[cfrancis]

Please notice that in the 13 Epistles of the Apostle Paul, water bapitsm in not even part of the gospel proclamation.

Rom. 6:4; 1 Cor. 1:16, 6:11; Gal. 3:27; Col. 2:12; Titus 3:5-7; Eph. 4:5

I wanted Ryan’s post to get here

 

[Mickey]

Faith comes by hearing, and hearing through the Word of God. Please, let’s continue but understand this image on post 36

Yes. Remove your protestant blindfold of prejudice, and the study will probably go much smoother.

 

[guanophore]

That’s the problem with official Roman Catholic teaching. Many of her official positions contradicts other official positions…even on essential issues pertaining to salvation of sinners.

I am sorry you are having problems, Reformed. However, after looking over your website last night, it is no surprise. It was clear from the first post of yours that I read you have been wrongly taught about the Catholic faith (which is not “Roman” as your anti-Catholic sources have apparently informed you).

There are no contradictions for us, because we understand the fullness of the Teaching. It stands to reason that, since you have been misinformed and are misunderstanding, it would seem that way to you. However, you have come to the right place! If you are open minded, you will find out the truth.

God is not a God of confusion because God has spoke authoratively through His Holy Written Word called the Holy Bible. What we are experiencing together is the basis of the Protetstant Reformation. Should we believe official Roman Catholic dogma or Holy Scripture when they contradict?

This is a spurious question, since there is no contradiction. It seems that way to you because you don’t understand one, the other, or both.

Heck, you cannot even tell me what consists of the deposit of faith of Sacred Oral and Written Tradition to even know what is official taught on many issues.

You have been told a number of elements already, one of which is that the NT, by which you seem intent to thump us all on the head, is 100% a product if that Sacred Tradition.

The gospel of God’s grace is proclaimed. The elect are enabled by the Spirit to hear and believe. Then Christians are catechized after they are born from above.

Thus you have been taught to believe. The Apostles taught, as instructed by Christ, that we are born from above by water and spirit.

You cannot catechize a sinner who has not been converted because He does not have the Spirit in him to understand spiritual truth.

Such a formulaton represents a very limited view of the work of the Spirit. You have not yet explained why Jesus then wasted 3 years teaching the Apostles, when they did not have the Spirit in them to understand the truth. Poor Jesus. If he had just gotten a little tutoring from you first!

Please notice that in the 13 Epistles of the Apostle Paul, water bapitsm in not even part of the gospel proclamation.

Such a statement absolutely boggles the mind!

 

[Reformed]

I do not want to get bogged down on a baptism debate. Here is what I have to say in regards to the topic and John chapter 3.

John 3

You Must Be Born Again
3:1 Now there was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews. 2 This man came to Jesus [1] by night and said to him, “Rabbi, we know that you are a teacher come from God, for no one can do these signs that you do unless God is with him.” 3 Jesus answered him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again [2] he cannot see the kingdom of God.” 4 Nicodemus said to him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born?” 5 Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. [3] 7 Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You [4] must be born again.’ 8 The wind [5] blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit.”

9 Nicodemus said to him, “How can these things be?” 10 Jesus answered him, “Are you the teacher of Israel and yet you do not understand these things? 11 Truly, truly, I say to you, we speak of what we know, and bear witness to what we have seen, but you [6] do not receive our testimony. 12 If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how can you believe if I tell you heavenly things? 13 No one has ascended into heaven except he who descended from heaven, the Son of Man. [7] 14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15 that whoever believes in him may have eternal life. [8]

For God So Loved the World
16 “For God so loved the world, [9] that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God. 19 And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil. 20 For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his works should be exposed. 21 But whoever does what is true comes to the light, so that it may be clearly seen that his works have been carried out in God.”

Here is the verse with mutually exclusive interpretations with great theological implications. Roman Catholics see this verse to mean that Jesus is teaching baptismal regeneration. Was baptismal regeneration practiced before the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ, or after? In this historical account, the Christian sacrament of baptism wasn’t even instituted at this point in history. Therefore, Jesus was speaking to Nicodemus about something different than Christian baptism, especially since Nicodemus should have understood the OT Scriptures. How could Nicodemus understand this spiritual truth as baptismal regeneration because the concept would be completely foreign to Nicodemus. That is the seed that I will plant in your heads. I think we need to move on…please. Read the chapter in proper context within the ministry of Jesus and the rest of John chapter 3. .

“Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

 

[guanophore]

I do not want to get bogged down on a baptism debate. Here is what I have to say in regards to the topic and John chapter 3.

No, I should think not. If you were to actually step out of the “different gospel” framework in which you live, it might become evident that what you have been taught, and what the Apostles taught are two different things.

Here is the verse with mutually exclusive interpretations with great theological implications. Roman Catholics see this verse to mean that Jesus is teaching baptismal regeneration. Was baptismal regeneration practiced before the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ, or after?

I agree that the interpretations of the verse may be mutually exclusive.

