Jesus Christ - Bible Study

[Pax]

I was hoping that you would answer my question directly. I am trying to deal with the bible study primarily from scripture alone for purposes of drawing scriptural conclusions. I think others have answered the question you posed.

I would appreciate it if you would give this another look and answer the question as I presented it. Since it is a bible study, I would think that letting the scriptures speak first, then drawing conclusions from what the scriptures actually tell us, should precede any perceived potential issues or questions that might crop up as a result of the scriptural conclusions.

Reformed,

What do you think?

Peace

I tried to find your posting, but I couldn’t locate it. Do you mind reposting. On the issue of biblical conclusions, all of Scripture must be taken into consideration before coming to a conclusion. We cannot gloss over Scriptures that does not fit with our presuppositions. That is called Scripture twisting which leads to wrong conclusions. The Mormon Christians are very good at Scripture twisting.

I will post all of the necessary information on baptism as regenerative and infant baptism which will give you the necessary data in one basic shot. It may take several posts but they will be consecutive and thus give you the opportunity to focus on the abundance of evidence.

 

[Pax]

Regenerative nature of baptism

Water baptism brings with it the washing away of sin, and the gift of the holy spirit. Hopefully the following analysis and passages of scipture will help you appreciate water baptism.

OT-- Baptism prefigured
Ezk 36:25-28
I will sprinkle clean water upon you, and you shall be clean from all your uncleannesses, and from all your idols I will cleanse you. A new heart I will give you, and a new spirit I will put within you; and I will remove from your body the heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh. I will put my spirit within you, and make you follow my statutes and be careful to observe my ordinances. Then you shall live in the land that I gave to your ancestors; and you shall be my people, and I will be your God.

Compare this to ACTS 2:37-38

Now when they heard this, they were cut to the heart and said to Peter and to the other apostles, “Brothers, what should we do?” Peter said to them, "Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ so that your sins may be forgiven; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Going statement for statement we see an unmistakable pattern and prefiguring in Ezekiel and it is clear that God will use water to cleanse us (forgive our sins), that he will change our hearts (and they were cut to the heart), and that he will put a new spirit within us(we receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.) Beyond this we read the following NT scriptures.

Baptism—Nicodemus

Non-Catholics will sometimes try to claim that Jesus is not talking about water baptism but that he is speaking of the water/amniotic fluid of natural childbirth when he speaks to Nicodemus. This view does violence to the passage in which Jesus tells Nicodemus that a man must be born anew in baptism. Clearly, the bag of waters interpretation cannot be true. First of all, those who make the case for the interpretation do not offer any evidence that the Jews described childbirth in terms of the bag of waters. We know that Jesus was talking about the water of baptism because the scriptures that immediately follow the meeting with Nicodemus say that, “After this Jesus and his disciples went into the land of Judea: there he remained with them and baptized” (John 3:22). The subsequent verses also mention that John the Baptist was nearby baptizing because there was an abundance of water. Baptism has always been associated with water, whereas childbirth in Jewish usage was more likely associated with blood. A biblical foundation for this latter point is found in John 1:12-13 where we read, “But to all who received him, who believed in his name, he gave power to become children of God: who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.”

ACTS 10:48
And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked him to remain for some days.
–mere symbolic rituals are not laid down as commands.

ACTS 19:1-7
While Apollos was at Corinth, Paul passed through the upper country and came to Ephesus. There he found some disciples. And he said to them, “Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?” And they said, “No, we have never even heard that there is a Holy Spirit.” And he said, “Into what then were you baptized?” They said, “Into John’s baptism.” And Paul said, “John baptized with the baptism of repentance, telling the people to believe in the one who was to come after him, that is, Jesus.” On hearing this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Spirit came on them; and they spoke with tongues and prophesied. There were about twelve of them in all.
—The Holy Spirit is given with Christian baptism as distinguished from John’s ritual baptism of forgiveness.

ACTS 22:16
And now why do you wait? Rise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on his name.’
—water baptism removes sin.

MATTHEW 28:19
Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
—once again, baptism is a command connected with evangelizing to faith.

MARK 16:16
He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.
—water baptism is a necessary part of salvation…it is the sacrament of faith.

ROMANS 6: 3-4
Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life.
—water baptism is the initiation into the Christian faith and this verse tell us what the sacrament brings to us.

GALATIANS 3:27
For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
—this has always been understood as water baptism.

COLOSSIANS 2:11-12
In him also you were circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of flesh in the circumcision of Christ; and you were buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the working of God, who raised him from the dead
—baptism is our initiation into Christianity just as circumcision was the initiation into the old covenant. Paul explains this important truth.

