Jesus Christ - Bible Study

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Reformed said:
Very interesting comment. From a Catholic Christian perspective on the Eucharist, John’s gospel is a very significant book. From a Calvinist Christian persepective, the gospel of John is the most Calvninistic (TULIP) book in the Bible according to many Calvinists (more than Romans and Ephesians).
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It all depends on the lens and perspective. Hopefully, each side can have a greater appreciation for one another’s views as we go forward.

As we do you will be given some careful and critical analysis of the Calvinist loci for TULIP. It will be interesting.
 
I appreciate the links. As with all of us, our time is limited. I actually post at the same time that I am working on the computer at my home office. Therefore, I do apologize when it seems that I gloss over what everyone is sharing. Part of the problem is that Forum sites move quickly before we all have time to reflect what we are sharing with each other. For example, if we come back in a day, there will be multiple postings made after this particular convestation that we are having. We are all discussing an Infinite mind in our Triune God…this is not fast food theology topics that we discussing too.
 
Reformed said:
How do you see faith in regards to faith being a gift from God or being self-generated? How do you see enabling grace and our union with Christ and our call to obedience?
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I don’t follow. Salvation IS a gift from God. What we do with that gift is another story.
 
M0nkey said:
I don’t follow. Salvation IS a gift from God. What we do with that gift is another story.
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Ephesians 2:8-9

For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

We both agree that grace is a gift of God. I also see that faith being a gift from God too. How about you, is faith something that you bring to the table of salvation, or is it something that is a gift from God? We are saved by grace through the instrument of faith. We can look at faith as the conduit which grace is given to us. I know this will be different than grace through faith or the sacraments, or both. Please help me understand the Catholic position of receving grace through the sacraments and faith. My understanding of the treasury merit is quite undeveloped too.
 
Reformed said:
Ephesians 2:8-9

For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

We both agree that grace is a gift of God. I also see that faith being a gift from God too. How about you, is faith something that you bring to the table of salvation, or is it something that is a gift from God? We are saved by grace through the instrument of faith. We can look at faith as the conduit which grace is given to us. I know this will be different than grace through faith or the sacraments, or both. Please help me understand the Catholic position of receving grace through the sacraments and faith. My understanding of the treasury merit is quite undeveloped too.
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As you have aptly pointed out, all that we have, and all that we are is from God. In that sense, it is a gift. However, faith is a human faculty, part of our makeup. It belongs to us, and it is under the control of the will. A person decides where they will place their faith. It is the human faculty or ability through which we access saving grace. Jesus often said “your faith has saved you”. He did not mean that it was possible to save ourselves, but was affirming to certain persons that they had appropriately placed their faith, and therefore, been able to access saving grace.
 
Reformed said:
Ephesians 2:8-9

For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

We both agree that grace is a gift of God. I also see that faith being a gift from God too. How about you, is faith something that you bring to the table of salvation, or is it something that is a gift from God? We are saved by grace through the instrument of faith. We can look at faith as the conduit which grace is given to us. I know this will be different than grace through faith or the sacraments, or both. Please help me understand the Catholic position of receving grace through the sacraments and faith. My understanding of the treasury merit is quite undeveloped too.
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Faith is a gift. Even the desire for faith is a gift of grace.
 
guanophore said:
As you have aptly pointed out, all that we have, and all that we are is from God. In that sense, it is a gift. However, faith is a human faculty, part of our makeup. It belongs to us, and it is under the control of the will. A person decides where they will place their faith. It is the human faculty or ability through which we access saving grace. Jesus often said “your faith has saved you”. He did not mean that it was possible to save ourselves, but was affirming to certain persons that they had appropriately placed their faith, and therefore, been able to access saving grace.
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You see…we are going deeper into our privlidged position of being believers in Christ. We have faith in Christ and many others do not. However, the faith that we have, was it self-generated apart from the grace of God, or was it given to us through a change of nature from fallen to the new nature? Since we are going through the gospel of John, I will quote John 6 to support that God enabled us to have faith by his grace alone. On the other hand, I wil not post John 6, but direct those who want to read John 6 to show that the elect of God are enabled by God to believe or have faith in Christ. The only reason why unbelievers cannot have faith in Christ is because they are unable to see Jesus as being worthy of their affections. They cannot see Jesus as being desirable because they remain spirituality blind. We have to be granted spiritual eyes to see Jesus as being desirable before we freely come to Him. We must be born again. Do you see how everythng ties in together? The new birth is necessary and the Spirit enables us to see (1 Cor chapters 1 and 2).

John 3

You Must Be Born Again

3:1 Now there was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews. 2 This man came to Jesus [1] by night and said to him, “Rabbi, we know that you are a teacher come from God, for no one can do these signs that you do unless God is with him.” 3 Jesus answered him, **“Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again [2] he cannot see the kingdom of God.” **
 
mercygate said:
Faith is a gift. Even the desire for faith is a gift of grace.
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Just as an inspiration to go deeper to the praise of His glorious grace, I will say that your comment is a Catholic Calvinist’s insight just like Michael’s comment on perserving grace given to the elect only. These concepts are so hostile to our old nature that wages war with the Spirit that dwells in us as Christians. Within the 5 solas of the Protestant Reformation, we all can agree with the last sola of “Glory to God alone”. Calvinism is a theolgical system grounded in the scriptures to bring the mind and heart to the end goal of praising God for his glorious grace.

