Jesus Christ is our only 'mediator' as stated by St. Paul

[bicolmonk]

prmerger: God bless you for supporting your fellow catholics:thumbsup: Being anal, is not so much a sign of disrespect, as it is pointing out that someone is stubborn, as some have said about me! I also remember being called ignorant, and blind! But knowing that I am accepted by God, allows me to be rejected by man. I believe we also, at least give the impression, that we challenge others faith! this could stem from our devotion to our own faith, and passion to defend it:thumbsup: I don’t believe that I knowingly criticize or “bash” the catholic religion, but it may be taken as such! Like the 3 catholic churches I have been in(for weddings and funerals of friends), communion has been done as I described, with the priest being the only one drinking from the cup! All that I have read about communion, the Lord’s Supper, the Last Supper, etc., portrays Christ passing the cup around to His disciples, and them all taking their own piece of unleavened bread! A catholic friend of mine, a co-worker, and I were having a discussion about communion; and he asked me how our church did it> I told him, just like Jesus and His disciples did it. He said, “That’s why youcouldn’t partake of communion at a catholic church, because you are not a catholic! I said, :But I am a Christian!” I said something else, and he said, “are you bashing catholics?” No, I replied. just asking a question!One last thing about treating others like we would Christ. If I wanted to be a jerk, I could have called elvisman or any other peson on this forum, something a lot worse! But I do believe that we all are obsessive about something, and anal retentive, is a term used to describe someone who can’t or won’t see the other person’s point of view, because it conflicts with theirs; what they have been taught! I think we need to look at each person as if they were Christ, in blue jeans or a dress, and treat them with love, respect and tolerance, probably the hardest to do! Let me apologize to elvisman, and any other catholics, whom I may have offended in the last 5 months! You know, as far as the communion, it may just be how these catholic churches do it(including my friend’s church

1 Corinthians 27 Therefore whosoever shall eat this bread, or drink the chalice of the Lord unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and of the blood of the Lord. OR eat or drink either species you receive the Lord wholly, substantially, completely. It doesn’t mean that if you receive only the bread that you receive half of the Lord. I am glad you are not Catholic 1beleevr cuz that makes you hunger more for what we do. Do you ever question other faith? Or just Catholics?

 

[Richard_Kastner]

Not true … Read James 5:16

“Therefore confess your sins to one another, and pray for one another, that you may be healed.”

It is clear from my reading of scripture that there two types of sin. These would be sins against God’s law of love.

Matt 22:37Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38This is the first and great commandment.
39And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
40On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

In your verse from James, he is talking about the second. About our relations to our fellow man. Our Lord tells us how to deal with this in Matt 5

Matt 5:23Therefore if thou bring thy gift to the altar, and there rememberest that thy brother hath ought against thee;
24Leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way; first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift.

And in Matt 18 Peter asks 21Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times? 22Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven. Then Jesus goes on to give the parable of the righteous and evil servants after which He says.

34And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.
35So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.

James5:14Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord:
15And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him.
16Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.

So, what your v. in James is talking about is reconciliation between humans. You will notice that the elders are to anoint and pray in the name of the Lord who is the only one that can forgive sins. I guess my post should have more properly read 'God is the only one that can forgive sins." Our forgiveness of one another is necessary for our own salvation, because if we forgive not, our heavenly Father will not forgive us and this is by our own request every time we pray The Lord’s Prayer Matt 6: 12And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors. You see brb2 this is what the Cross is all about, FORGIVENESS!!!

 

[PRmerger]

So, what your v. in James is talking about is reconciliation between humans. You will notice that the elders are to anoint and pray in the name of the Lord who is the only one that can forgive sins. I guess my post should have more properly read 'God is the only one that can forgive sins." Our forgiveness of one another is necessary for our own salvation, because if we forgive not, our heavenly Father will not forgive us and this is by our own request every time we pray The Lord’s Prayer Matt 6: 12And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors. You see brb2 this is what the Cross is all about, FORGIVENESS!!!

How do you interpret John 20:23, Richard, in light of forgiveness of sins? How does one “retain” someone’s sin?

 

[Richard_Kastner]

How do you interpret John 20:23, Richard, in light of forgiveness of sins? How does one “retain” someone’s sin?

I get the feeling that you don’t really want to know what my interpretation is at all, but merely want to argue. For the sake of those who may want to know an alternate view, what Jesus is expressing here is a confidence that the apostle who through the instruction of Jesus words and the power of the Holy Spirit would not forgive any sins that had not already been forgiven in heaven or retain any sins that had not already been retained in heaven. The same is true for binding and loosing in Matt 16:19And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. By the way the keys to the kingdom of heaven are the words that Jesus gave to them and us.

 

[PRmerger]

I get the feeling that you don’t really want to know what my interpretation is at all, but merely want to argue.

Richard, the entire point of this forum is to ask questions and then provide arguments (i.e. “argue”) supporting your viewpoint and countering another’s. So, yes, I truly want to know your interpretation, and yes, I want to “argue” with you. And, yes, I do enjoy arguing.