EPHESIANS 4:5
one Lord, one faith, one baptism,
—notice how these are tied together.

cont. on next post

 

[Pax]

cont. from prior post

TITUS 3:4-8
but when the goodness and loving kindness of God our Savior appeared, he saved us, not because of deeds done by us in righteousness, but in virtue of his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal in the Holy Spirit,
—this is water baptism as prefigured in the OT and seen in Acts 2:37-38

1 PETER 3:21
Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,
—Peter uses the analogy of Noah to emphasize that this is water baptism, and he clearly states that baptism saves you.

 

[Pax]

Infant Baptism

Matthew 19:13-14
Then little children were being brought to him in order that he might lay his hands on them and pray. The disciples spoke sternly to those who brought them; but Jesus said, "Let the little children come to me, and do not stop them;

Luke 18:15-16
People were bringing even infants to him that he might touch them; and when the disciples saw it, they sternly ordered them not to do it. But Jesus called for them and said, "Let the little children come to me, and do not stop them;

Col 2:11-12
In him also you were circumcised with a spiritual circumcision, by putting off the body of the flesh in the circumcision of Christ when you were buried with him in
baptism, you were also raised with him through faith in the power of God, who raised him from the dead. (i.e.,baptism replaces circumcision and children were circumcised as infants)

Scripture describes entire households that were baptized such as those of the Roman jailer, Lydia, and Stephanes. Scripture does not indicate that children were not included.

Luke 1 :15
The angel Gabriel says that John the Baptist , “even before his birth he will be filled with the Holy Spirit.”

LUKE 7:28
I tell you, among those born of women no one is greater than John; yet the least in the kingdom of God is greater than he."

1 Corinthians 10:1-4
“I WANT you to know, brethren, that our fathers were all under the cloud, and all passed through the sea, and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea, and all ate the same supernatural food and all drank the same supernatural drink. For they drank from the supernatural Rock which followed them, and the Rock was Christ.”

This is an abundantly clear OT prefiguring of baptism and being saved by baptism. The number of Israelites that left Egypt in Exodus is described as follows:

Exodus 12:37-38
And the people of Israel journeyed from Rameses to Succoth, about six hundred thousand men on foot, besides women and children. A mixed multitude also went up with them, and very many cattle, both flocks and herds.

It is obvious from this account and Paul’s reference to passing through the Red Sea and baptism that the sacrament of baptism is for men, women, and children regardless of their age.

 

[guanophore]

Doesn’t vicar mean Christ’s representative here on earth?

Well, vicar is a secular office. In this context, it means a visible representative who is responsible for earthly matters.

Didn’t Jesus tell us that we would not be orphans when He ascended to the Father, and He promised that He would send us a helper? The Spirit is to remind us of all things taught by Christ. The Spirit’s ministry is to illuminate truth to our minds and hearts through the Scriptures. The ministry of the Spirit is to transform us to the image of Christ…to the praise and glory of God alone.

This is all catholic except the last line. God does not wish to be alone,and He prefers to be glorified in and through His creation, especially the people whom He has made in His image an likeness. When we conform our lives to Him, and become visible as lights in the world, He is glorified in us.

It sure seems the Catholic magisterium is trying to replace God the Holy Spirit in His role of the process of salvation of redeemed sinners who have been purchased by the blood of Christ (full atonement).

I am sure it seems this way to you. You have been wrongly taught about the Catholic Church, and are apparently carrying and propogating centuries of anti-Catholic hostility.

Salvation is the role of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. The Spirit of God dwells in true believers in Jesus Christ. That kind of bumps the role of the Roman Catholic Church out of the picture as being the main instrument of salvation of wretched sinners like me and you.

You can bump the Holy and pure Bride of Christ if you want, Reformed (which is not “Roman” by the way). Jesus ordained that the Church would be the means by which His grace would be communicated to the world. Jesus identifies Himself completely with His Body, the Church.

 

[AshleyBelle]

I have just a little bit of time before I need to turn in for the evening, but I wanted to respond a with some closing thoughts for the day.

 Please realize, that though you may not "agree" with some catholic beliefs, that much of what you have posted today "in the spirit of ecumenism" has been outright offensive and slanderous. Not only for catholics, but to Christ himself.  Posts regarding the eucharist as something from "a zombie move."  Sacred tradition and the holy mother church as un-biblical and unnecesary for our faith. You claim the spirit of ecumenism, but you condemn us for not giving into the falacies of the "fundamentals" of reformed theology.

