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Richard_Kastner
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Ok, time to call it a day. I’ll pray the Spirit of the living God open your eyes to the truth.
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PRmerger
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Richard, your church agrees with us on the truth, on this particular issue!!
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1beleevr
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prmerger: So, if yelling at your children(unwarranted, I presume) is a sin, as you say, of not treating them like Christ; then we cold also say, that we sin against each other, when we don’t treat each other as Christ! This would be a violation of the second greatest commandment!
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1beleevr
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guan: I may be wrong, but I can’t remember any posts, where non-catholics have told you that you CAN’T pray throught the saints, or Mary for that matter! We just question the NEED to do so!
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1beleevr
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This past weekend, spent some time discussing the issue of interpretation of not only scripture, but all other written text, movies, music, etc. As humans, we are prone to read into something, read between the lines, and/or completely miss the message that is intended! There are many reasons why this happens, the least of which is how we have been taught to interpret things! Think about this; you are walking by a restaurant and see this sign: “Effective August 1, 2009, The Executive Dining Room will only be open on Thursdays!” Could we assume that meals will be served, just because it is open? Will it be open every Thursday? How about if I said(and I did Yesterday at nursing home) the voice you heard from Heaven in the OT, is the same one that was walking and talking through Samaria, Jerusalem, and Galilee! Would you believe it; I mean Jesus is God, right? Bottom line is, reading scripture and believing that what one person says is true, without researching it, or praying for discernment from the Holy Spirit, is a risky undertaking
If I read 1 John 1:9, can I really infer that when I confess my sins unto Him, that a priest is or has to be there? Can I not commune one on one with my Holy Father, who is the only One who forgives sin? I interpret 2 Samuel 14:14, as a reference to Jesus, whereas someone else may say, hogwash!
If I read 1 John 1:9, can I really infer that when I confess my sins unto Him, that a priest is or has to be there? Can I not commune one on one with my Holy Father, who is the only One who forgives sin? I interpret 2 Samuel 14:14, as a reference to Jesus, whereas someone else may say, hogwash!
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1beleevr
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shw: Good post!:thumbsup:You know, though, even before pope John Paul II said that all men could be saved, I already had been for almost 40 years! Yippee! But after reading your post, I wondered why, if Jesus didn’t do communion the way the cc does, why the cc does it like they do! You know, why does the priest put the wafer on your tongue; why is He the only one drinking from the cup
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1beleevr
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placido: I already answered the question! And don’t sell yourself short, by saying that you are a poor communicator! We have all been endowed with gifts, by the Holy Spirit!
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guanophore
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Well, they don’t call it that, but yes, the concept is there.
I don’t think that is the only objection. The reason we got on this topic was the need for confession to a priest. I think that is also one of the roots of his objection. He denies the sacramental principle that Christ gave to the church. He may object to Latin, too.It seems, Richard, that the only objection you have to the CC’s doctrine on mortal and venial sin is the terminology, right? Well, that and the fact that it’s the CC that teaches it.
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heiscominginthe
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Where is it written that we are to pray to the saints dead in Christ or to the angels or to Mary in the bible? Not one place is scripture does it show the apostles praying to anyone other then Jesus.
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heiscominginthe
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What good is the confessing until the actual crucifixian? Only once the death of our Lord was complete could confession unto salvation be effective. What good is the cart if it is before the horse?
Show me in scripture where it is written that we are to pray to any one other then our Lord?
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heiscominginthe
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PRmerger
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Yes, indeed!prmerger: So, if yelling at your children(unwarranted, I presume) is a sin, as you say, of not treating them like Christ; then we cold also say, that we sin against each other, when we don’t treat each other as Christ! This would be a violation of the second greatest commandment!
We are guilty of sinning against our neighbor, and against God Himself, when we do not treat others with respect, 1beleevr.
Charity is the theological virtue by which we love God above all things for his own sake, and our neighbor as ourselves for the love of God. CCC 1822
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PRmerger
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I believe you are quite mistaken, 1beleevr. The priest is not the only one drinking from the cup.