For the sake of those who may want to know an alternate view, what Jesus is expressing here is a confidence that the apostle who through the instruction of Jesus words and the power of the Holy Spirit would not forgive any sins that had not already been forgiven in heaven or retain any sins that had not already been retained in heaven.

I don’t understand this sentence. Could you possibly re-phrase?

 

[Richard_Kastner]

I don’t understand this sentence. Could you possibly re-phrase?

For the sake of those who may want to know an alternate view, what Jesus is expressing here is a confidence that the apostle who through the instruction of Jesus words and the power of the Holy Spirit would not forgive any sins that had not already been forgiven in heaven or retain any sins that had not already been retained in heaven.

I don’t know if I can make it any clearer, but I will try. Just remember. You asked for it. I believe that Jesus is saying that the power to forgive sins rests solely with God and through His instruction and the power of His Spirit the apostles would not bind or loose forgive or retain anything that had not already been bound or loosed forgiven or retained in Heaven.

Jn 14:10Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
11Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works’ sake.
12Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.
13And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.
14If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.
15If ye love me, keep my commandments.
16And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
17Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
18I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.
19Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.
20At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.
21He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

Jn20: 22And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:
23Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.

You will notice in v. 22 of Jn that Jesus breaths on them. What He is doing here is giving the apostles the power of His Spirit. This is the same power that He breathed into man at creation Gen 2: 7And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul and is the Former rain of Joel2:23Be glad then, ye children of Zion, and rejoice in the LORD your God: for he hath given you the former rain moderately, and he will cause to come down for you the rain, the former rain, and the latter rain in the first month. The former rain was Jesus breathing on them in Jn 20 22. The latter rain being the Spirits comming onto the apostles at Pentecost. Peter describes this in Acts 2:14But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words: 15For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day. 16But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; 17And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
I believe there is a parallel between the former and latter rain falling on the apostles and what will happen and is happening right now in the last days of this sinful planet. There will be the former rain and the latter rain and the words of Joel will once again ring true.
17And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:

 

[freedomwriter]

I get the feeling that you don’t really want to know what my interpretation is at all, but merely want to argue. For the sake of those who may want to know an alternate view, what Jesus is expressing here is a confidence that the apostle who through the instruction of Jesus words and the power of the Holy Spirit would not forgive any sins that had not already been forgiven in heaven or retain any sins that had not already been retained in heaven. The same is true for binding and loosing in Matt 16:19And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. By the way the keys to the kingdom of heaven are the words that Jesus gave to them and us.

Finally someone else got it right. No one is given the right to forgive sins in the priest sense. We don’t need to confess are sins to anyone else but Christ. God Bless you Richard.

 

[PRmerger]

I don’t know if I can make it any clearer, but I will try.

Thank you.

Just remember. You asked for it

That is an unnecessary comment, Richard.

I believe that Jesus is saying that the power to forgive sins rests solely with God and through His instruction and the power of His Spirit the apostles would not bind or loose forgive or retain anything that had not already been bound or loosed forgiven or retained in Heaven.

Ok. That’s quite consistent with Catholic teaching!

Again, you seem to be arguing against Catholic teaching, when in actuality you agree with it, Richard! It is not an “alternate” view.

So when the apostles retain a sin, it has already been retained in heaven.

BTW, the only way for an apostle to know whether to retain a sin or forgive it, is if it’s been confessed to them.

 

[1beleevr]

bicolmonk: I wouldn’t go as far as to say that I’m glad that I’m not a catholic, but where I am in my Christian walk, is a perfect fit:thumbsup:And I only call the One who is worthy of that title, Holy Father; that would be the Almighty Living God:thumbsup: I don’t feel the NEED to confess to a priest, and I can go out and do Matthew 25:31-40, and Matthew 28:20. Going out this weeekend by the way! So far, though, it does seem as though the catholics are the most contentious; even though I speak with, and question other religions!1Thessalonians 5:21:thumbsup:

 

[freedomwriter]

Thank you.

That is an unnecessary comment, Richard.

Ok. That’s quite consistent with Catholic teaching!

Again, you seem to be arguing against Catholic teaching, when in actuality you agree with it, Richard! It is not an “alternate” view.

So when the apostles retain a sin, it has already been retained in heaven.

BTW, the only way for an apostle to know whether to retain a sin or forgive it, is if it’s been confessed to them.

I think you got it backwards. What is already retained or forgiven in heaven can be proclaimed by the apostles. Not if they had been confessed to them

 

[PRmerger]

I think you got it backwards. What is already retained or forgiven in heaven can be proclaimed by the apostles. Not if they had been confessed to them

Is that what Scripture says?

 

[heiscominginthe]

You are not making any sense, heis. First to admit that Jesus talked with Moses and Elijah, then you say that they are “dead”. Was Jesus talking to “dead” people?

Do you think the rest of us cannot communicate with them because we are not God?

Well, many who have been made alive in spirit are in heaven. They know what is going on here on earth, and can communicate with us about it.

Everyone was held in death. Did not Samuel appear to Saul, though he were dead?

 

[heiscominginthe]

Finally someone else got it right. No one is given the right to forgive sins in the priest sense. We don’t need to confess are sins to anyone else but Christ. God Bless you Richard.