It is not us, the members of CAF forums you are hurting, but it is, sadly Christ you are casting your stones upon. For we believe with the assurance of the Holy Spirit, that when we worship in the sacrifice of the mass, that we are truly partaking of our Lord as He asked!
You advocate our “personal relationship” with Christ through the holy Scripture.
But sadly, you miss that though Christ does indeed invisibly reveal his truths through scripture, he is PHYSICALLY among us and beckoning you, indeed ALL of mankind to him, in his church! As catholics, we enjoy a communion and relationship with our Lord, more intimate than any fleeting “born again” emotion. We indeed are made one with Christ, and he dwells in us! Through the Eucharist, we recieve TRUE spiritual food! The mass is truly “heaven on earth” as we share in the unity of Christ with all of the angels and saints from every age.

How can you, in good conscience, bombarde this community of believers at CAF, with outright lies about our most dear sacraments and pillars of faith? How can you, with the false motive of Christian friendship and a spirit of seeking a close relationship with our Lord, twist the truths that God is CRYING OUT to us! For I am certain he is truly crying, every time his scriptures and His church on earth are twisted and misused for our own purposes.

Christ is calling to each of us in the eucharist! If only we could find the humility to accept him, even though we may not understand! If only we would put our TRUE relationship and communion with the Lord before our own agendas. This is the truth. This is Christ. So I ask you, where do you place CHRIST in your life, and where do you place the Bible?

Elevating God’s word, and telling Him what He was “really” saying, is a dangerous thing to place over God himself.

If you truly seek a close, personal and intimate relationship with our Lord…you need only step inside a catholic church. He is there. Waiting for you to come home!

 

[mercygate]

Doesn’t vicar mean Christ’s representative here on earth? Didn’t Jesus tell us that we would not be orphans when He ascended to the Father, and He promised that He would send us a helper? The Spirit is to remind us of all things taught by Christ. The Spirit’s ministry is to illuminate truth to our minds and hearts through the Scriptures. The ministry of the Spirit is to transform us to the image of Christ…to the praise and glory of God alone. It sure seems the Catholic magisterium is trying to replace God the Holy Spirit in His role of the process of salvation of redeemed sinners who have been purchased by the blood of Christ (full atonement). Salvation is the role of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. The Spirit of God dwells in true believers in Jesus Christ. That kind of bumps the role of the Roman Catholic Church out of the picture as being the main instrument of salvation of wretched sinners like me and you.

The Holy Spirit is not a vicar, or viceroy of God; He is God. He does not represent the Father; he is one with the Father and the Son. No wonder you hate the idea of the Church; you have a deviant view of the Holy Trinity.

 

[Reformed]

I have just a little bit of time before I need to turn in for the evening, but I wanted to respond a with some closing thoughts for the day.

 Please realize, that though you may not "agree" with some catholic beliefs, that much of what you have posted today "in the spirit of ecumenism" has been outright offensive and slanderous. Not only for catholics, but to Christ himself.  Posts regarding the eucharist as something from "a zombie move."  Sacred tradition and the holy mother church as un-biblical and unnecesary for our faith. You claim the spirit of ecumenism, but you condemn us for not giving into the falacies of the "fundamentals" of reformed theology.

It is not us, the members of CAF forums you are hurting, but it is, sadly Christ you are casting your stones upon. For we believe with the assurance of the Holy Spirit, that when we worship in the sacrifice of the mass, that we are truly partaking of our Lord as He asked!
You advocate our “personal relationship” with Christ through the holy Scripture.
But sadly, you miss that though Christ does indeed invisibly reveal his truths through scripture, he is PHYSICALLY among us and beckoning you, indeed ALL of mankind to him, in his church! As catholics, we enjoy a communion and relationship with our Lord, more intimate than any fleeting “born again” emotion. We indeed are made one with Christ, and he dwells in us! Through the Eucharist, we recieve TRUE spiritual food! The mass is truly “heaven on earth” as we share in the unity of Christ with all of the angels and saints from every age.

How can you, in good conscience, bombarde this community of believers at CAF, with outright lies about our most dear sacraments and pillars of faith? How can you, with the false motive of Christian friendship and a spirit of seeking a close relationship with our Lord, twist the truths that God is CRYING OUT to us! For I am certain he is truly crying, every time his scriptures and His church on earth are twisted and misused for our own purposes.

Christ is calling to each of us in the eucharist! If only we could find the humility to accept him, even though we may not understand! If only we would put our TRUE relationship and communion with the Lord before our own agendas. This is the truth. This is Christ. So I ask you, where do you place CHRIST in your life, and where do you place the Bible?

Elevating God’s word, and telling Him what He was “really” saying, is a dangerous thing to place over God himself.

If you truly seek a close, personal and intimate relationship with our Lord…you need only step inside a catholic church. He is there. Waiting for you to come home!