Why does that bother you, BTW, even if it *were *true that the priest is the only one drinking from the cup?
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PRmerger
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Did Jesus not “seek the dead” at the Transfiguration? Weren’t Elijah and Moses “dead”?
We also know from St. John’s Gospel that whoever believes in Him shall have eternal LIFE. That means when you die and go to heaven you are ALIVE. No one who is in heaven is “dead in Christ.”
And, you are under the mistaken impression that it must be written in the Bible for it to be part of God’s Divine Word. Remember, your own Bible does not make that claim.
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PRmerger
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See 1 Tim 2:1-4. St. Paul exhorts us to pray for each other. That’s all we Catholics are doing when we pray to saints. Asking them to pray for us.
Also, see
Rom. 15:30–32
Eph. 6:18–20
Col. 4:3, 1
Thess. 5:25,
2 Thess. 3:1
Praying for others is a good and holy thing to do. And, of course, it’s all done in Christ’s name. We worship Christ alone and pray to the saints (that is, ask for their intercession) just as Christ wants us to do.
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guanophore
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Yes. That is why the commandments are summed up in the Law of Love.prmerger: So, if yelling at your children(unwarranted, I presume) is a sin, as you say, of not treating them like Christ; then we cold also say, that we sin against each other, when we don’t treat each other as Christ! This would be a violation of the second greatest commandment!
Well, there have been some extremists that say we are talking to demons and such. I don’t know if it is a “NEED” really. Perhaps I could go through my whole life without talking to my siblings, parents, children, etc. It would be kinda strange, since we are members of the same family. In Heb. 11 we are given a compendium of faithful members of the Kingdom, then advised SINCE we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us also…guan: I may be wrong, but I can’t remember any posts, where non-catholics have told you that you CAN’T pray throught the saints, or Mary for that matter! We just question the NEED to do so!
They are there to witness our efforts, to inspire, encourage, and be an example to us. WHy would we not wish to take advantage of such a great cloud of witnesses?
I believe you can infer that. Jesus ordained His Apostles to hear confessions, retain, or remit sins. This is how He set things up. The Apostles passed this authority on to their successors. God gave His authority to forgive sins “to men” as scripture testifies. This is the teaching and practice of the Apostles. What I wonder is, why would one NOT want to confess to the one who has been authorized to remit the sins? Seems like not taking advantage of a great gift.Bottom line is, reading scripture and believing that what one person says is true, without researching it, or praying for discernment from the Holy Spirit, is a risky undertaking
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guanophore
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You seem to be laboring under the misapprehension that all things pertaining to the life of faith are “written”. This is part of the error of Sola Scriptura.
The saints are not “dead” but alive forevermore. We don’t pray to “Mary in the Bible” but to Mary in heaven.
This may come as a great shock to you heis,but not everything essential to the Christian faith is found in the Bible. The list of books that belong in the bible is not even in the bible!
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SHW
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Thank you.shw: Good post!
I hope to still be saved at my death (free of mortal sin) so that I can then inherit eternal life. Some things can change in the Church. It is part of the “binding and loosing” power and authority given to the Church by Christ.
Holy Communion must be taken by the priest under the appearances of both bread and wine as was done at the Last Supper, but this is not mandated for the laity. The Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity of Jesus Christ is present under the appearances of both the bread and the wine, so if you receive only one of them, you still have received both His Body and His Blood. This is miraculous and is done by the Holy Spirit through the priest’s special words and actions.
Matthew 16:18-19
And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it. 19 And I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven. (cf. Matthew 18:18)
Another example is priests being allowed to marry. This is a discipline which can be changed in the Latin Church, but it will not be changed since Jesus wanted an unmarried priesthood (spiritual eunuchs) for the sake of His kingdom.
Matthew 19:12
For there are eunuchs who were born thus from their mother’s womb, and there are eunuchs who were made eunuchs by men, and there are eunuchs who have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven’s sake. He who is able to accept it, let him accept it.