We (Christians) are all vessels of God’ mercy to the praise and glory of God alone! For what else were we redeemed for but to glorify God and enjoy Him forever?
 
Reformed said:
You Must Be Born Again

3:1 Now there was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews. 2 This man came to Jesus [1] by night and said to him, “Rabbi, we know that you are a teacher come from God, for no one can do these signs that you do unless God is with him.” 3 Jesus answered him, **“Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again [2] he cannot see the kingdom of God.” **
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As we are lepers in sin, we are made clean from our old transgressions by means of the sacred water and the invocation of the Lord. We are thus spiritually regenerated as newborn infants, even as the Lord has declared: ‘Except a man be born again through water and the Spirit, he shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.’
Irenaeus, (120-205 AD ) “Fragments From Lost Writings”, no. 34, Ante-Nicene Fathers, Vol. 1, pg. 574
 
Mickey said:
As we are lepers in sin, we are made clean from our old transgressions by means of the sacred water and the invocation of the Lord. We are thus spiritually regenerated as newborn infants, even as the Lord has declared: ‘Except a man be born again through water and the Spirit, he shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.’
Irenaeus, (120-205 AD ) “Fragments From Lost Writings”, no. 34, Ante-Nicene Fathers, Vol. 1, pg. 574
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Thanks for sharing. We all understand the necessity of the new birth. The Roman Catholic Christian will see the new birth through baptism or through baptismal regeneration. The Protestant Christians understand the new birth through hearing the gospel proclamation, and by the Spirit receiving and believing the good news of God. Here’s a tough one IMO for the Roman Catholic position in regards to the new birth.

1 Corinthians 1:17

For Christ did not send me to baptize but to preach the gospel, and not with words of eloquent wisdom, lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power.

John 3 and the new birth should be a healthy discussion…
 
Reformed said:
Thanks for sharing. We all understand the necessity of the new birth. The Roman Catholic Christian will see the new birth through baptism or baptismal regeneration. The Protestant Christians understand the new birth through hearing the gospel proclamation. Here’s a tough one IMO for the Roman Catholic position.
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It is both for the Roman Catholic/Orthodox Christian. Is it both for the protestant?
 
Mickey said:
It is both for the Roman Catholic/Orthodox Christian. Is it both for the protestant?
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It general, it is not for the Protestant. I’m not so sure about Lutherans or Anglicans. Water baptism is not tied with regeneration or the new birth.
 
Mickey said:
Are you baptist? Who subscribes to this thinking?
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Actually, I can embrace believers baptism and padeo baptism at the same time. The best summary of my beliefs can be found on the Westminster Confession of Faith alongside of the London Baptist of Faith of 1689. I don’t struggle too much with the two protestant sacraments.
 
Reformed said:
Actually, I can embrace believers baptism and padeo baptism at the same time. The best summary of my beliefs can be found on the Westminster Confession of Faith alongside of the London Baptist of Faith of 1689. I don’t struggle too much with the two protestant sacraments.
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So then you are non-denominational?
 
Reformed said:
Ephesians 2:8-9

For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

We both agree that grace is a gift of God. I also see that faith being a gift from God too. How about you, is faith something that you bring to the table of salvation, or is it something that is a gift from God? We are saved by grace through the instrument of faith. We can look at faith as the conduit which grace is given to us. I know this will be different than grace through faith or the sacraments, or both. Please help me understand the Catholic position of receving grace through the sacraments and faith. My understanding of the treasury merit is quite undeveloped too.
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All I know is that all I do comes from God alone. The very reason for my existence is simply because God wills it.

In the light of the sacraments, these are gifts that God makes available to us through His Church. Please read the following sentence in Eph. in light of the sacraments and our good works:

For we are his handiwork, created in Christ Jesus for the good works that God has prepared in advance, that we should live in them. - Eph. 2:10
Reformed said:
You see…we are going deeper into our privlidged position of being believers in Christ.
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Non-believers are simply that way because of sin. The Church teaches that it is a condition, a propensity to sin called concupiscence. Once we believe and are baptized, however, we can still fall into grave sin. St. James tells us in his epistles:

For whoever keeps the whole law, but falls short in one particular, has become guilty in respect to all of it. For he who said, “You shall not commit adultery,” also said, “You shall not kill.” Even if you do not commit adultery but kill, you have become a transgressor of the law. - James 2:10-11

On one last note, what do you mean by ‘privileged?’ Are you implying you are better, or more loved than nonbelievers? If you are saying that is is a privilege to suffer or die for Christ then I follow you there. Otherwise, I think you are gravely wrong.
 
Reformed said:
The best summary of my beliefs can be found on the Westminster Confession of Faith alongside of the London Baptist of Faith of 1689.
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It has been a while since I read those. If I am not mistaken, isn’t there something in there that refers to the Pope as the anti-Christ?!?
 
Reformed said:
**Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God. **
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For he who has been sanctified, his sins being put away in baptism, and has been spiritually re-formed into a new man, has become fitted for receiving the Holy Spirit; since the apostle says, 'As many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.'
St Cyprian of Carthage (200-258 AD ),“The Epistles of Cyprian,” Ante-Nicene Fathers, Vol. 5, pg. 387-388)
 
Reformed said:
Water baptism is not tied with regeneration or the new birth.
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Interesting how you claim to know and follow the scriptures and yet do not believe the formula Jesus specifically laid out: “you must be reborn of water and the spirit.”

Can you tell me how you explain this away?
 
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