Are you familiar with the Sacred Tradition of “The Council of Trent”? That official Roman Catholic document must be embraced by you as a Roman Catholic and condemns what Protestant embrace as biblical truth that glorifies God.

 

[AshleyBelle]

Are you familiar with the Sacred Tradition of “The Council of Trent”? That official Roman Catholic document must be embraced by you as a Roman Catholic and condemns what Protestant embrace as biblical truth that glorifies God.

Care to provide a reference and proof? Or would you prefer to continue throwing around random accusations?

 

[Reformed]

Care to provide a reference and proof? Or would you prefer to continue throwing around random accusations?

If you are not aware of “The Council of Trent”, then you haven’t studied the issues of the Protestant Reformation. Did you have time to study the links that I posted on the Protestant Reformation? Here are the links again. I think you have a desire to study the issues to have a more honest discussion and debate pertaining to the real issues.

I know that our differences are not easy to discern the first time around. I think you should study the theological issues regarding the Protestant Reformation. Here’s a few links:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protestant_Reformation

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_solas

reformed.org/documents/index.html?mainframe=http://www.reformed.org/documents/cambridge.html

Please take the time to read and study the issues so we can continue our discussion. The issues that caused the Protestant Reformation are the exact same issues that we have today.

**
Council of Trent:**

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Council_of_Trent

history.hanover.edu/early/trent.htm

 

[guanophore]

Care to provide a reference and proof? Or would you prefer to continue throwing around random accusations?

Reformed is correct, Ashley. I have been very much enjoying your posts, BTW.

It is the duty of the Church to speak out against heresy an error. This was done at the council of Trent against the teaching of the Reformers who departed from the Apostolic Faith that we have received. Apostolic teaching was reaffirmed by Trent (as it has by all the councils throughout history) and specific statements made to define the inaccuracies that arose.

However, try not to feed into Reformed’s tendency to derail his own threads. This topic should go to a new thread.

 

[AshleyBelle]

Reformed is correct, Ashley. I have been very much enjoying your posts, BTW.

It is the duty of the Church to speak out against heresy an error. This was done at the council of Trent against the teaching of the Reformers who departed from the Apostolic Faith that we have received. Apostolic teaching was reaffirmed by Trent (as it has by all the councils throughout history) and specific statements made to define the inaccuracies that arose.

However, try not to feed into Reformed’s tendency to derail his own threads. This topic should go to a new thread.

Thanks for clarifying, that makes sense to me now… I could not for the life of me figure out what reformed was talking about, because he would rather tell me to “read up on the reformation.”

I understand the council of trent, and what it was intended for, what was said, and why it was said. I was just hoping reformed would just give a little more clear of an explanation, as to what he meant…instead of random accusations and references to the reformation … Because the reformation obviously makes ALL theology and history so clear!

I’m not kidding…if one more person tells me that I need to read and study the theology/history of the reformation, ONE MORE time, I am cancelling my internet service and joining a monastary far FAR away.

I have never studied the reformation as in depth as I have since joining the Catholic Church, actually. And the more I study it, the more illogical I realize the whole sitation was!

I always enjoy your posts immensely, as well, guanophor

 

[Reformed]

Thanks for clarifying, that makes sense to me now… I could not for the life of me figure out what reformed was talking about, because he would rather tell me to “read up on the reformation.”

I understand the council of trent, and what it was intended for, what was said, and why it was said. I was just hoping reformed would just give a little more clear of an explanation, as to what he meant…instead of random accusations and references to the reformation … Because the reformation obviously makes ALL theology and history so clear!

I’m not kidding…if one more person tells me that I need to read and study the theology/history of the reformation, ONE MORE time, I am cancelling my internet service and joining a monastary far FAR away.

I have never studied the reformation as in depth as I have since joining the Catholic Church, actually. And the more I study it, the more illogical I realize the whole sitation was!

I always enjoy your posts immensely, as well, guanophor

http://www.lovesanimals.com/images/animals/monkey/funny_monkey.jpg

Welcome dear sister in the Lord to our crazy discussion. Please…please stick around.
Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’ The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit.” - John 3

 

[AshleyBelle]

Account Suspended

Welcome dear sister in the Lord to our crazy discussion. Please…please stick around.
Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’ The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit.” - John 3

Proselytization is a pretty one sided discussion.

And while I would love to stick around, I need to go and prepare for mass. The Lord is waiting, and my relationship with Him is much more important that circular arguments with Christians who reject Him in the name of “Christian dialogue.”