Paul also preached on this. In the Early Latin Church of Paul’s time, once men became Christians and then priests/bishops, they no longer were allowed to have sexual relations with their wives. When their wives died, they were not allowed to remarry. If a man was married more than once (wife died and then he remarried), then he was not even allowed to become a priest or deacon. Later on these rules were relaxed and chaos and sin was the result since men cared more about their wives and families and the resulting nepotism than they cared about serving God. God is a jealous God. (Deuteronomy 4:24, Luke 14:26)
1 Corinthians 7:32-33
But I want you to be without care. He who is unmarried cares for the things of the Lord—how he may please the Lord. 33 But he who is married cares about the things of the world—how he may please his wife.
1 Timothy 3:2
A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, temperate, sober-minded, of good behavior, hospitable, able to teach;
1 Timothy 3:12
Let deacons be the husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well.
Ambrose of Milan (died 397 A.D.) wrote:
But what shall I say about chastity, when only one and no second union is allowed? As regards marriage, the law is, not to marry again, nor to seek union with another wife.** It seems strange to many why impediment should be caused by a second marriage entered on before baptism, so as to prevent election to the clerical office, and to the reception of the gift of ordination**; seeing that even crimes are not wont to stand in the way, if they have been put away in the sacrament of baptism. But we must learn, that in baptism sin can be forgiven, but law cannot be abolished. In the case of marriage there is no sin, but there is a law. Whatever sin there is can be put away, whatever law there is cannot be laid aside in marriage. - On the duties of Clergy:1:257 (De Officiis Ministrorum)
Some rules in the Bible were of cultural origin and they do not apply to our culture today. For example: Women were told to have very long hair as a head covering (1 Corinthians 11:13-16) and men were to have short hair (no longer than shoulder length, I think) since this denoted both femininity and manliness in their culture, respectively. Their tunics were of two different lengths (longer for women, shorter for men) for this same reason.
Women were told to cover their heads in church for modesty’s sake because they are the weaker sex (1 Corinthians 11:4-10) since even the seraphim cover their faces with two of their six wings as a sign of respect to God (Isaiah 6:1–3) as they adore Jesus Christ on Catholic Church altars. (Angels including seraphim constantly adore the Blessed Sacrament in all Catholic Churches throughout the world. Amazing!)
This rule for women to cover their heads in Church was made because women wore very fancy hairstyles with ornate decorations and they were a distraction in church. This would be a sin against modesty. Men were told to not cover their heads in church as a sign of their authority. However, as time went by, women started vying for attention and personal glory by wearing ornate hats and actually trying to outdo each other by their stylish hats! Since the original purpose of the head coverings (modesty) was no longer practiced, the rule was removed from the Code of Canon Law.
Another such now obsolete law was that women and men were not allowed to sit together as a family in church in those days. This was because they still remembered the separation of men and women in the Jewish temple and carried it forth into Christian worship practices. This is no longer valid for our culture so it is no longer a rule of Canon Law.
to be continued…
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SHW
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Continued:
However, things such as allowing women priests, contraception, divorce, and abortion are sins against “faith and/or morals” so they cannot ever be allowed to be taught and practiced by members of the Catholic Church and this is why they cannot ever be legitimately mandated through the “binding and loosing” power and authority of the Church.
However, things such as allowing women priests, contraception, divorce, and abortion are sins against “faith and/or morals” so they cannot ever be allowed to be taught and practiced by members of the Catholic Church and this is why they cannot ever be legitimately mandated through the “binding and loosing” power and authority of the Church.
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1beleevr
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guanophore: In one of your earlier posts, you bemoaned the fact that some have indicated that you shouldn’t pray through Mary or the saints; when in fact, it was a catholic who started the thread"Why won’t Protestants pray through Mary and the saints?" While I applaud anyone who is loyal to what they believe in, we must also remember that because of free will, we don’t always agree on things spiritual! To me the greatest gift, is still the gift of salvation, and Easter is still more important than Christmas! And I don’t believe that if you don’t confess to a priest, that you are bound for hell(unless, maybe you’re a catholic).
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