This is where I believe the confusion lies. I believe there are sins men commit against God and only God can forgive them and I believe there are sins man commits againts men as well as God.

I believe if a person sins against you, it is then up to you to forgive that person. Yet, would he still not have to ask God for forgiveness?

And why would a believer who is born again through Christ not forgive, for it is written, he who forgives is forgiven.

 

[aball1035]

This is where I believe the confusion lies. I believe there are sins men commit against God and only God can forgive them and I believe there are sins man commits againts men as well as God.

I believe if a person sins against you, it is then up to you to forgive that person. Yet, would he still not have to ask God for forgiveness?

And why would a believer who is born again through Christ not forgive, for it is written, he who forgives is forgiven.

I’m wondering if you could give me quotes of any early Church Father who believed Confession to a priest wasn’t necessary

 

[Bill_Pick]

Finally someone else got it right. No one is given the right to forgive sins in the priest sense. We don’t need to confess are sins to anyone else but Christ. God Bless you Richard.

Boy This is new to me I was thinking God had the POWER to do as He please but breathing on people does not made a diff, please do not tell this to, Adam & Eva

 

[brb2]

Matt 5:23Therefore if thou bring thy gift to the altar, and there rememberest that thy brother hath ought against thee;
24Leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way; first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift.

And in Matt 18 Peter asks 21Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times? 22Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven. Then Jesus goes on to give the parable of the righteous and evil servants after which He says.

34And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.
35So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.

our own request every time we pray The Lord’s Prayer Matt 6: 12And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.

QUOTE]

RK … these verses are speaking to the Believers, the elect in Christ. The Lord’s prayer is for the elect to follow … not the unrighteous, who are in need of Forgiveness of Christ. Until we are first forgiven … we can’t truly understand how to forgive those who trespass against us.

Christ always forgives us first. Then, once we are reborn, we have the grace from God to understand we need to forgive others. Nicodemus first believed Christ, was forgiven, and thereafter realized he need to restore to those he had harmed. Same for Paul. Paul was forgiven & transformed … before he gave his life to fellowmen and learned to forgive those legalistic Jews who now desired to persecute him.

 

[elvisman]

prmerger: God bless you for supporting your fellow catholics:thumbsup: Being anal, is not so much a sign of disrespect, as it is pointing out that someone is stubborn, as some have said about me! I also remember being called ignorant, and blind! But knowing that I am accepted by God, allows me to be rejected by man. I believe we also, at least give the impression, that we challenge others faith! this could stem from our devotion to our own faith, and passion to defend it:thumbsup: I don’t believe that I knowingly criticize or “bash” the catholic religion, but it may be taken as such! Like the 3 catholic churches I have been in(for weddings and funerals of friends), communion has been done as I described, with the priest being the only one drinking from the cup! All that I have read about communion, the Lord’s Supper, the Last Supper, etc., portrays Christ passing the cup around to His disciples, and them all taking their own piece of unleavened bread! A catholic friend of mine, a co-worker, and I were having a discussion about communion; and he asked me how our church did it> I told him, just like Jesus and His disciples did it. He said, “That’s why youcouldn’t partake of communion at a catholic church, because you are not a catholic! I said, :But I am a Christian!” I said something else, and he said, “are you bashing catholics?” No, I replied. just asking a question!One last thing about treating others like we would Christ. If I wanted to be a jerk, I could have called elvisman or any other peson on this forum, something a lot worse! But I do believe that we all are obsessive about something, and anal retentive, is a term used to describe someone who can’t or won’t see the other person’s point of view, because it conflicts with theirs; what they have been taught! I think we need to look at each person as if they were Christ, in blue jeans or a dress, and treat them with love, respect and tolerance, probably the hardest to do! Let me apologize to elvisman, and any other catholics, whom I may have offended in the last 5 months! You know, as far as the communion, it may just be how these catholic churches do it(including my friend’s church

I find it more insulting when you run from my answers to your posts - as in Post #390, (several pages back).

**I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt, though. Maybe you just couldn’t answer it.

 

[guanophore]

Finally someone else got it right. No one is given the right to forgive sins in the priest sense. We don’t need to confess are sins to anyone else but Christ. God Bless you Richard.

Why do you call yourself “Catholic” when you obviously are not?

 

[guanophore]

I think you got it backwards. What is already retained or forgiven in heaven can be proclaimed by the apostles. Not if they had been confessed to them

This really does not make any sense. There would be no need to breathe upon the Apostles and authorize them to forgive and remit sins. Jesus already gave them instructions and empowerment on preaching years before this. Besides, sins are not forgiven until they are repented of, and people don’t repent until they believe, and people don’t believe until they hear the Word. Therefore, it has not already been done in heaven.

 

[guanophore]

Everyone was held in death. Did not Samuel appear to Saul, though he were dead?

Not a bit. He was very much alive, active, talkative, and well aware of what was going in here on earth. His appearance was just like that of Moses and Elijah.

If they were “held in death” then they certainly seemed to behave quite “alive”. I think you just made this up.