But God bless, and I pray that you will continue to seek truth. You are one with a great gift of faith. You stand firm to the teachings handed down to you, and you have faith in God. If you can continue to use that gift towards seeking truth, and not just sticking to the bench on the road of your faith that feels so comfortable for you, you may just find a few twists you didn’t expect

Kimberly Hahn said something in her testimony that has always stood out to me.

When she was a young women at college, she realized that when it comes to your spiritual walk with God, you are either moving forward, or you’re going backward. Because you cannot just stand still.

So, I urge you to truly examine your faith, your positions, your “5 fundamentals” and “alone’s” and most of all your approach to sharing Christ, and ask yourself whether you are moving forward in YOUR relationship with Christ, or moving backwards.

As for me, I pray that with God’s grace I will continue to move forward in love and faith, as I share Him, body and soul, in communion with all the saints, in heaven and on earth.

God bless, reformed.

 

[Reformed]

Proselytization is a pretty one sided discussion.

And while I would love to stick around, I need to go and prepare for mass. The Lord is waiting, and my relationship with Him is much more important that circular arguments with Christians who reject Him in the name of “Christian dialogue.”

But God bless, and I pray that you will continue to seek truth. You are one with a great gift of faith. You stand firm to the teachings handed down to you, and you have faith in God. If you can continue to use that gift towards seeking truth, and not just sticking to the bench on the road of your faith that feels so comfortable for you, you may just find a few twists you didn’t expect

Kimberly Hahn said something in her testimony that has always stood out to me.

When she was a young women at college, she realized that when it comes to your spiritual walk with God, you are either moving forward, or you’re going backward. Because you cannot just stand still.

So, I urge you to truly examine your faith, your positions, your “5 fundamentals” and “alone’s” and most of all your approach to sharing Christ, and ask yourself whether you are moving forward in YOUR relationship with Christ, or moving backwards.

As for me, I pray that with God’s grace I will continue to move forward in love and faith, as I share Him, body and soul, in communion with all the saints, in heaven and on earth.

God bless, reformed.

Thank you for your kind words. I wish you well on your spiritual journey. May God be glorified in you life.

 

[Reformed]

Back to the Bible Study. Please share and comment on

John 3-5

You Must Be Born Again
3:1 Now there was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews. 2 This man came to Jesus [1] by night and said to him, “Rabbi, we know that you are a teacher come from God, for no one can do these signs that you do unless God is with him.” 3 Jesus answered him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again [2] he cannot see the kingdom of God.” 4 Nicodemus said to him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born?” 5 Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. [3] 7 Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You [4] must be born again.’ 8 The wind [5] blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit.”

9 Nicodemus said to him, “How can these things be?” 10 Jesus answered him, “Are you the teacher of Israel and yet you do not understand these things? 11 Truly, truly, I say to you, we speak of what we know, and bear witness to what we have seen, but you [6] do not receive our testimony. 12 If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how can you believe if I tell you heavenly things? 13 No one has ascended into heaven except he who descended from heaven, the Son of Man. [7] 14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15 that whoever believes in him may have eternal life. [8]

For God So Loved the World
16 “For God so loved the world, [9] that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God. 19 And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil. 20 For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his works should be exposed. 21 But whoever does what is true comes to the light, so that it may be clearly seen that his works have been carried out in God.”

John the Baptist Exalts Christ
22 After this Jesus and his disciples went into the Judean countryside, and he remained there with them and was baptizing. 23 John also was baptizing at Aenon near Salim, because water was plentiful there, and people were coming and being baptized 24 (for John had not yet been put in prison).

25 Now a discussion arose between some of John’s disciples and a Jew over purification. 26 And they came to John and said to him, “Rabbi, he who was with you across the Jordan, to whom you bore witness—look, he is baptizing, and all are going to him.” 27 John answered, “A person cannot receive even one thing unless it is given him from heaven. 28 You yourselves bear me witness, that I said, ‘I am not the Christ, but I have been sent before him.’ 29 The one who has the bride is the bridegroom. The friend of the bridegroom, who stands and hears him, rejoices greatly at the bridegroom’s voice. Therefore this joy of mine is now complete. 30 He must increase, but I must decrease.” [10]

31 He who comes from above is above all. He who is of the earth belongs to the earth and speaks in an earthly way. He who comes from heaven is above all. 32 He bears witness to what he has seen and heard, yet no one receives his testimony. 33 Whoever receives his testimony sets his seal to this, that God is true. 34 For he whom God has sent utters the words of God, for he gives the Spirit without measure. 35 The Father loves the Son and has given all things into his hand. 36 Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.