To tell you the truth, I have always wondered when baptism shifted from that of John to the Triune. Jesus taught His Apostles to baptize. Was that John’s baptism, or was it Trinitarian? Were the instructions He gave them on the Mount prior to his Ascension different than those He gave before?
Reformed;4333577:

In this historical account, the Christian sacrament of baptism wasn’t even instituted at this point in history.

How do you know? How do you know what formula the Apostles used? Do you think the Apostles used the “baptism of John”?

Therefore, Jesus was speaking to Nicodemus about something different than Christian baptism, especially since Nicodemus should have understood the OT Scriptures. How could Nicodemus understand this spiritual truth as baptismal regeneration because the concept would be completely foreign to Nicodemus.

That is Christ’s point, though. It should not have been foreign. Jesus pointed out that he was a Teacher in Israel, and that he should have known these things.

That is the seed that I will plant in your heads. I think we need to move on…please. Read the chapter in proper context within the ministry of Jesus and the rest of John chapter 3. .

Thanks, but I think I have enough weed seeds to deal with. No need to add one from you! But thanks for your offer.

 

[ncgolf]

The gospel of God’s grace is proclaimed. The elect are enabled by the Spirit to hear and believe. Then Christians are catechized after they are born from above. You cannot catechize a sinner who has not been converted because He does not have the Spirit in him to understand spiritual truth.

Tell Jesus then, tell Mother Theresa, tell anyone who does prision ministry … tell the prostitutes and drug dealers. He is the one who said He came for sinners not for the righteous. Never once did I read where He said He came for the elect. Why then Matthew 9:10 …,“I did not come to call the righteous but sinners.” and the Beatitude …“Blessed are the poor in spirit for theirs is the Kingdom of Heaven.”

Who amongst us is not a sinner. Remember there are only 2 kinds of people “Sinners who think they are saints and saints who think they are sinners”. Which are you?

This may be one of the most bizarre understandings you have posted … Christ completely disagrees with you.

 

[guanophore]

Tell Jesus then, tell Mother Theresa, tell anyone who does prision ministry … tell the prostitutes and drug dealers. He is the one who said He came for sinners not for the righteous. Never once did I read where He said He came for the elect. Why then Matthew 9:10 …,“I did not come to call the righteous but sinners.” and the Beatitude …“Blessed are the poor in spirit for theirs is the Kingdom of Heaven.”

Who amongst us is not a sinner. Remember there are only 2 kinds of people “Sinners who think they are saints and saints who think they are sinners”. Which are you?

This may be one of the most bizarre understandings you have posted … Christ completely disagrees with you.

Reformed has been taught that people are born again when they hear the Word of God, so when it is preached, it reaches the ears of the elect, and they are regenerated. However, he has also been taught that they cannot come to faith unless they hear the Word, and they can’t hear without a preacher, so it is necessary, to gather the elect, that the gospel be proclaimed.

 

[Pax]

So far it would appear, at least IMHO, that all of the scriptures quoted for the regenerative nature of baptism and those favoring infant baptism far outweigh the few scriptures that do not deny either, but merely speak to the component of faith.

Reformed…what say you?

notfound

Here is a very difficult question for those who believe in baptismal regeneration. If the Catholic Church believes that regeneration occurs at baptism, then why would the Catholic Church hold back the converting sacrament of baptism for one year to complete an RCIA course? As we all know, not all attends an RCIA class have been batized before. Are you saying that a person is unregenerate for one year, until he makes it through the RCIA classes, then the Catholic Church administers the sacrament which converts him to Christ?

I was hoping that you would answer my question directly. I am trying to deal with the bible study primarily from scripture alone for purposes of drawing scriptural conclusions. I think others have answered the question you posed.

I would appreciate it if you would give this another look and answer the question as I presented it. Since it is a bible study, I would think that letting the scriptures speak first, then drawing conclusions from what the scriptures actually tell us, should precede any perceived potential issues or questions that might crop up as a result of the scriptural conclusions.

Reformed,

What do you think?

Peace

 

[Reformed]

I was hoping that you would answer my question directly. I am trying to deal with the bible study primarily from scripture alone for purposes of drawing scriptural conclusions. I think others have answered the question you posed.

I would appreciate it if you would give this another look and answer the question as I presented it. Since it is a bible study, I would think that letting the scriptures speak first, then drawing conclusions from what the scriptures actually tell us, should precede any perceived potential issues or questions that might crop up as a result of the scriptural conclusions.

Reformed,

What do you think?

Peace

I tried to find your posting, but I couldn’t locate it. Do you mind reposting. On the issue of biblical conclusions, all of Scripture must be taken into consideration before coming to a conclusion. We cannot gloss over Scriptures that does not fit with our presuppositions. That is called Scripture twisting which leads to wrong conclusions. The Mormon Christians are very good at Scripture twisting.

 

[Mickey]

all of Scripture must be taken into consideration before coming to a conclusion. We cannot gloss over Scriptures that does not fit with our presuppositions. That is called Scripture twisting which leads to wrong conclusions.