 

[Reformed]

U]Jesus and the Woman of Samaria
4:1 Now when Jesus learned that the Pharisees had heard that Jesus was making and baptizing more disciples than John 2 (although Jesus himself did not baptize, but only his disciples), 3 he left Judea and departed again for Galilee. 4 And he had to pass through Samaria. 5 So he came to a town of Samaria called Sychar, near the field that Jacob had given to his son Joseph. 6 Jacob’s well was there; so Jesus, wearied as he was from his journey, was sitting beside the well. It was about the sixth hour. [11]

7 A woman from Samaria came to draw water. Jesus said to her, “Give me a drink.” 8 (For his disciples had gone away into the city to buy food.) 9 The Samaritan woman said to him, “How is it that you, a Jew, ask for a drink from me, a woman of Samaria?” (For Jews have no dealings with Samaritans.) 10 Jesus answered her, “If you knew the gift of God, and who it is that is saying to you, ‘Give me a drink,’ you would have asked him, and he would have given you living water.” 11 The woman said to him, “Sir, you have nothing to draw water with, and the well is deep. Where do you get that living water? 12 Are you greater than our father Jacob? He gave us the well and drank from it himself, as did his sons and his livestock.” 13 Jesus said to her, “Everyone who drinks of this water will be thirsty again, 14 but whoever drinks of the water that I will give him will never be thirsty again. [12] The water that I will give him will become in him a spring of water welling up to eternal life.” 15 The woman said to him, “Sir, give me this water, so that I will not be thirsty or have to come here to draw water.”

16 Jesus said to her, “Go, call your husband, and come here.” 17 The woman answered him, “I have no husband.” Jesus said to her, “You are right in saying, ‘I have no husband’; 18 for you have had five husbands, and the one you now have is not your husband. What you have said is true.” 19 The woman said to him, “Sir, I perceive that you are a prophet. 20 Our fathers worshiped on this mountain, but you say that in Jerusalem is the place where people ought to worship.” 21 Jesus said to her, “Woman, believe me, the hour is coming when neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem will you worship the Father. 22 You worship what you do not know; we worship what we know, for salvation is from the Jews. 23 But the hour is coming, and is now here, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for the Father is seeking such people to worship him. 24 God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth.” 25 The woman said to him, “I know that Messiah is coming (he who is called Christ). When he comes, he will tell us all things.” 26 Jesus said to her, “I who speak to you am he.”

27 Just then his disciples came back. They marveled that he was talking with a woman, but no one said, “What do you seek?” or, “Why are you talking with her?” 28 So the woman left her water jar and went away into town and said to the people, 29 “Come, see a man who told me all that I ever did. Can this be the Christ?” 30 They went out of the town and were coming to him.

31 Meanwhile the disciples were urging him, saying, “Rabbi, eat.” 32 But he said to them, “I have food to eat that you do not know about.” 33 So the disciples said to one another, “Has anyone brought him something to eat?” 34 Jesus said to them, “My food is to do the will of him who sent me and to accomplish his work. 35 Do you not say, ‘There are yet four months, then comes the harvest’? Look, I tell you, lift up your eyes, and see that the fields are white for harvest. 36 Already the one who reaps is receiving wages and gathering fruit for eternal life, so that sower and reaper may rejoice together. 37 For here the saying holds true, ‘One sows and another reaps.’ 38 I sent you to reap that for which you did not labor. Others have labored, and you have entered into their labor.”

39 Many Samaritans from that town believed in him because of the woman’s testimony, “He told me all that I ever did.” 40 So when the Samaritans came to him, they asked him to stay with them, and he stayed there two days. 41 And many more believed because of his word. 42 They said to the woman, “It is no longer because of what you said that we believe, for we have heard for ourselves, and we know that this is indeed the Savior of the world.”

43 After the two days he departed for Galilee. 44 (For Jesus himself had testified that a prophet has no honor in his own hometown.) 45 So when he came to Galilee, the Galileans welcomed him, having seen all that he had done in Jerusalem at the feast. For they too had gone to the feast.

Jesus Heals an Official’s Son
46 So he came again to Cana in Galilee, where he had made the water wine. And at Capernaum there was an official whose son was ill. 47 When this man heard that Jesus had come from Judea to Galilee, he went to him and asked him to come down and heal his son, for he was at the point of death. 48 So Jesus said to him, “Unless you see signs and wonders you will not believe.” 49 The official said to him, “Sir, come down before my child dies.” 50 Jesus said to him, “Go; your son will live.” The man believed the word that Jesus spoke to him and went on his way. 51 As he was going down, his servants [13] met him and told him that his son was recovering. 52 So he asked them the hour when he began to get better, and they said to him, “Yesterday at the seventh hour [14] the fever left him.” 53 The father knew that was the hour when Jesus had said to him, “Your son will live.” And he himself believed, and all his household. 54 This was now the second sign that Jesus did when he had come from Judea to Galilee.

 

[Reformed]

The Healing at the Pool on the Sabbath
5:1 After this there was a feast of the Jews, and Jesus went up to Jerusalem.

2 Now there is in Jerusalem by the Sheep Gate a pool, in Aramaic [15] called Bethesda, [16] which has five roofed colonnades. 3 In these lay a multitude of invalids—blind, lame, and paralyzed. [17] 5 One man was there who had been an invalid for thirty-eight years. 6 When Jesus saw him lying there and knew that he had already been there a long time, he said to him, “Do you want to be healed?” 7 The sick man answered him, “Sir, I have no one to put me into the pool when the water is stirred up, and while I am going another steps down before me.” 8 Jesus said to him, “Get up, take up your bed, and walk.” 9 And at once the man was healed, and he took up his bed and walked.

Now that day was the Sabbath. 10 So the Jews said to the man who had been healed, “It is the Sabbath, and it is not lawful for you to take up your bed.” 11 But he answered them, “The man who healed me, that man said to me, ‘Take up your bed, and walk.’” 12 They asked him, “Who is the man who said to you, ‘Take up your bed and walk’?” 13 Now the man who had been healed did not know who it was, for Jesus had withdrawn, as there was a crowd in the place. 14 Afterward Jesus found him in the temple and said to him, “See, you are well! Sin no more, that nothing worse may happen to you.” 15 The man went away and told the Jews that it was Jesus who had healed him. 16 And this was why the Jews were persecuting Jesus, because he was doing these things on the Sabbath. 17 But Jesus answered them, “My Father is working until now, and I am working.”

Jesus Is Equal with God
18 This was why the Jews were seeking all the more to kill him, because not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.

The Authority of the Son
19 So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of his own accord, but only what he sees the Father doing. For whatever the Father [18] does, that the Son does likewise. 20 For the Father loves the Son and shows him all that he himself is doing. And greater works than these will he show him, so that you may marvel. 21 For as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, so also the Son gives life to whom he will. 22 The Father judges no one, but has given all judgment to the Son, 23 that all may honor the Son, just as they honor the Father. Whoever does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent him. 24 Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.

25 “Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming, and is now here, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live. 26 For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son also to have life in himself. 27 And he has given him authority to execute judgment, because he is the Son of Man. 28 Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice 29 and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment.

Witnesses to Jesus
30 “I can do nothing on my own. As I hear, I judge, and my judgment is just, because I seek not my own will but the will of him who sent me. 31 If I alone bear witness about myself, my testimony is not deemed true. 32 There is another who bears witness about me, and I know that the testimony that he bears about me is true. 33 You sent to John, and he has borne witness to the truth. 34 Not that the testimony that I receive is from man, but I say these things so that you may be saved. 35 He was a burning and shining lamp, and you were willing to rejoice for a while in his light. 36 But the testimony that I have is greater than that of John. For the works that the Father has given me to accomplish, the very works that I am doing, bear witness about me that the Father has sent me. 37 And the Father who sent me has himself borne witness about me. His voice you have never heard, his form you have never seen, 38 and you do not have his word abiding in you, for you do not believe the one whom he has sent. 39 You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is they that bear witness about me, 40 yet you refuse to come to me that you may have life. 41 I do not receive glory from people. 42 But I know that you do not have the love of God within you. 43 I have come in my Father’s name, and you do not receive me. If another comes in his own name, you will receive him. 44 How can you believe, when you receive glory from one another and do not seek the glory that comes from the only God? 45 Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father. There is one who accuses you: Moses, on whom you have set your hope. 46 For if you believed Moses, you would believe me; for he wrote of me. 47 But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe my words?”

 

[AshleyBelle]

The Healing at the Pool on the Sabbath
5:1 After this there was a feast of the Jews, and Jesus went up to Jerusalem.

2 Now there is in Jerusalem by the Sheep Gate a pool, in Aramaic [15] called Bethesda, [16] which has five roofed colonnades. 3 In these lay a multitude of invalids—blind, lame, and paralyzed. [17] 5 One man was there who had been an invalid for thirty-eight years. 6 When Jesus saw him lying there and knew that he had already been there a long time, he said to him, “Do you want to be healed?” 7 The sick man answered him, “Sir, I have no one to put me into the pool when the water is stirred up, and while I am going another steps down before me.” 8 Jesus said to him, “Get up, take up your bed, and walk.” 9 And at once the man was healed, and he took up his bed and walked.