Yes. And it greatly saddens me how the reformers have twisted the sacred word of God over the past 500 years.

 

[Reformed]

Tell Jesus then, tell Mother Theresa, tell anyone who does prision ministry … tell the prostitutes and drug dealers. He is the one who said He came for sinners not for the righteous. Never once did I read where He said He came for the elect. Why then Matthew 9:10 …,“I did not come to call the righteous but sinners.” and the Beatitude …“Blessed are the poor in spirit for theirs is the Kingdom of Heaven.”

Who amongst us is not a sinner. Remember there are only 2 kinds of people “Sinners who think they are saints and saints who think they are sinners”. Which are you?

This may be one of the most bizarre understandings you have posted … Christ completely disagrees with you.

Please read and study 1 Corinithians chapters 1 and 2 for insight. God tends to choose the prostitutes, drug dealers, and tax collectors as His chosen vessels to shame the wise, intelligent, and privileged in this world so no man can boast.

 

[Reformed]

Yes. And it greatly saddens me how the reformers have twisted the sacred word of God over the past 500 years.

Just let God speak through the Scriptures without personal remarks like above that don’t help at all.

 

[Mickey]

Please read and study 1 Corinithians chapters 1 and 2 for insight. God tends to choose the prostitutes, drug dealers, and tax collectors as His chosen vessels to shame the wise, intelligent, and privileged in this world so no man can boast.

1 Cor 2:14-15
But the sensual man perceiveth not these things that are of the Spirit of God; for it is foolishness to him, and he cannot understand, because it is spiritually examined. But the spiritual man judgeth all things; and he himself is judged of no man.

“The sensual man”… The sensual man is either he who is taken up with sensual pleasures, with carnal and worldly affections; or he who measureth divine mysteries by natural reason, sense, and human wisdom only. Now such a man has little or no notion of the things of God. Whereas the spiritual man is he who, in the mysteries of religion, takes not human sense for his guide: but submits his judgment to the decisions of the church, which he is commanded to hear and obey. For Christ hath promised to remain to the end of the world with his church, and to direct her in all things by the Spirit of truth.
drbo.org/chapter/53002.htm

 

[Mickey]

Just let God speak through the Scriptures without personal remarks like above that don’t help at all.

Did you take it personally? My apologies.

I am saying that the Apostolic Church gave us the Sacred Scriptures and the interpretation thereof.

The reformers twisted it all up into knots.:crying:

 

[Reformed]

1 Cor 2:14-15
But the sensual man perceiveth not these things that are of the Spirit of God; for it is foolishness to him, and he cannot understand, because it is spiritually examined. But the spiritual man judgeth all things; and he himself is judged of no man.

“The sensual man”… The sensual man is either he who is taken up with sensual pleasures, with carnal and worldly affections; or he who measureth divine mysteries by natural reason, sense, and human wisdom only. Now such a man has little or no notion of the things of God. Whereas the spiritual man is he who, in the mysteries of religion, takes not human sense for his guide: but submits his judgment to the decisions of the church, which he is commanded to hear and obey. For Christ hath promised to remain to the end of the world with his church, and to direct her in all things by the Spirit of truth.
drbo.org/chapter/53002.htm

There are two humanities (Rom 5):

1. Those who are in Adam are men of the flesh
2. Those who are in Christ are men of the Spirit

The flesh and Spirit rage war with each other. Romans 8. Either you are part of the old humanity in Adam and flesh, or you are united to Christ and are led by the Spirit. Study Romans chapter 8. You need to be born from above to move from the old humanity to the new humanity.

 

[cfrancis]

I tried to find your posting, but I couldn’t locate it. Do you mind reposting. On the issue of biblical conclusions, all of Scripture must be taken into consideration before coming to a conclusion. We cannot gloss over Scriptures that does not fit with our presuppositions. That is called Scripture twisting which leads to wrong conclusions. The Mormon Christians are very good at Scripture twisting.

Don’t sell yourself short, Reformed! You and your fellow Protestants are great Scripture twisters

I tried to find your posting, but I couldn’t locate it.

Uh…click that little blue button next to Pax’s name in the quote.

 

[ncgolf]

Reformed has been taught that people are born again when they hear the Word of God, so when it is preached, it reaches the ears of the elect, and they are regenerated. However, he has also been taught that they cannot come to faith unless they hear the Word, and they can’t hear without a preacher, so it is necessary, to gather the elect, that the gospel be proclaimed.

I dont think I can be of the elect because I cannot even understand it. Seems likes its preaching to the choir.

 

[Mickey]

1. Those who are in Adam are men of the flesh
2. Those who are in Christ are men of the Spirit

Jesus Christ is the new Adam. He is 100% human nature (flesh) and 100% Divine (Spirit).

 

[Reformed]

Jesus Christ is the new Adam. He is 100% human nature (flesh) and 100% Divine (Spirit).

True, Jesus is the 2nd Adam. Are you still united to Adam?