Now that day was the Sabbath. 10 So the Jews said to the man who had been healed, “It is the Sabbath, and it is not lawful for you to take up your bed.” 11 But he answered them, “The man who healed me, that man said to me, ‘Take up your bed, and walk.’” 12 They asked him, “Who is the man who said to you, ‘Take up your bed and walk’?” 13 Now the man who had been healed did not know who it was, for Jesus had withdrawn, as there was a crowd in the place. 14 Afterward Jesus found him in the temple and said to him, “See, you are well! Sin no more, that nothing worse may happen to you.” 15 The man went away and told the Jews that it was Jesus who had healed him. 16 And this was why the Jews were persecuting Jesus, because he was doing these things on the Sabbath. 17 But Jesus answered them, “My Father is working until now, and I am working.”

Jesus Is Equal with God
18 This was why the Jews were seeking all the more to kill him, because not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.

The Authority of the Son
19 So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of his own accord, but only what he sees the Father doing. For whatever the Father [18] does, that the Son does likewise. 20 For the Father loves the Son and shows him all that he himself is doing. And greater works than these will he show him, so that you may marvel. 21 For as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, so also the Son gives life to whom he will. 22 The Father judges no one, but has given all judgment to the Son, 23 that all may honor the Son, just as they honor the Father. Whoever does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent him. 24 Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.

25 “Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming, and is now here, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live. 26 For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son also to have life in himself. 27 And he has given him authority to execute judgment, because he is the Son of Man. 28 Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice 29 and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment.

Witnesses to Jesus
30 “I can do nothing on my own. As I hear, I judge, and my judgment is just, because I seek not my own will but the will of him who sent me. 31 If I alone bear witness about myself, my testimony is not deemed true. 32 There is another who bears witness about me, and I know that the testimony that he bears about me is true. 33 You sent to John, and he has borne witness to the truth. 34 Not that the testimony that I receive is from man, but I say these things so that you may be saved. 35 He was a burning and shining lamp, and you were willing to rejoice for a while in his light. 36 But the testimony that I have is greater than that of John. For the works that the Father has given me to accomplish, the very works that I am doing, bear witness about me that the Father has sent me. 37 And the Father who sent me has himself borne witness about me. His voice you have never heard, his form you have never seen, 38 and you do not have his word abiding in you, for you do not believe the one whom he has sent. **39 You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is they that bear witness about me, 40 yet you refuse to come to me that you may have life. **41 I do not receive glory from people. 42 But I know that you do not have the love of God within you. 43 I have come in my Father’s name, and you do not receive me. If another comes in his own name, you will receive him. 44 How can you believe, when you receive glory from one another and do not seek the glory that comes from the only God? 45 Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father. There is one who accuses you: Moses, on whom you have set your hope. 46 For if you believed Moses, you would believe me; for he wrote of me. 47 But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe my words?”

39 You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is they that bear witness about me, 40 yet you refuse to come to me that you may have life.

I realize Christ was talking to the jews at the time, who were searching the scriptures for the coming of the messiah, and didn't know or realize that He was already PRESENT among them, because they were too busy studying, to realize this.

Applied to our lives today, it sounds to me, as if a strong paralelle to the eucharist! Why do we spend our days pouring for answers in the scriptures ALONE, when Christ is PRESENT among us, calling us to Him in the mass!

 

[Ronald_E]

Proselytization is a pretty one sided discussion.

And while I would love to stick around, I need to go and prepare for mass. The Lord is waiting, and my relationship with Him is much more important that circular arguments with Christians who reject Him in the name of “Christian dialogue.”

But God bless, and I pray that you will continue to seek truth. You are one with a great gift of faith. You stand firm to the teachings handed down to you, and you have faith in God. If you can continue to use that gift towards seeking truth, and not just sticking to the bench on the road of your faith that feels so comfortable for you, you may just find a few twists you didn’t expect

Kimberly Hahn said something in her testimony that has always stood out to me.

When she was a young women at college, she realized that when it comes to your spiritual walk with God, you are either moving forward, or you’re going backward. Because you cannot just stand still.

So, I urge you to truly examine your faith, your positions, your “5 fundamentals” and “alone’s” and most of all your approach to sharing Christ, and ask yourself whether you are moving forward in YOUR relationship with Christ, or moving backwards.

As for me, I pray that with God’s grace I will continue to move forward in love and faith, as I share Him, body and soul, in communion with all the saints, in heaven and on earth.

God bless, reformed.

AshleyBelle, The clarity of your words leave me speechless except to say I am speechless.
I will be receiving Our Lord tomorrow morning to receive His body, blood, soul and divinity that I need so desparately.
Thank you for your clarity.